What's the truth here?

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ZachOda
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What's the truth here?

Postby ZachOda » Tue Oct 19, 2010 8:52 pm

Okay, so I am just about to send out applications soon, and I want an idea of what I'm necessarily getting myself into from people who are going through the process now. Is the legal market that bad? No, I will not be going to a T14, I can't afford it with my loans from UG. And no, I don't mind working for a mid-sized firm. But if I were to go to an upper T2 or mid T1 (the schools who will probably be giving me the best money), am I looking at a future at McDonalds? Are there literally no firms hiring, even for the top students from the schools. I just can't believe that the 70K average salaries and 90% job rates are made up. Yes, I accept that there may be some pseudo jobs created to make stats look good, but this can't be the fate of all non T14 grads. What am I missing?

Thanks guys

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D. H2Oman
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Re: What's the truth here?

Postby D. H2Oman » Tue Oct 19, 2010 8:55 pm

ZachOda wrote:Okay, so I am just about to send out applications soon, and I want an idea of what I'm necessarily getting myself into from people who are going through the process now. Is the legal market that bad? No, I will not be going to a T14, I can't afford it with my loans from UG. And no, I don't mind working for a mid-sized firm. But if I were to go to an upper T2 or mid T1 (the schools who will probably be giving me the best money), am I looking at a future at McDonalds? Are there literally no firms hiring, even for the top students from the schools. I just can't believe that the 70K average salaries and 90% job rates are made up. Yes, I accept that there may be some pseudo jobs created to make stats look good, but this can't be the fate of all non T14 grads. What am I missing?

Thanks guys



1. Those stats are made up.

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Kohinoor
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Re: What's the truth here?

Postby Kohinoor » Tue Oct 19, 2010 8:57 pm

ZachOda wrote: But if I were to go to an upper T2 or mid T1 (the schools who will probably be giving me the best money), am I looking at a future at McDonalds?

You wish. Minimum wage AND half off a meal during your shift? Keep dreaming. Just kidding, but no really, McDonalds will consider you a flight risk and not hire you.

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ZachOda
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Re: What's the truth here?

Postby ZachOda » Tue Oct 19, 2010 9:00 pm

Kohinoor wrote:
ZachOda wrote: But if I were to go to an upper T2 or mid T1 (the schools who will probably be giving me the best money), am I looking at a future at McDonalds?

You wish. Minimum wage AND half off a meal during your shift? Keep dreaming. Just kidding, but no really, McDonalds will consider you a flight risk and not hire you.


I actually did work at McDonalds once. That half off a meal during your shift probably took a year off my life.

Anonymous User
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Re: What's the truth here?

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Oct 19, 2010 9:13 pm

ZachOda wrote:Okay, so I am just about to send out applications soon, and I want an idea of what I'm necessarily getting myself into from people who are going through the process now. Is the legal market that bad? No, I will not be going to a T14, I can't afford it with my loans from UG. And no, I don't mind working for a mid-sized firm. But if I were to go to an upper T2 or mid T1 (the schools who will probably be giving me the best money), am I looking at a future at McDonalds? Are there literally no firms hiring, even for the top students from the schools. I just can't believe that the 70K average salaries and 90% job rates are made up. Yes, I accept that there may be some pseudo jobs created to make stats look good, but this can't be the fate of all non T14 grads. What am I missing?

Thanks guys


I am a 2L at a TTTT school and am top 1%. My school is obviously ranked significantly below an upper T2 or mid T1. And, unfortunately we do not have any OCI aside from JAG and some other very small regional firms. Because of a complete lack of help from the CSO, I had to mass mail all the big firms. I only got 2 initial interviews and just 1 cb (out of a shit-ton), but very fortunately I got an offer for a SA at a V100 firm (unless I blow it I should get the full-time offer at the end of the summer b/c the firm had 100% offers this past summer).

