insurance defense

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reasonable_man
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Re: insurance defense

Postby reasonable_man » Thu Nov 04, 2010 3:30 pm

Aqualibrium wrote:
reasonable_man wrote:
XxSpyKEx wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Just curious, say a 100 atty firm does high end ID work, and the 1st yr associates make 135k. How do people feel about that? Is it all about the money, or are you ideologically opposed to working in "shitlaw" ID.


Some people really enjoy the work, even in the lower end stuff. I guess if you enjoy what you do and are okay with the hours, who cares what random schmucks that you don't associate with think (i.e. who cares if a partner at skadden thinks what you do is shit work if you enjoy it)? I think the higher end ID is probably more interesting and challenging work as well (i.e. you aren't likely going to be working on auto negligence claims and shit like that).



Also agree with this... However, it should be noted that NO ID firms, no matter how high end their inventory of cases might be, is offering 135k to start. At the very most 80k or 90k to start and that's high. Starting at a good ID firm is 60 to 80k for the most part.



I've seen firms that are primarily ID that start in the 100-115 range. You're generally spot on RM, but it is never really wise to make such blanket statements. I do get the point you were attempting to make though.



Name one... (Not being a dick, but I really have never seen a PURE ID firm start this high...) Usually they have a more diversified practice..

Aqualibrium
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Re: insurance defense

Postby Aqualibrium » Thu Nov 04, 2010 3:41 pm

reasonable_man wrote:
Aqualibrium wrote:

I've seen firms that are primarily ID that start in the 100-115 range. You're generally spot on RM, but it is never really wise to make such blanket statements. I do get the point you were attempting to make though.



Name one... (Not being a dick, but I really have never seen a PURE ID firm start this high...) Usually they have a more diversified practice..


I suppose the distinction is in my use of the word "primarily," and your use of the word "pure." I don't know any "pure" ID practices, so I couldn't comment. I can name a few "primarily" ID practices though.

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Ahhhnold
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Re: insurance defense

Postby Ahhhnold » Thu Nov 04, 2010 4:42 pm

Aqualibrium wrote:
reasonable_man wrote:
Aqualibrium wrote:

I've seen firms that are primarily ID that start in the 100-115 range. You're generally spot on RM, but it is never really wise to make such blanket statements. I do get the point you were attempting to make though.



Name one... (Not being a dick, but I really have never seen a PURE ID firm start this high...) Usually they have a more diversified practice..


I suppose the distinction is in my use of the word "primarily," and your use of the word "pure." I don't know any "pure" ID practices, so I couldn't comment. I can name a few "primarily" ID practices though.


Don't back down now, name 'em.

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reasonable_man
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Re: insurance defense

Postby reasonable_man » Fri Nov 05, 2010 8:49 am

Aqualibrium wrote:
reasonable_man wrote:
Aqualibrium wrote:

I've seen firms that are primarily ID that start in the 100-115 range. You're generally spot on RM, but it is never really wise to make such blanket statements. I do get the point you were attempting to make though.



Name one... (Not being a dick, but I really have never seen a PURE ID firm start this high...) Usually they have a more diversified practice..


I suppose the distinction is in my use of the word "primarily," and your use of the word "pure." I don't know any "pure" ID practices, so I couldn't comment. I can name a few "primarily" ID practices though.


No. The distinction my friend is that you have no idea what you're talking about. I do. Which is why I can use broad sweeping statements when I want to. Bit just for laughs name one, just one firm that has a practice that is "primarily" ID bases as opposed to purely ID based that pays the type of starting salary you're talking about.

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Ahhhnold
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Re: insurance defense

Postby Ahhhnold » Fri Nov 05, 2010 12:27 pm

reasonable_man wrote:
Aqualibrium wrote:
reasonable_man wrote:
Aqualibrium wrote:

I've seen firms that are primarily ID that start in the 100-115 range. You're generally spot on RM, but it is never really wise to make such blanket statements. I do get the point you were attempting to make though.



Name one... (Not being a dick, but I really have never seen a PURE ID firm start this high...) Usually they have a more diversified practice..


