SEC

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Anonymous User
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SEC

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Oct 23, 2010 10:54 pm

have any 2Ls heard from the SEC?

Anonymous User
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Re: SEC

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Oct 23, 2010 11:33 pm

I hope not. I just sent in my application. However, it does say that applications are reviewed on a rolling basis.

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Re: SEC

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Oct 23, 2010 11:48 pm

I still haven't heard anything and I interviewed during OCI two months ago.

2LLLL
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Re: SEC

Postby 2LLLL » Sun Oct 24, 2010 5:59 pm

I've heard that their hiring committee met last week, but I haven't heard anything from them

Danteshek
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Re: SEC

Postby Danteshek » Sun Oct 24, 2010 6:20 pm

2L hiring process is not like 1L process. It is entirely decentralized, with each division/office making the decisions rather than a single hiring committee. If you are thinking about working at the SEC, you should read Harry Markopolos' book. And if you get an offer, you should honestly assess your credentials (industry experience, knowledge of finance) to determine you should be at the SEC in the first place. At the very least, you should be able to pass the CFA Level I exam before you get hired.

Anonymous User
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Re: SEC

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Oct 24, 2010 6:29 pm

Even for the Enforcement division? I don't think so. I met someone last week who had been litigating for the SEC for 7+ years, and he didn't mention that a CFA certification was beneficial to be in the Enforcement division...

Danteshek
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Re: SEC

Postby Danteshek » Sun Oct 24, 2010 6:33 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Even for the Enforcement division? I don't think so. I met someone last week who had been litigating for the SEC for 7+ years, and he didn't mention that a CFA certification was beneficial to be in the Enforcement division...


The problem with the SEC is that it is filled with bumbling idiots who don't know anything about finance. And that includes the Enforcement Division. If you want to join the SEC and become part of the problem, be my guest.

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BruceWayne
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Re: SEC

Postby BruceWayne » Sun Oct 24, 2010 6:37 pm

Danteshek wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Even for the Enforcement division? I don't think so. I met someone last week who had been litigating for the SEC for 7+ years, and he didn't mention that a CFA certification was beneficial to be in the Enforcement division...


The problem with the SEC is that it is filled with bumbling idiots who don't know anything about finance. And that includes the Enforcement Division. If you want to join the SEC and become part of the problem, be my guest.


Hmmm. You know looking back at what I learned about the SEC in regards to the Great Depression etc. you've really hit on something here. If you really think about it, to be able to fulfill the purpose of the SEC, you'd have to have a very good understanding of corporate finance, securities, the capital markets etc.

Danteshek
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Re: SEC

Postby Danteshek » Sun Oct 24, 2010 6:41 pm

BruceWayne wrote:
Danteshek wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Even for the Enforcement division? I don't think so. I met someone last week who had been litigating for the SEC for 7+ years, and he didn't mention that a CFA certification was beneficial to be in the Enforcement division...


The problem with the SEC is that it is filled with bumbling idiots who don't know anything about finance. And that includes the Enforcement Division. If you want to join the SEC and become part of the problem, be my guest.


Hmmm. You know looking back at what I learned about the SEC in regards to the Great Depression etc. you've really hit on something here. If you really think about it, to be able to fulfill the purpose of the SEC, you'd have to have a very good understanding of corporate finance, securities, the capital markets etc.


No shit.

Nothing pisses me off more than meeting law students who dream about working for the SEC and then (of course) going to work in the securities industry.

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Re: SEC

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Oct 24, 2010 6:47 pm

The problem with the SEC is that it is filled with bumbling idiots who don't know anything about finance. And that includes the Enforcement Division. If you want to join the SEC and become part of the problem, be my guest.



I personally think that the SEC needs to be filled with intelligent (top schools, top grades) individuals who are dedicated to public service and regulating the financial markets in particular. Most of the recent problems have involved individuals who are not dedicated to the Commission, and who have been too understanding and willing to give breaks to their friends, people who they trust too much, on the outside. Most of those people have the requisite experience that you think is necessary to work for the commission. On the other hand, I think that people who are smart and driven can easily learn during law school and within the Commission what it takes to protect investors and the markets.