Anyway, I've heard from a number of posters that were outside top 1/3 at T14s who did not get offers from OCI, so getting into a T14 doesn't seal the deal by any means. But, what I'm saying is that it is definitely possible to get a 160k job from a shit school and jump ahead of the bottom 2/3 of T14 as long as you are #1 in your class, have a few years WE, are great at interviewing (b/c there WILL NOT be very many interviews), and have some luck.

I'm assuming that if you go to a mid T1 or upper T2 and have the aforementioned line items, you will have an even better chance at a quality big firm job than I did. So take the money as long as you are committed to dominating your first year...

Anything is possibbbbbblllllllllllllllle!

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Re: What's the truth here?

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Oct 19, 2010 9:17 pm

While you can get a job from one of these schools, if your last name isn't either Goldman or Sachs then the gamble isn't worth it.

And I'm saying this as a jobless top 3% student with LR at a T40-50.

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Kohinoor
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Re: What's the truth here?

Postby Kohinoor » Tue Oct 19, 2010 9:26 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
ZachOda wrote:Okay, so I am just about to send out applications soon, and I want an idea of what I'm necessarily getting myself into from people who are going through the process now. Is the legal market that bad? No, I will not be going to a T14, I can't afford it with my loans from UG. And no, I don't mind working for a mid-sized firm. But if I were to go to an upper T2 or mid T1 (the schools who will probably be giving me the best money), am I looking at a future at McDonalds? Are there literally no firms hiring, even for the top students from the schools. I just can't believe that the 70K average salaries and 90% job rates are made up. Yes, I accept that there may be some pseudo jobs created to make stats look good, but this can't be the fate of all non T14 grads. What am I missing?

Thanks guys


I am a 2L at a TTTT school and am top 1%. My school is obviously ranked significantly below an upper T2 or mid T1. And, unfortunately we do not have any OCI aside from JAG and some other very small regional firms. Because of a complete lack of help from the CSO, I had to mass mail all the big firms. I only got 2 initial interviews and just 1 cb (out of a shit-ton), but very fortunately I got an offer for a SA at a V100 firm (unless I blow it I should get the full-time offer at the end of the summer b/c the firm had 100% offers this past summer).

Anyway, I've heard from a number of posters that were outside top 1/3 at T14s who did not get offers from OCI, so getting into a T14 doesn't seal the deal by any means. But, what I'm saying is that it is definitely possible to get a 160k job from a shit school and jump ahead of the bottom 2/3 of T14 as long as you are #1 in your class, have a few years WE, are great at interviewing (b/c there WILL NOT be very many interviews), and have some luck.

I'm assuming that if you go to a mid T1 or upper T2 and have the aforementioned line items, you will have an even better chance at a quality big firm job than I did. So take the money as long as you are committed to dominating your first year...

Anything is possibbbbbblllllllllllllllle!
And if this doesn't work out he can just get struck by lightning and enjoy a career as the Flash.

Miracle
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Re: What's the truth here?

Postby Miracle » Tue Oct 19, 2010 9:26 pm

Im confused about onw thing: what do your loans from undergard have to do with your loans from law school. You stated that you can't afford T14 due to your loans from undergrad... :?:

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Kohinoor
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Re: What's the truth here?

Postby Kohinoor » Tue Oct 19, 2010 9:29 pm

Miracle wrote:Im confused about onw thing: what do your loans from undergard have to do with your loans from law school. You stated that you can't afford T14 due to your loans from undergrad... :?:

Stop fighting the hypo.

Miracle
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Re: What's the truth here?

Postby Miracle » Tue Oct 19, 2010 9:31 pm

Kohinoor wrote:
Miracle wrote:Im confused about onw thing: what do your loans from undergard have to do with your loans from law school. You stated that you can't afford T14 due to your loans from undergrad... :?:

Stop fighting the hypo.


huh?

stinger35
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Re: What's the truth here?

Postby stinger35 » Tue Oct 19, 2010 9:37 pm

Im guessing everyone posting has seen this...but still, each one of the posts/threads basically devolve into this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMvARy0l ... r_embedded

I suppose this open is way more applicable to this conversation though:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZhjhHuMK ... re=related

Honestly, it's actually what you need to know, OP.