I suppose the distinction is in my use of the word "primarily," and your use of the word "pure." I don't know any "pure" ID practices, so I couldn't comment. I can name a few "primarily" ID practices though.


No. The distinction my friend is that you have no idea what you're talking about. I do. Which is why I can use broad sweeping statements when I want to. Bit just for laughs name one, just one firm that has a practice that is "primarily" ID bases as opposed to purely ID based that pays the type of starting salary you're talking about.


Ohhh Snap!

HamDel
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Re: insurance defense

Postby HamDel » Fri Nov 05, 2010 12:45 pm

You realize you are figuring out what to make of your life, right? I think you need to figure out what it is you really want to do and then chase that instead of settling for some insurance defense crap that you acknowledge is horribly boring, not lucrative, doesn't require that much brainpower, and will only lead to other dead end jobs. Working at a place like that will put a real blemish on your resume, and you need to figure out if you can accept that or if you have what it takes to be doing something else and people just haven't seen it yet. If it's the former good luck to you, but if it's the latter I think you need to reject that offer immediately.

I know this economy sucks and law school loans are hard on everyone, but it's going to get better in a few years. If you can do it I think you should find a public interest job of some kind instead and ride it out for a while. You'll gain litigation skills, have a more interesting experience, and be able to jump to a firm you like later on. Working for a DA's office or in government in some other capacity will make you much more interesting to firms than insurance defense will. Lawyers at firms will see you as definitely inferior with an insurance defense job, but they will just see you as having different experience coming from decent quality public interest. This economy has screwed you, and the question you need to answer now is whether you're going to let it fuck up your life permanently or do something to find your way around it.

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reasonable_man
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Re: insurance defense

Postby reasonable_man » Fri Nov 05, 2010 12:51 pm

HamDel wrote:You realize you are figuring out what to make of your life, right? I think you need to figure out what it is you really want to do and then chase that instead of settling for some insurance defense crap that you acknowledge is horribly boring, not lucrative, doesn't require that much brainpower, and will only lead to other dead end jobs. Working at a place like that will put a real blemish on your resume, and you need to figure out if you can accept that or if you have what it takes to be doing something else and people just haven't seen it yet. If it's the former good luck to you, but if it's the latter I think you need to reject that offer immediately.

I know this economy sucks and law school loans are hard on everyone, but it's going to get better in a few years. If you can do it I think you should find a public interest job of some kind instead and ride it out for a while. You'll gain litigation skills, have a more interesting experience, and be able to jump to a firm you like later on. Working for a DA's office or in government in some other capacity will make you much more interesting to firms than insurance defense will. Lawyers at firms will see you as definitely inferior with an insurance defense job, but they will just see you as having different experience coming from decent quality public interest. This economy has screwed you, and the question you need to answer now is whether you're going to let it fuck up your life permanently or do something to find your way around it.



College Junior or 1L?

Anonymous User
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Re: insurance defense

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Nov 05, 2010 1:17 pm

While that may be an optimistic view, I do think that if you start down the ID road you're going to have a very hard time moving to anything better

HamDel
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Re: insurance defense

Postby HamDel » Fri Nov 05, 2010 1:22 pm

reasonable_man wrote:
HamDel wrote:You realize you are figuring out what to make of your life, right? I think you need to figure out what it is you really want to do and then chase that instead of settling for some insurance defense crap that you acknowledge is horribly boring, not lucrative, doesn't require that much brainpower, and will only lead to other dead end jobs. Working at a place like that will put a real blemish on your resume, and you need to figure out if you can accept that or if you have what it takes to be doing something else and people just haven't seen it yet. If it's the former good luck to you, but if it's the latter I think you need to reject that offer immediately.

I know this economy sucks and law school loans are hard on everyone, but it's going to get better in a few years. If you can do it I think you should find a public interest job of some kind instead and ride it out for a while. You'll gain litigation skills, have a more interesting experience, and be able to jump to a firm you like later on. Working for a DA's office or in government in some other capacity will make you much more interesting to firms than insurance defense will. Lawyers at firms will see you as definitely inferior with an insurance defense job, but they will just see you as having different experience coming from decent quality public interest. This economy has screwed you, and the question you need to answer now is whether you're going to let it fuck up your life permanently or do something to find your way around it.