Danteshek
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Re: SEC

Postby Danteshek » Sun Oct 24, 2010 6:49 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
The problem with the SEC is that it is filled with bumbling idiots who don't know anything about finance. And that includes the Enforcement Division. If you want to join the SEC and become part of the problem, be my guest.



I personally think that the SEC needs to be filled with intelligent (top schools, top grades) individuals who are dedicated to public service and regulating the financial markets in particular. Most of the recent problems have involved individuals who are not dedicated to the Commission, and who have been too understanding and willing to give breaks to their friends, people who they trust too much, on the outside. Most of those people have the requisite experience that you think is necessary to work for the commission. On the other hand, I think that people who are smart and driven can easily learn during law school and within the Commission what it takes to protect investors and the markets.


No. The only way you can learn about the financial services industry is to work within it. And without that knowledge you cannot regulate effectively. Fortunately the SEC is beginning to recognize this fact. Approximately 90% of the 1L Summer Honors Interns last summer had significant industry experience. Your attitude is precisely what got the SEC in trouble in the first place. When the SEC investigated Madoff, not a single member of the examination team knew anything about derivatives. They did not understand that one could only realistically own $1 billion in OEX puts (out of $9 billion in the market) to protect his stocks in a split-strike conversion strategy. And his portfolio demanded that he have between $3 billion to $65 billion. Smart people from good schools who have no industry experience are not capable of spotting this kind of thing.
Last edited by Danteshek on Sun Oct 24, 2010 6:56 pm, edited 3 times in total.

Anonymous User
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Re: SEC

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Oct 24, 2010 6:54 pm

Well, it does make sense, since, what, 10-15 are hired directly our of law school?

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Re: SEC

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Oct 24, 2010 7:01 pm

Wait, we just learned that in my Securities Regulation class. In fact, we spent two classes talking about the Maddoff problem. Did they not cover that at Loyola? Strange.

Danteshek
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Re: SEC

Postby Danteshek » Sun Oct 24, 2010 7:08 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Wait, we just learned that in my Securities Regulation class. In fact, we spent two classes talking about the Maddoff problem. Did they not cover that at Loyola? Strange.


It must be nice to have 20/20 hindsight. Good luck discovering the next scam with what you learned in "Securities Regulation". What makes you dangerous is that you do not realize how ignorant you are.

PS. I spent the last three months writing an article for Law Review about the SEC and Whistle-blowers. I also worked at the SEC last summer. And I worked in the investment management industry for four years before law school.
Last edited by Danteshek on Sun Oct 24, 2010 7:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Anonymous User
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Re: SEC

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Oct 24, 2010 7:09 pm

Danteshek wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Wait, we just learned that in my Securities Regulation class. In fact, we spent two classes talking about the Maddoff problem. Did they not cover that at Loyola? Strange.


Must be nice to have 20/20 hindsight. What makes you dangerous is that you do not realize how ignorant you are.



woah with the hatin

Anonymous User
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Re: SEC

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Oct 24, 2010 7:42 pm

Whoa, thanks for your credentials. I'm sure that you will land a 2L internship. There are 150 of them. If you can't get a paid one, you will probably get an unpaid one. You can also try for the volunteer program. Anyways, good luck, and I look forward to possibly working with you.

Danteshek
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Re: SEC

Postby Danteshek » Sun Oct 24, 2010 7:48 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Whoa, thanks for your credentials. I'm sure that you will land a 2L internship. There are 150 of them. If you can't get a paid one, you will probably get an unpaid one. You can also try for the volunteer program. Anyways, good luck, and I look forward to possibly working with you.


No thanks. One summer at SEC was more than enough. I'm either going to DOJ Tax Division or working for a Federal District Judge.

