CCN Students without Offers

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Re: CCN Students without Offers

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Oct 20, 2010 3:00 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
rayiner wrote:
ak13 wrote:
oh, ok. i almost just lost it. i'm very confident in my abilities, my personality and interpersonal skills among many other things. this damn forum has done nothing but destroy my aforementioned confidence.


It'll be fine. Just get good grades and diversify your bids at OCI. Don't be surprised if a lot of your "safety" patent boutiques reject you because they just don't need any more ME people.


Credited. Those of us in bad situations could probably have avoided our present troubles if we had been better informed about how to tackle the job search. The primary piece of advice is: starting before summer break, or perhaps very early during the summer break, find some upperclassmen and ask them what to do. That way, you won't have to try to piece things together like we did, an effort which sometimes leads to catastrophic failure.


I second this. They don't have to be your best friends either. People you work with, older students in school clubs. I'd avoid asking about it at parties or bars because it's boring (although some people really like talking about it). Some 3Ls gave me what would have been amazing advice- a month after OCI.

Or come here, next year this place will have a lot more posters who have been through the process. I know I'll be posting.

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Re: CCN Students without Offers

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Oct 20, 2010 4:36 pm

Anonymous User wrote:But even when there is a student uprising (see: more transfers), the administration doesn't seem to care. I think it's going to take the ridiculousness going public for them to notice. Seriously, someone should write a Pls Help Thx! to Marin next week asking what they needed to do to make their Career Services actually do something to help them attain a job at a time when the school is opening its doors to more students than ever.


Was there actually a student uprising regarding the huge number of transfers taken? I agree that the CLS administration clearly doesn't care what we think (do they care about anything related to student welfare?), but does the alumni community care about their degrees being devalued? Or are they already so disillusioned with their CLS experience that the enormous class size and diluted degree values are just one more minor indignity courtesy of CLS?

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Re: CCN Students without Offers

Postby 12262010 » Wed Oct 20, 2010 4:41 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:But even when there is a student uprising (see: more transfers), the administration doesn't seem to care. I think it's going to take the ridiculousness going public for them to notice. Seriously, someone should write a Pls Help Thx! to Marin next week asking what they needed to do to make their Career Services actually do something to help them attain a job at a time when the school is opening its doors to more students than ever.


Was there actually a student uprising regarding the huge number of transfers taken? I agree that the CLS administration clearly doesn't care what we think (do they care about anything related to student welfare?), but does the alumni community care about their degrees being devalued? Or are they already so disillusioned with their CLS experience that the enormous class size and diluted degree values are just one more minor indignity courtesy of CLS?


No, just a minor tiff in the callback thread.

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Re: CCN Students without Offers

Postby osi » Wed Oct 20, 2010 4:48 pm

Yeah something about transfer students shouldn't be feeling good for "pwning retards at the T25 schools"

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Re: CCN Students without Offers

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Oct 20, 2010 4:51 pm

booyakasha wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:But even when there is a student uprising (see: more transfers), the administration doesn't seem to care. I think it's going to take the ridiculousness going public for them to notice. Seriously, someone should write a Pls Help Thx! to Marin next week asking what they needed to do to make their Career Services actually do something to help them attain a job at a time when the school is opening its doors to more students than ever.


Was there actually a student uprising regarding the huge number of transfers taken? I agree that the CLS administration clearly doesn't care what we think (do they care about anything related to student welfare?), but does the alumni community care about their degrees being devalued? Or are they already so disillusioned with their CLS experience that the enormous class size and diluted degree values are just one more minor indignity courtesy of CLS?


No, just a minor tiff in the callback thread.


Has anyone heard a defense from the administration of taking so many transfers?

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Re: CCN Students without Offers

Postby 12262010 » Wed Oct 20, 2010 4:59 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
booyakasha wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:But even when there is a student uprising (see: more transfers), the administration doesn't seem to care. I think it's going to take the ridiculousness going public for them to notice. Seriously, someone should write a Pls Help Thx! to Marin next week asking what they needed to do to make their Career Services actually do something to help them attain a job at a time when the school is opening its doors to more students than ever.


Was there actually a student uprising regarding the huge number of transfers taken? I agree that the CLS administration clearly doesn't care what we think (do they care about anything related to student welfare?), but does the alumni community care about their degrees being devalued? Or are they already so disillusioned with their CLS experience that the enormous class size and diluted degree values are just one more minor indignity courtesy of CLS?