College Junior or 1L?


I don't know how I'm being pegged as the naively optimistic one in this thread when people are saying "oh yeah go do insurance defense and then switch to high quality plaintiff's work." I'm telling this guy that insurance defense is a DEAD END JOB WITH FEW OR NO EXIT OPTIONS and that he should be very careful to avoid it if at all possible. I'm in my final year at a law school that's probably better than yours with a job lined up at a good firm, and this is my advice. Decent public interest will be better in the long run than insurance defense work in terms of lucrative exit options, and you're an idiot if you believe otherwise.

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reasonable_man
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Re: insurance defense

Postby reasonable_man » Fri Nov 05, 2010 1:40 pm

HamDel wrote:
reasonable_man wrote:
HamDel wrote:You realize you are figuring out what to make of your life, right? I think you need to figure out what it is you really want to do and then chase that instead of settling for some insurance defense crap that you acknowledge is horribly boring, not lucrative, doesn't require that much brainpower, and will only lead to other dead end jobs. Working at a place like that will put a real blemish on your resume, and you need to figure out if you can accept that or if you have what it takes to be doing something else and people just haven't seen it yet. If it's the former good luck to you, but if it's the latter I think you need to reject that offer immediately.

I know this economy sucks and law school loans are hard on everyone, but it's going to get better in a few years. If you can do it I think you should find a public interest job of some kind instead and ride it out for a while. You'll gain litigation skills, have a more interesting experience, and be able to jump to a firm you like later on. Working for a DA's office or in government in some other capacity will make you much more interesting to firms than insurance defense will. Lawyers at firms will see you as definitely inferior with an insurance defense job, but they will just see you as having different experience coming from decent quality public interest. This economy has screwed you, and the question you need to answer now is whether you're going to let it fuck up your life permanently or do something to find your way around it.



College Junior or 1L?


I don't know how I'm being pegged as the naively optimistic one in this thread when people are saying "oh yeah go do insurance defense and then switch to high quality plaintiff's work." I'm telling this guy that insurance defense is a DEAD END JOB WITH FEW OR NO EXIT OPTIONS and that he should be very careful to avoid it if at all possible. I'm in my final year at a law school that's probably better than yours with a job lined up at a good firm, and this is my advice. Decent public interest will be better in the long run than insurance defense work in terms of lucrative exit options, and you're an idiot if you believe otherwise.



Do you have any idea how hard it is to land a public interest job right now?

HamDel
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Re: insurance defense

Postby HamDel » Fri Nov 05, 2010 1:46 pm

reasonable_man wrote:
HamDel wrote:
reasonable_man wrote:
HamDel wrote:You realize you are figuring out what to make of your life, right? I think you need to figure out what it is you really want to do and then chase that instead of settling for some insurance defense crap that you acknowledge is horribly boring, not lucrative, doesn't require that much brainpower, and will only lead to other dead end jobs. Working at a place like that will put a real blemish on your resume, and you need to figure out if you can accept that or if you have what it takes to be doing something else and people just haven't seen it yet. If it's the former good luck to you, but if it's the latter I think you need to reject that offer immediately.

I know this economy sucks and law school loans are hard on everyone, but it's going to get better in a few years. If you can do it I think you should find a public interest job of some kind instead and ride it out for a while. You'll gain litigation skills, have a more interesting experience, and be able to jump to a firm you like later on. Working for a DA's office or in government in some other capacity will make you much more interesting to firms than insurance defense will. Lawyers at firms will see you as definitely inferior with an insurance defense job, but they will just see you as having different experience coming from decent quality public interest. This economy has screwed you, and the question you need to answer now is whether you're going to let it fuck up your life permanently or do something to find your way around it.



College Junior or 1L?