TheFriendlyBarber
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Re: SEC

Postby TheFriendlyBarber » Mon Oct 25, 2010 12:28 pm

Danteshek wrote:I'm very pleased with my brief. I'm pretty sure I'll get an A like last semester. First round of arguments was this morning.


Danteshek wrote:http://www.docstoc.com/docs/29386602/Ou ... nt-Conduct

This is the email I sent to about 80 friends and family

Attached is my appellate brief for this semester. The topic is very interesting - the outrageous government conduct defense (technically it's not a defense, rather it's a claim to dismiss an indictment). This doctrine, unlike entrapment, is available to defendants who are predisposed to commit the crime. Unfortunately, the doctrine is basically dead - it hasn't been successfully invoked in the 9th Circuit since United States v. Green in 1971. However, it remains available to the federal courts just in case the government behaves especially badly. I argue that in this case, the government indeed has crossed the threshold into truly outrageous conduct.

My first round of oral argument was this Saturday. If I successfully navigate the next few rounds, I may have the chance to argue at the 9th Circuit, in front of the same judges who decided the cases I refer to in my brief.


Ahahahahahahahah!

1Levening2013
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Re: SEC

Postby 1Levening2013 » Mon Oct 25, 2010 12:48 pm

Danteshek wrote:2L hiring process is not like 1L process. It is entirely decentralized, with each division/office making the decisions rather than a single hiring committee. If you are thinking about working at the SEC, you should read Harry Markopolos' book. And if you get an offer, you should honestly assess your credentials (industry experience, knowledge of finance) to determine you should be at the SEC in the first place. At the very least, you should be able to pass the CFA Level I exam before you get hired.


with all due respect, i dont really see what having CFA level 1 will do to really help you with work at the SEC. i see later in the thread you listed your credentials, but as someone with 6+yrs of experience at a hedge fund, i think you'd pick up a lot more from some other base of knowledge. CFA 1 (and the certification in general) is heavily accounting focused (despite obviously testing sections on basic knowledge of derivatives, etc), and not 100% sure how this relates directly to enforcement. Generally I think a broad base of knowledge about how markets function, how business actually is executed (broker/client relationships, etc), etc. would be much more valuable than knowledge of p/e ratios, etc.

i guess the point of this post is more so to express that idea that i think law students in general think that working in coporate/securities/m&A law will require them to be able produce complex financial models. in reality, that's the job of the analysts at banks, hedge funds, PE firms--obviously the knowledge won't hurt you, but i am getting the sense that a lot of these people would rather be on the capital markets side of a deal rather than the legal side

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Re: SEC

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Oct 25, 2010 12:54 pm

What's the SEC deadline? Even if it's rolling, they probably don't really get going until that has passed. Just a thought.

Danteshek
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Re: SEC

Postby Danteshek » Mon Oct 25, 2010 1:22 pm

1Levening2013 wrote:
Danteshek wrote:2L hiring process is not like 1L process. It is entirely decentralized, with each division/office making the decisions rather than a single hiring committee. If you are thinking about working at the SEC, you should read Harry Markopolos' book. And if you get an offer, you should honestly assess your credentials (industry experience, knowledge of finance) to determine you should be at the SEC in the first place. At the very least, you should be able to pass the CFA Level I exam before you get hired.


with all due respect, i dont really see what having CFA level 1 will do to really help you with work at the SEC. i see later in the thread you listed your credentials, but as someone with 6+yrs of experience at a hedge fund, i think you'd pick up a lot more from some other base of knowledge. CFA 1 (and the certification in general) is heavily accounting focused (despite obviously testing sections on basic knowledge of derivatives, etc), and not 100% sure how this relates directly to enforcement. Generally I think a broad base of knowledge about how markets function, how business actually is executed (broker/client relationships, etc), etc. would be much more valuable than knowledge of p/e ratios, etc.

i guess the point of this post is more so to express that idea that i think law students in general think that working in coporate/securities/m&A law will require them to be able produce complex financial models. in reality, that's the job of the analysts at banks, hedge funds, PE firms--obviously the knowledge won't hurt you, but i am getting the sense that a lot of these people would rather be on the capital markets side of a deal rather than the legal side



That's why I said "at the very least." Harry Markopolos said in his book he thinks that CFA Level 1 should be the bare minimum in terms of knowledge. He also thinks less than 20% of the attorney's at the SEC even have that basic understanding.