No, just a minor tiff in the callback thread.


Has anyone heard a defense from the administration of taking so many transfers?


As far as I know, the administration hasn't addressed it at all.

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Re: CCN Students without Offers

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Oct 20, 2010 5:09 pm

Has anyone heard a defense from the administration of taking so many transfers?[/quote]

As far as I know, the administration hasn't addressed it at all.[/quote]

$$$, though I doubt they would put it quite like that.

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Re: CCN Students without Offers

Postby Unemployed » Wed Oct 20, 2010 5:26 pm

Aqualibrium wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:You're giving people a lot less credit for the research that they did. Nobody I know would ever go into OCI thinking they were interviewing with plaintiffs firms (unless they had an interview with Susman). At CLS EIP people were doing tons of research, more than necessary tbh.

Nobody should get shut out of OCI because they bid poorly, and with the level of advice we are getting from OCS we won't know that until after OCI. How do you know if you are "wasting" a bid, when there is no data on GPA cutoffs or whether that firm was over or under bid? How do you know not to bid on your home market where you will get shut out if the data provided doesn't tell you whether 80% of the cbs in that market went to 7/40 people and those people happened to be around or above X GPA? All we have is anecdotes. They are the ones with last year's figures.

There are also things people could do themselves but that OCS could reasonably make a lot easier. They should give candid advice that well-connected 2Ls get from their 3L friends or practicing attorney's. If you get shut out of OCI, OCS should have a spreadsheet with every firm and gov't org not coming to OCI and their contact info so you can get your apps out within a weekend rather than "check the Arizona guide and NALP". They could probably ask students for their spreadsheets and compile them into a list (I have one I would be willing to give).

And I do think OCS should pay more attention to people who might not fare so well at OCI than those who have traditionally done well. Top 25% at CCN doesn't need more than a "go on 15-20 interviews and don't drool on yourself" advice. Bottom 25% needs a personalized game plan. Remember, it's in OCSs best interest to see that everyone is employed. You may think it "dilutes the applicant pool" but I know people from DC or SF who bid on those places, thinking ties would help, and got nothing. That's not the same as thinking Cravath is a plaintiff's firm. That's a reasonable assumption that, because this is a fucked up system that none of us really understands, turns out to be wrong. And having someone in a position of authority to tell those people "hey, last year's data shows that people with your GPA don't do so well at X firm or in X market" would be really helpful.



The critiques you've listed are legit to me. Your OCS obviously has many more data points at their disposal, and you've done a good job of pointing out that they could be used better. All of the criticisms I listed were from people at my school. Apparently, most people at CLS dont have those same issues with preparedness.

I do take issue with one thing you said though:

OCS should have a spreadsheet with every firm and gov't org not coming to OCI and their contact info so you can get your apps out within a weekend rather than "check the Arizona guide and NALP".


Again, these are the kinds of things that I think dilute the applicant pool. If I worked on a spreadsheet for multiple markets all of July and/or got a similar sheet from a 3L buddy (both of which I actually did), but you didn't do any of that, is it fair to me for OCS to just give you a sheet with all the work done already? Is it in their best interest to have employers on the list flooded with any and every candidate, or would it be better if a few students who put in the work and thought about where they were applying sent their apps? Isn't what you're suggesting essentially a resume drop?


I'd be fine with the "sink or swim - do your own research" approach, as long as my tuition $ doesn't go to a bloated and redundant office whose main purpose is to do precisely that. As things stand, we pay extremely high salaries to these "specialists" who do not get involved in the students' career development beyond organizing an annual job fair. They don't give proper bidding advice; they don't give substantive, individualized interview advice; they don't produce useful data which would allow students to do efficient research; and they don't call employers and advocate for struggling students. Why not hire an event coordinator once a year?

Anonymous User wrote:
Boo wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Has anyone heard a defense from the administration of taking so many transfers?


As far as I know, the administration hasn't addressed it at all.


$$$, though I doubt they would put it quite like that.


The dean gave an answer... something to the effect of "transfers bring a fresh perspective and new energy to the community."

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Re: CCN Students without Offers

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Oct 20, 2010 5:33 pm

Unemployed wrote:The dean gave an answer... something to the effect of "transfers bring a fresh perspective and new energy to the community."


i.e., they haven't yet grown disillusioned with CLS?