I don't know how I'm being pegged as the naively optimistic one in this thread when people are saying "oh yeah go do insurance defense and then switch to high quality plaintiff's work." I'm telling this guy that insurance defense is a DEAD END JOB WITH FEW OR NO EXIT OPTIONS and that he should be very careful to avoid it if at all possible. I'm in my final year at a law school that's probably better than yours with a job lined up at a good firm, and this is my advice. Decent public interest will be better in the long run than insurance defense work in terms of lucrative exit options, and you're an idiot if you believe otherwise.



Do you have any idea how hard it is to land a public interest job right now?


Sure, it's hard to land any job right now but I got public interest offers though and so did a lot of my friends. It's not impossible and it's stupid to stop trying in the fall of your 2L year, especially when that means permanently disfiguring your resume and shutting every future door just for a summer job.

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XxSpyKEx
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Re: insurance defense

Postby XxSpyKEx » Fri Nov 05, 2010 2:01 pm

reasonable_man wrote:
HamDel wrote:
reasonable_man wrote:

College Junior or 1L?


I don't know how I'm being pegged as the naively optimistic one in this thread when people are saying "oh yeah go do insurance defense and then switch to high quality plaintiff's work." I'm telling this guy that insurance defense is a DEAD END JOB WITH FEW OR NO EXIT OPTIONS and that he should be very careful to avoid it if at all possible. I'm in my final year at a law school that's probably better than yours with a job lined up at a good firm, and this is my advice. Decent public interest will be better in the long run than insurance defense work in terms of lucrative exit options, and you're an idiot if you believe otherwise.



Do you have any idea how hard it is to land a public interest job right now?


Not to mention that working at some DA’s office in the middle of nowhere isn’t going to have a ton of great exit options either. I would imagine, if your goal is to ultimately work at some law firm, you would be better off working at an ID shop (or any law firm for that matter) than working as a DA. I’m volunteering at the local PD’s office this semester and I can tell you first hand that there is next to no research and writing involved for trial level criminal law. Research and writing ability is something that is important to law firms, since very, very few civil cases go to trial and most of your job initially at a law firm is going to be research and writing orientated (primarily writing office memos, and possibly briefs if you are lucky). IMO, neither a small firm (including an ID firm) nor a DA position is going to lead to biglaw or midlaw down the road. But I guess anything is possible. FWIW, we had a substitute prof in my ch.11 class who graduated during the last recession, couldn’t find anything else, so he went into ID for a year or two. Then the dot com bust happened, as did the salary wars for top school grads, and he got into Weil Gotchal simply because he went to school here. Now he’s a partner there (probably making a killing). The likelihood of this happening in the near future is next to none since large law firm model is going to be a lot smaller part overall legal profession in the future based on what has happened so far.

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XxSpyKEx
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Re: insurance defense

Postby XxSpyKEx » Fri Nov 05, 2010 3:23 pm

HamDel wrote:
reasonable_man wrote:
HamDel wrote:
reasonable_man wrote:
College Junior or 1L?


I don't know how I'm being pegged as the naively optimistic one in this thread when people are saying "oh yeah go do insurance defense and then switch to high quality plaintiff's work." I'm telling this guy that insurance defense is a DEAD END JOB WITH FEW OR NO EXIT OPTIONS and that he should be very careful to avoid it if at all possible. I'm in my final year at a law school that's probably better than yours with a job lined up at a good firm, and this is my advice. Decent public interest will be better in the long run than insurance defense work in terms of lucrative exit options, and you're an idiot if you believe otherwise.



Do you have any idea how hard it is to land a public interest job right now?


Sure, it's hard to land any job right now but I got public interest offers though and so did a lot of my friends. It's not impossible and it's stupid to stop trying in the fall of your 2L year, especially when that means permanently disfiguring your resume and shutting every future door just for a summer job.