Obviously it is better to have more experience, depending on the kind of work you do at the SEC. For instance, it would have helped to have derivatives traders investigating Madoff, just like it would make sense to have former brokers investigate brokers.

SEC attorneys should be subject to periodic examinations to ensure their competency. If they don't pass they should be fired. Teachers have to meet certain standards, why not SEC attorneys? This is another point Markopolos made. CFA (or CAIA) would be a good start. Do you know of a better exam?

The knowledge is relevant to Enforcement because Enforcement is 90% investigation and settlement negotiation (they only conduct a few trials a year). Enforcement attorneys cannot effectively conduct investigations unless they understand the products. I wish the SEC had the balls to bring more cases to trial, but unfortunately that is not the case.

The SEC dropped the ball not just on Madoff, but also mutual fund market timing and auction rate securities. Massachusettes Securities Division and NY AG did far more than the SEC did to investigate these scandals. Eventually the SEC was embarrassed into acting, but by then it was too late.

You are absolutely right that 90% of applicants to the SEC are really only interested in working on capital markets side. It is disgusting. If I were in charge I'd make every new hire sign a contract saying they would not work for a SEC regulated entity for 3-5 years after their tenure at the SEC.

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Re: SEC

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Oct 25, 2010 2:01 pm

[quote="Danteshek] If I were in charge I'd make every new hire sign a contract saying they would not work for a SEC regulated entity for 3-5 years after their tenure at the SEC.[/quote]


Yeah, indentured servitude sounds like a great way to lure top-flight talent

Danteshek
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Re: SEC

Postby Danteshek » Mon Oct 25, 2010 2:27 pm

No thanks. SEC needs ethical attorneys. The revolving door is a huge problem. The so-called "elite" should be defending crooks on Wall Street, not protecting investors. Any attorney who actually thinks it is morally acceptable to accept money from those crooks has no business working for the SEC. You should feel ashamed of yourself for wanting to deceive the taxpayers and profit at their expense.

I should not be sharing what I know with you.

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Re: SEC

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Oct 25, 2010 8:56 pm

As a recent SEC intern, I must agree (in spirit - not detail) with the above 'Danteshek' poster. SEC work is not overly-complicated from a legal standpoint. For enforcement, it seems the majority of cases are based on fairly simple theories that arrive from the drudgery of digging through boxes of records/documents. I fail to see how a top-notch legal mind from Harvard/Yale is required for such work. In fact, I might worry that they would lose interest.

Policy work, to the contrary, requires inherent familiarity with financial innovation that is not taught in the academic setting. If people say that regulators are consistently behind the complexity of the market, I would venture to say that academics are usually even further behind. More attorneys at the SEC are employed in policy-making Divisions and Offices than in enforcement. Especially now, where Dodd-Frank requires 100s of rules to be promulgated by in the coming years, it is most important that the commission hire people with actual, fresh market experience. From my perspective, it seems this has been the exact goal of the commission recently.

However, like most parts of the legal market, the commission might suddenly roll out of bed and realize there are unemployed T-14 students and grads to be had, and become complete name snobs. You never know.

Anonymous User
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Re: SEC

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Oct 26, 2010 12:27 am

^ They're making it pretty clear (I'm interning there now) that most of the people they are hiring have work experience. Few of the students in the current internship crop will really have a shot of getting in at this point with a permanent position.

But for enforcement, where I am, it's definitely not too difficult to get a handle on what is going on with a little bit of reading. So I like it (not being a finance major or anything).

Now, excuse me while I leave this thread before I get hit with ego...




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