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ZachOda
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Re: What's the truth here?

Postby ZachOda » Tue Oct 19, 2010 10:04 pm

Thanks for the info everyone. Sorry that my post was so bleak. It's a rough stretch right now at school and the last thing I wanted to see right before I get the apps out there is this perception that law school is not worth the financial risk.

Miracle- I apologize for not explaining further. I will be paying off these loans myself, and will be getting no aid from my family for law school. I don't want to add any more loans than I absolutely need to, especially if obtaining a high-paying job is this difficult right now

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worldtraveler
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Re: What's the truth here?

Postby worldtraveler » Tue Oct 19, 2010 11:05 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
ZachOda wrote:Okay, so I am just about to send out applications soon, and I want an idea of what I'm necessarily getting myself into from people who are going through the process now. Is the legal market that bad? No, I will not be going to a T14, I can't afford it with my loans from UG. And no, I don't mind working for a mid-sized firm. But if I were to go to an upper T2 or mid T1 (the schools who will probably be giving me the best money), am I looking at a future at McDonalds? Are there literally no firms hiring, even for the top students from the schools. I just can't believe that the 70K average salaries and 90% job rates are made up. Yes, I accept that there may be some pseudo jobs created to make stats look good, but this can't be the fate of all non T14 grads. What am I missing?

Thanks guys


I am a 2L at a TTTT school and am top 1%. My school is obviously ranked significantly below an upper T2 or mid T1. And, unfortunately we do not have any OCI aside from JAG and some other very small regional firms. Because of a complete lack of help from the CSO, I had to mass mail all the big firms. I only got 2 initial interviews and just 1 cb (out of a shit-ton), but very fortunately I got an offer for a SA at a V100 firm (unless I blow it I should get the full-time offer at the end of the summer b/c the firm had 100% offers this past summer).

Anyway, I've heard from a number of posters that were outside top 1/3 at T14s who did not get offers from OCI, so getting into a T14 doesn't seal the deal by any means. But, what I'm saying is that it is definitely possible to get a 160k job from a shit school and jump ahead of the bottom 2/3 of T14 as long as you are #1 in your class, have a few years WE, are great at interviewing (b/c there WILL NOT be very many interviews), and have some luck.

I'm assuming that if you go to a mid T1 or upper T2 and have the aforementioned line items, you will have an even better chance at a quality big firm job than I did. So take the money as long as you are committed to dominating your first year...

Anything is possibbbbbblllllllllllllllle!


What exactly was the CSO supposed to do for you? Everyone mass mails firms themselves. It's called applying for jobs.

Anonymous User
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Re: What's the truth here?

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Oct 19, 2010 11:17 pm

worldtraveler wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
ZachOda wrote:Okay, so I am just about to send out applications soon, and I want an idea of what I'm necessarily getting myself into from people who are going through the process now. Is the legal market that bad? No, I will not be going to a T14, I can't afford it with my loans from UG. And no, I don't mind working for a mid-sized firm. But if I were to go to an upper T2 or mid T1 (the schools who will probably be giving me the best money), am I looking at a future at McDonalds? Are there literally no firms hiring, even for the top students from the schools. I just can't believe that the 70K average salaries and 90% job rates are made up. Yes, I accept that there may be some pseudo jobs created to make stats look good, but this can't be the fate of all non T14 grads. What am I missing?

Thanks guys


I am a 2L at a TTTT school and am top 1%. My school is obviously ranked significantly below an upper T2 or mid T1. And, unfortunately we do not have any OCI aside from JAG and some other very small regional firms. Because of a complete lack of help from the CSO, I had to mass mail all the big firms. I only got 2 initial interviews and just 1 cb (out of a shit-ton), but very fortunately I got an offer for a SA at a V100 firm (unless I blow it I should get the full-time offer at the end of the summer b/c the firm had 100% offers this past summer).