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Re: CCN Students without Offers

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Oct 20, 2010 6:07 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:But even when there is a student uprising (see: more transfers), the administration doesn't seem to care. I think it's going to take the ridiculousness going public for them to notice. Seriously, someone should write a Pls Help Thx! to Marin next week asking what they needed to do to make their Career Services actually do something to help them attain a job at a time when the school is opening its doors to more students than ever.


Was there actually a student uprising regarding the huge number of transfers taken?

There was a letter by student senate to Schizer last year about the number of transfers... at CLS, I'd say this is as close as we get to an uprising.


Btw, how much do others believe in the 98% employment rate for the class of 2010?

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Re: CCN Students without Offers

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Oct 20, 2010 6:13 pm

Anonymous User wrote:There was a letter by student senate to Schizer last year about the number of transfers... at CLS, I'd say this is as close as we get to an uprising.


And yet they managed to take even more this year. How receptive to student concerns.

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Re: CCN Students without Offers

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Oct 20, 2010 6:18 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:There was a letter by student senate to Schizer last year about the number of transfers... at CLS, I'd say this is as close as we get to an uprising.


And yet they managed to take even more this year. How receptive to student concerns.

Haha, I've been warned that the administration does not look well upon students who criticize the bloated number of transfers while in JG.

But anyway, this should not digress into a blast on transfers. Rather, must re-focus my energy on how much the administration sucks balls. Is Bollinger any better than the Shiz?

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Re: CCN Students without Offers

Postby Unemployed » Wed Oct 20, 2010 6:35 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:But even when there is a student uprising (see: more transfers), the administration doesn't seem to care. I think it's going to take the ridiculousness going public for them to notice. Seriously, someone should write a Pls Help Thx! to Marin next week asking what they needed to do to make their Career Services actually do something to help them attain a job at a time when the school is opening its doors to more students than ever.


Was there actually a student uprising regarding the huge number of transfers taken?

There was a letter by student senate to Schizer last year about the number of transfers... at CLS, I'd say this is as close as we get to an uprising.


Btw, how much do others believe in the 98% employment rate for the class of 2010?


We should LST that figure.

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Re: CCN Students without Offers

Postby UnTouChablE » Wed Oct 20, 2010 6:42 pm

This is not the "complain about my career services department even though most of us still get jobs while most other graduates from law school struggle thread." Shut the fuck up, Columbia is a great school, if you dont get a job it yo fault and now can we get bak to the point of this thread!

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Re: CCN Students without Offers

Postby Unemployed » Wed Oct 20, 2010 6:58 pm

UnTouChablE wrote:This is not the "complain about my career services department even though most of us still get jobs while most other graduates from law school struggle thread." Shut the fuck up, Columbia is a great school, if you dont get a job it yo fault and now can we get bak to the point of this thread!


What a clueless 1L douche :roll: :roll:

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Re: CCN Students without Offers

Postby BaiAilian2013 » Wed Oct 20, 2010 6:59 pm

UnTouChablE wrote:This is not the "complain about my career services department even though most of us still get jobs while most other graduates from law school struggle thread." Shut the fuck up, Columbia is a great school, if you dont get a job it yo fault and now can we get bak to the point of this thread!

That sort of IS what a "CCN students without offers" thread is going to look like, though. I for one am finding it very instructive.

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Re: CCN Students without Offers

Postby Unemployed » Wed Oct 20, 2010 7:05 pm

BaiAilian2013 wrote:
UnTouChablE wrote:This is not the "complain about my career services department even though most of us still get jobs while most other graduates from law school struggle thread." Shut the fuck up, Columbia is a great school, if you dont get a job it yo fault and now can we get bak to the point of this thread!

That sort of IS what a "CCN students without offers" thread is going to look like, though. I for one am finding it very instructive.


I'm sure the CCN students without offers will come out in droves and share their experiences, now that the douchenozzle has told them to STFU and that it's all their fault.

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Re: CCN Students without Offers

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Oct 20, 2010 7:08 pm

UnTouChablE wrote:This is not the "complain about my career services department even though most of us still get jobs while most other graduates from law school struggle thread." ...Columbia is a great school, if you dont get a job it yo fault and now can we get bak to the point of this thread!


The point of the thread is, precisely, "CCN Students without Offers." CCN, as in Columbia, Chicago, NYU. Columbia is included there, and so are its students without jobs, by definition.

And we're not complaining about the career services department. We're complaining about the entire administration.