It all depends on what you want to do. I’m not completely sure what your idea of a great exit option is leaving a DA’s office, but if it’s working at a large law firm, then the likelihood of that is about as slim as if you worked at a ID shop. In fact, working at an ID shop, or any law firm, might be better for trying to lateral into biglaw than working in PI (see my previous post re: research and writing experience). However, your odds of winning the lottery are probably better than getting into biglaw from either path ITE.

scribblehead
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Re: insurance defense

Postby scribblehead » Tue Dec 07, 2010 9:57 pm

Here is the deal with med mal (at least in the NYC area). Also note that my experience is from the Plaintiff side (and I am a practicing attorney admitted to NY 5 yrs ago):

First off, very few "mom n' pop" PI (that's Personal Injury, not Public Interest) do any of their own Med Mal litigation. Most small solo or 2 or 3 partner PI firms simply refer out the med mal work to lawyers (often solos or other small firms) who specialize in this area. Here's a primer on referrals:

When a PI attorney "sends out" a case on referral to another attorney, the referring lawyer takes 1/3 of the ultimate attorney fees in the case. Period. That is the standard referral fee agreement in NYC (and most other states) on PI cases (whether med mal, auto smash, trip n' fall, etc). So if the lawyer it's referred to settles for 90 K, the referring lawyer gets 10 K (or 1/3 of the 1/3). In case you didn't know this, the fee on all PI cases in NY is 1/3 of the settlement/verdict.

But there is a caveat: in med mal (and med mal tort only), there is a "sliding scale" fee that is part of the NY CPLR. Basically on med mal, the fee % is reduced on "whopper" awards - it's quite a complicated formula-but google "ny med mal attorney fees" and you'll be able to see what I mean).

Here's another quirk of med mal: to bring a case, you need an Affadavit of Merit from an MD which affirms under oath that the MD thinks the case had merit based on medical/scientific expertise. This is a total joke. You can find a plaintiff whore MD who will write you an aff of merit for an ingrown toenail or fart that popped out sideways, etc so long as you pay the MD affdavit/file review fee (usually 1500-3500 bucks). The "MD review" quirk was added as window dressing to show stupid laypeople that a "doctor" reviews the case before its filed- this rule is mostly to appease the tort reform dorks). In reality its a joke.

The problem is that none of the clients have any money, so the firm has to front all the fees for the MD aff, the index number, depoisiton transcripts, etc. This can easily run 10-15 K on a standard med mal file, and often far more.

So in short, the way to make money is to make it rain and GET THE CASES! Understand that PI law is mostly a sales job- he who brings IN the case makes the $$$. The "law" itself is very, very boring and the geeks who actually do the paper churning and EBT's (Examination Before Trial, which is NYC's name for a deposition) make peanuts- like 55-65 K tops. It's just boring grunt work and really of no consequence whatsoever as far as getting paid. There are firms (cough cough) who send paralegals to do the depositions and even to court for status conferences and such, and no one really even cares. Remember, this is still shitlaw since personal injury is involved (even though the rainmakers in this gutter out-earn biglaw partners and work 10 hour weeks LOL).

Besides the rainmakers, the only other kids who make $$$ are the ultra-slick trial guys like John Edwards et al. But that insincere bullshit artist act is a God-given gift and cannot be learned anyway, so I wouldn't worry much about it. Try a few trip n' slip trials first and if you win decent $$$ on a broken wrist or other crap injury, you might want to move up to med mal cases and actually learn what you're doing etc. Most of the good NYC med mal guys are old geezers and wouldn't mind letting you tag along and watch a trial or two.

In fact, mostly the old timers are the trial guys since juries tend to believe what old codgers say. Hell, when's the last time you called an old geezer a bullshitter? These grandpas are also good at bossing people around- look at Wilfred Brimley and his diabetes ads: "If you have diabetes, you check your blood sugar and you check it often!" That codger has sold more needles than the Singer Sewing Machine Co.

That's about all there is to know. Here's a personal story: my own grandmother got a Stage IV bedsore in a nursing home and I sent it out to a small med mal firm- they settled for 60 K and I got a hair under 7 K to do nothing more than send them a referral agreement. The best lawyers let the geeks and pack mules churn the paperwork and spend their time getting business. End of story.




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