Anyway, I've heard from a number of posters that were outside top 1/3 at T14s who did not get offers from OCI, so getting into a T14 doesn't seal the deal by any means. But, what I'm saying is that it is definitely possible to get a 160k job from a shit school and jump ahead of the bottom 2/3 of T14 as long as you are #1 in your class, have a few years WE, are great at interviewing (b/c there WILL NOT be very many interviews), and have some luck.

I'm assuming that if you go to a mid T1 or upper T2 and have the aforementioned line items, you will have an even better chance at a quality big firm job than I did. So take the money as long as you are committed to dominating your first year...

Anything is possibbbbbblllllllllllllllle!


What exactly was the CSO supposed to do for you? Everyone mass mails firms themselves. It's called applying for jobs.


Suppose I shouldn't have put both of those in the same sentence. What I meant was that because there was next to zero OCI, all I could do was mass mail. I understand that I have to apply for jobs myself, thanks.

stinger35
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Re: What's the truth here?

Postby stinger35 » Tue Oct 19, 2010 11:20 pm

ZachOda wrote:Thanks for the info everyone. Sorry that my post was so bleak. It's a rough stretch right now at school and the last thing I wanted to see right before I get the apps out there is this perception that law school is not worth the financial risk.

Miracle- I apologize for not explaining further. I will be paying off these loans myself, and will be getting no aid from my family for law school. I don't want to add any more loans than I absolutely need to, especially if obtaining a high-paying job is this difficult right now


Even a decent paying job is hard to find right now, especially not coming from a t14. Believe me, I've seen it first hand. As a transfer to a top 10 from a T2, things at my T2 are BAD. REALLY bad. Things inside the top 10, are exponentially, indescribably better. That being said, things aren't great here either.

In regards to "high paying," do some research on the salary curve. It is skewed by the 160,000 salaries more than you can imagine and from around 65 - 130, almost no one is making that range. You might even be better off making less money because then your IBR and LRAP payments are extremely low. Government is probably the best option because of the 10 year option. I can't really see why anyone would go to a 40-70k job at a law firm over some kind of PI (if you have the choice with massive loans).

There will always be people who it works out for, without a doubt, like the TTTT poster above. But seriously, those videos I posted are funny because they are realistic. No matter how many people tell you that it is terrible out there, people just keep thinking "oh, not in my situation, i'll be at the top of the class. those other people either 1) didn't study hard, 2) don't know how to interview. 3) didn't network, 4) didn't try to get a job out of OCI, etc etc etc." That simply is not the case.

Having said all of this, if you really want to be lawyer, the best possible decision is to go somewhere on a FULL ride. You won't have crushing debt, so even if you get some shit job, it won't be the end of the world. But because most people go to law school because they think they can get rich as a lawyer, your expectations should be tempered.

stinger35
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Re: What's the truth here?

Postby stinger35 » Tue Oct 19, 2010 11:23 pm

worldtraveler wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
ZachOda wrote:Okay, so I am just about to send out applications soon, and I want an idea of what I'm necessarily getting myself into from people who are going through the process now. Is the legal market that bad? No, I will not be going to a T14, I can't afford it with my loans from UG. And no, I don't mind working for a mid-sized firm. But if I were to go to an upper T2 or mid T1 (the schools who will probably be giving me the best money), am I looking at a future at McDonalds? Are there literally no firms hiring, even for the top students from the schools. I just can't believe that the 70K average salaries and 90% job rates are made up. Yes, I accept that there may be some pseudo jobs created to make stats look good, but this can't be the fate of all non T14 grads. What am I missing?

Thanks guys


I am a 2L at a TTTT school and am top 1%. My school is obviously ranked significantly below an upper T2 or mid T1. And, unfortunately we do not have any OCI aside from JAG and some other very small regional firms. Because of a complete lack of help from the CSO, I had to mass mail all the big firms. I only got 2 initial interviews and just 1 cb (out of a shit-ton), but very fortunately I got an offer for a SA at a V100 firm (unless I blow it I should get the full-time offer at the end of the summer b/c the firm had 100% offers this past summer).