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Re: CCN Students without Offers

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Oct 20, 2010 7:09 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:There was a letter by student senate to Schizer last year about the number of transfers... at CLS, I'd say this is as close as we get to an uprising.


And yet they managed to take even more this year. How receptive to student concerns.

Haha, I've been warned that the administration does not look well upon students who criticize the bloated number of transfers while in JG.


Story?

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Re: CCN Students without Offers

Postby UnTouChablE » Wed Oct 20, 2010 7:50 pm

It is not about being a douche fellas. The thread started out, "Am top %% at xx and I dont have a job", it allowed ppl to see whether it was a trend that more and more CCN grads were not getting jobs or outliers. Just one data point to judge how the overall legal job market is doing, but bitching as made the thread completely useless.

Am sorry it came out that way but if 60% of those who came out EIP/OCI did so with a job then its not the school its you. Cmonson, work yo ass off and get good grades (easy), if not do the research required to get a job (easy), if you did both and still ended without a job, its something you did wrong.

The traditional path in law in not "have a job waiting when you graduate", shit. But maybe the thread is about "CCN students without offers" talking an shit, just the first couple of pages put me under the wrong impression of what to expect. My fault then, its still a good topic tho, and I'll join in.

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Re: CCN Students without Offers

Postby Unemployed » Wed Oct 20, 2010 7:57 pm

UnTouChablE wrote:It is not about being a douche fellas. The thread started out, "Am top %% at xx and I dont have a job", it allowed ppl to see whether it was a trend that more and more CCN grads were not getting jobs or outliers. Just one data point to judge how the overall legal job market is doing, but bitching as made the thread completely useless.

Am sorry it came out that way but if 60% of those who came out EIP/OCI did so with a job then its not the school its you. Cmonson, work yo ass off and get good grades (easy), if not do the research required to get a job (easy), if you did both and still ended without a job, its something you did wrong.

The traditional path in law in not "have a job waiting when you graduate", shit. But maybe the thread is about "CCN students without offers" talking an shit, just the first couple of pages put me under the wrong impression of what to expect. My fault then, its still a good topic tho, and I'll join in.


You may not be a douche, but you are still a clueless 1L.

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Re: CCN Students without Offers

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Oct 20, 2010 8:04 pm

UnTouChablE wrote:It is not about being a douche fellas. The thread started out, "Am top %% at xx and I dont have a job", it allowed ppl to see whether it was a trend that more and more CCN grads were not getting jobs or outliers. Just one data point to judge how the overall legal job market is doing, but bitching as made the thread completely useless.

Am sorry it came out that way but if 60% of those who came out EIP/OCI did so with a job then its not the school its you. Cmonson, work yo ass off and get good grades (easy), if not do the research required to get a job (easy), if you did both and still ended without a job, its something you did wrong.

The traditional path in law in not "have a job waiting when you graduate", shit. But maybe the thread is about "CCN students without offers" talking an shit, just the first couple of pages put me under the wrong impression of what to expect. My fault then, its still a good topic tho, and I'll join in.


Yes, the traditional path for CCN grads was to have a job waiting after graduation. Pre-ITE, almost all CCN grads who wanted one snagged a job out of OCI. Now, there will be a significant portion of the class who work hard (do not try to tell me and other classmates that we didn't work our asses off 1L year) and do not get a job because there is a curve and someone has to be at the bottom. Firms dramatically cut summer classes- how do you spend time on a law forum and not know this?

Yes, plenty of people at my grade range (around median) have jobs. Plenty don't. Sometimes it may be because you have a toxic personality, that's fine and even before ITE there were CCN people without offers because they were just that socially inept. But there are people who don't have jobs, like has been said many many times in this thread, because they bid incorrectly. And when you are paying 50K a year to go to law school, you are owed a career services department that will tell you when you are wasting your time bidding on a firm or market. You are owed an OCS that will explain to you the ins and out of the process. You are owed an OCS that will tell you-"look, your grades and resume may not cut it this year and we know this because we have crunched the data. Here is a list of firms not coming to OCI. Get your applications out now to increase your chances." Had this been done, I would have no complaints.

Other folks, and stop bashing the transfers. The fact we took 20 extra transfers probably translated into less than 1 extra screening interview at EIP on average.

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Re: CCN Students without Offers

Postby chup » Wed Oct 20, 2010 8:12 pm

UnTouChablE wrote:It is not about being a douche fellas. The thread started out, "Am top %% at xx and I dont have a job", it allowed ppl to see whether it was a trend that more and more CCN grads were not getting jobs or outliers. Just one data point to judge how the overall legal job market is doing, but bitching as made the thread completely useless.

Am sorry it came out that way but if 60% of those who came out EIP/OCI did so with a job then its not the school its you. Cmonson, work yo ass off and get good grades (easy), if not do the research required to get a job (easy), if you did both and still ended without a job, its something you did wrong.

The traditional path in law in not "have a job waiting when you graduate", shit. But maybe the thread is about "CCN students without offers" talking an shit, just the first couple of pages put me under the wrong impression of what to expect. My fault then, its still a good topic tho, and I'll join in.

You're like dood, but less funny.

I mean that in the worst way possible.

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Re: CCN Students without Offers

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Oct 20, 2010 8:34 pm

UnTouChablE wrote:Am sorry it came out that way but if 60% of those who came out EIP/OCI did so with a job then its not the school its you.


Do I need to point out the fallacy in your argument? It's pretty obvious.

UnTouChablE wrote: Cmonson, work yo ass off and get good grades (easy), if not do the research required to get a job (easy), if you did both and still ended without a job, its something you did wrong.


Similarly, are you not familiar with something called a "curve?" If everyone works extremely hard -- and almost everyone did -- there will still be a large number of students with B's or below. It doesn't matter if everyone "deserved" A's. The curve mandates that a large percentage gets B's.

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Re: CCN Students without Offers

Postby UnTouChablE » Wed Oct 20, 2010 8:37 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
UnTouChablE wrote:It is not about being a douche fellas. The thread started out, "Am top %% at xx and I dont have a job", it allowed ppl to see whether it was a trend that more and more CCN grads were not getting jobs or outliers. Just one data point to judge how the overall legal job market is doing, but bitching as made the thread completely useless.

Am sorry it came out that way but if 60% of those who came out EIP/OCI did so with a job then its not the school its you. Cmonson, work yo ass off and get good grades (easy), if not do the research required to get a job (easy), if you did both and still ended without a job, its something you did wrong.

The traditional path in law in not "have a job waiting when you graduate", shit. But maybe the thread is about "CCN students without offers" talking an shit, just the first couple of pages put me under the wrong impression of what to expect. My fault then, its still a good topic tho, and I'll join in.


Yes, the traditional path for CCN grads was to have a job waiting after graduation. Pre-ITE, almost all CCN grads who wanted one snagged a job out of OCI. Now, there will be a significant portion of the class who work hard (do not try to tell me and other classmates that we didn't work our asses off 1L year) and do not get a job because there is a curve and someone has to be at the bottom. Firms dramatically cut summer classes- how do you spend time on a law forum and not know this?

Yes, plenty of people at my grade range (around median) have jobs. Plenty don't. Sometimes it may be because you have a toxic personality, that's fine and even before ITE there were CCN people without offers because they were just that socially inept. But there are people who don't have jobs, like has been said many many times in this thread, because they bid incorrectly. And when you are paying 50K a year to go to law school, you are owed a career services department that will tell you when you are wasting your time bidding on a firm or market. You are owed an OCS that will explain to you the ins and out of the process. You are owed an OCS that will tell you-"look, your grades and resume may not cut it this year and we know this because we have crunched the data. Here is a list of firms not coming to OCI. Get your applications out now to increase your chances." Had this been done, I would have no complaints.

Other folks, and stop bashing the transfers. The fact we took 20 extra transfers probably translated into less than 1 extra screening interview at EIP on average.


I would agree with you except for the fact that I think you could have gotten the necessary information to succeed at OCI/EIP if you really put in the leg work. There was a guy that on UChicago job thread that would just keep asking for any information until he got some, that is the kind of persistence that I cannot see fail to payoff.

Maybe career services should do more (they have been nice to me!) but for someone to miss a 60-70% chance at a job, you need to take ownership. I dont see how you can blame it all on an office made up of administrative kats that dont know/ care to know you.

I might be a 1L but I am a grown-ass man. I have worked hard and long and I have never heard of sum shit were jobs come to you! Thats crazy, but maybe the education is not worth the 150k to some if they missed it at EIP/OCI. If that is what you expected out of law school, there is an argument to be made that you had the wrong motivation. Motivations are personal and cannot really be wrong, but having a good shot at a job is sum crazy shit. I would be mad if I missed out too tho.




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