Anyway, I've heard from a number of posters that were outside top 1/3 at T14s who did not get offers from OCI, so getting into a T14 doesn't seal the deal by any means. But, what I'm saying is that it is definitely possible to get a 160k job from a shit school and jump ahead of the bottom 2/3 of T14 as long as you are #1 in your class, have a few years WE, are great at interviewing (b/c there WILL NOT be very many interviews), and have some luck.

I'm assuming that if you go to a mid T1 or upper T2 and have the aforementioned line items, you will have an even better chance at a quality big firm job than I did. So take the money as long as you are committed to dominating your first year...

Anything is possibbbbbblllllllllllllllle!


What exactly was the CSO supposed to do for you? Everyone mass mails firms themselves. It's called applying for jobs.


I think a lot of CSO's drop the ball on telling you to do that, especially WHEN to do it. During 3L or even during 2L is when they harp on it when you should honestly do it July/August after your first year. Some also do a terrible job of telling you whats out there, especially in terms of government/pi/etc. But other than that I agree.

Aqualibrium
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Re: What's the truth here?

Postby Aqualibrium » Wed Oct 20, 2010 12:18 am

Anonymous User wrote:While you can get a job from one of these schools, if your last name isn't either Goldman or Sachs then the gamble isn't worth it.

And I'm saying this as a jobless top 3% student with LR at a T40-50.



At this point, you need to look in the mirror and realize that the problem is most likely you. Top 3% and LR at any top 50 school should not be totally jobless unless you A) relied soley on oci AND/OR B)absolutely suck at interviewing.

policestate1234
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Re: What's the truth here?

Postby policestate1234 » Wed Oct 20, 2010 12:21 am

Aqualibrium wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:While you can get a job from one of these schools, if your last name isn't either Goldman or Sachs then the gamble isn't worth it.

And I'm saying this as a jobless top 3% student with LR at a T40-50.



At this point, you need to look in the mirror and realize that the problem is most likely you. Top 3% and LR at any top 50 school should not be totally jobless unless you A) relied soley on oci AND/OR B)absolutely suck at interviewing.


nah brah...the market is THAT bad.

Anonymous User
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Re: What's the truth here?

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Oct 20, 2010 12:22 am

stinger35 wrote:I think a lot of CSO's drop the ball on telling you to do that, especially WHEN to do it. During 3L or even during 2L is when they harp on it when you should honestly do it July/August after your first year. Some also do a terrible job of telling you whats out there, especially in terms of government/pi/etc. But other than that I agree.

I think they also make the mistake of telling you just to mass-mail firms not coming to OCI.
You should mass-mail (a) after you make your bid list in july/early aug (firms not on it + firms not coming) and (b) after you get your interview schedule (firms you bid on but didn't get, assuming all lottery). Firms can squeeze you in at OCI or invite to another interview if they like you.

stinger35
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Re: What's the truth here?

Postby stinger35 » Wed Oct 20, 2010 12:23 am

Aqualibrium wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:While you can get a job from one of these schools, if your last name isn't either Goldman or Sachs then the gamble isn't worth it.

And I'm saying this as a jobless top 3% student with LR at a T40-50.



At this point, you need to look in the mirror and realize that the problem is most likely you. Top 3% and LR at any top 50 school should not be totally jobless unless you A) relied soley on oci AND/OR B)absolutely suck at interviewing.


As much as people wanna believe this, it simply isn't always the case. I know several people who A/B don't apply to from a solid T2 that have been doing contract attorney shit for 2-3 years now. I even know a kid from a t10 that has been doing contract shit for 3 years, some of it not even requiring a JD, but I admittedly am not sure about the t10 kids grades or interviewing skills, but he is extremely intelligent. There will always be anecdotal going both ways but from my T2 experience (and other lower ranked Chicago schools that i know people at), shit is bad, even for the top.

Aqualibrium
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Re: What's the truth here?

Postby Aqualibrium » Wed Oct 20, 2010 12:36 am

stinger35 wrote:
Aqualibrium wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:While you can get a job from one of these schools, if your last name isn't either Goldman or Sachs then the gamble isn't worth it.

And I'm saying this as a jobless top 3% student with LR at a T40-50.



At this point, you need to look in the mirror and realize that the problem is most likely you. Top 3% and LR at any top 50 school should not be totally jobless unless you A) relied soley on oci AND/OR B)absolutely suck at interviewing.


As much as people wanna believe this, it simply isn't always the case. I know several people who A/B don't apply to from a solid T2 that have been doing contract attorney shit for 2-3 years now. I even know a kid from a t10 that has been doing contract shit for 3 years, some of it not even requiring a JD, but I admittedly am not sure about the t10 kids grades or interviewing skills, but he is extremely intelligent. There will always be anecdotal going both ways but from my T2 experience (and other lower ranked Chicago schools that i know people at), shit is bad, even for the top.



I just feel like with grades that good, from any respectable school, if you can get in the door you should be able to get a job. If you told me these top 10% LR people were completely shut out, no interviews at all, I'd believe this story more. I just don't see how someone can be a good interviewer and not get a job with such great grades. You may know the people, they may be great to talk to in person, but you've never interviewed them.


Everyone always seems to say: "I know this kid, he's a great person to talk to,fun personable, etc...." The fact is though, I know a bunch of people like that, and it's because I know them that I think that about them. If I met those same people for only 20 mins during an interview I'd probably think they were asses.

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Kohinoor
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Re: What's the truth here?

Postby Kohinoor » Wed Oct 20, 2010 1:40 am

Aqualibrium wrote:I just feel like with grades that good, from any respectable school, if you can get in the door you should be able to get a job. If you told me these top 10% LR people were completely shut out, no interviews at all, I'd believe this story more. I just don't see how someone can be a good interviewer and not get a job with such great grades. You may know the people, they may be great to talk to in person, but you've never interviewed them.


Everyone always seems to say: "I know this kid, he's a great person to talk to,fun personable, etc...." The fact is though, I know a bunch of people like that, and it's because I know them that I think that about them. If I met those same people for only 20 mins during an interview I'd probably think they were asses.
You're right man. It's all them. Good guys always win.

Anonymous User
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Re: What's the truth here?

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Oct 20, 2010 4:19 am

Anonymous User wrote:While you can get a job from one of these schools, if your last name isn't either Goldman or Sachs then the gamble isn't worth it.

And I'm saying this as a jobless top 3% student with LR at a T40-50.


American (or a school in DC market)?

Anonymous User
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Re: What's the truth here?

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Oct 20, 2010 7:07 am



At this point, you need to look in the mirror and realize that the problem is most likely you. Top 3% and LR at any top 50 school should not be totally jobless unless you A) relied soley on oci AND/OR B)absolutely suck at interviewing.




American (or a school in DC market)?


I'm willing to concede that I'm not great at interviewing, but I know plenty of similarly situated people at my school in the same position. More than A/B, my problem was that my school is in the DC/Baltimore area and my only personal ties are to DC. As has been stated here before, DC was a bloodbath this year for anyone outside of HYS (and maybe even for them). You would think that Baltimore would be a cakewalk because my school is pretty dominant in the market, but the firms there that even are hiring (one NLJ250 that has historically been a big hirer from my school has no 2011 summer program) are hiring 1-5 SAs for 2011.

Should I have done more of a mass mail (only sent out about 15 apps) and bid NY? In hindsight, obviously yes. I wish that my school's CSO had said ANYTHING about the benefits of mass mailing and the relative strengths and weaknesses of different markets. As it was, bidding strategy wasn't even raised. And yes, its my fault for not doing the research on my own, but I'm just saying....

Anonymous User
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Re: What's the truth here?

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Oct 20, 2010 7:13 am

^^^^^ This poster again:


The market is just that brutal. I did a callback at a firm that told me it was interviewing 50-60 2Ls for 4-5 SA positions. Do you think that all of those people weren't also top 10% and LR, or otherwise highly qualified for the position?




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