CCN Students without Offers

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Kohinoor
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Re: CCN Students without Offers

Postby Kohinoor » Wed Oct 20, 2010 9:00 pm

Unemployed wrote:
UnTouChablE wrote:It is not about being a douche fellas. The thread started out, "Am top %% at xx and I dont have a job", it allowed ppl to see whether it was a trend that more and more CCN grads were not getting jobs or outliers. Just one data point to judge how the overall legal job market is doing, but bitching as made the thread completely useless.

Am sorry it came out that way but if 60% of those who came out EIP/OCI did so with a job then its not the school its you. Cmonson, work yo ass off and get good grades (easy), if not do the research required to get a job (easy), if you did both and still ended without a job, its something you did wrong.

The traditional path in law in not "have a job waiting when you graduate", shit. But maybe the thread is about "CCN students without offers" talking an shit, just the first couple of pages put me under the wrong impression of what to expect. My fault then, its still a good topic tho, and I'll join in.


You may not be a douche, but you are still a clueless 1L.

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Re: CCN Students without Offers

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Oct 20, 2010 9:24 pm

UnTouChablE wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
UnTouChablE wrote:It is not about being a douche fellas. The thread started out, "Am top %% at xx and I dont have a job", it allowed ppl to see whether it was a trend that more and more CCN grads were not getting jobs or outliers. Just one data point to judge how the overall legal job market is doing, but bitching as made the thread completely useless.

Am sorry it came out that way but if 60% of those who came out EIP/OCI did so with a job then its not the school its you. Cmonson, work yo ass off and get good grades (easy), if not do the research required to get a job (easy), if you did both and still ended without a job, its something you did wrong.

The traditional path in law in not "have a job waiting when you graduate", shit. But maybe the thread is about "CCN students without offers" talking an shit, just the first couple of pages put me under the wrong impression of what to expect. My fault then, its still a good topic tho, and I'll join in.


Yes, the traditional path for CCN grads was to have a job waiting after graduation. Pre-ITE, almost all CCN grads who wanted one snagged a job out of OCI. Now, there will be a significant portion of the class who work hard (do not try to tell me and other classmates that we didn't work our asses off 1L year) and do not get a job because there is a curve and someone has to be at the bottom. Firms dramatically cut summer classes- how do you spend time on a law forum and not know this?

Yes, plenty of people at my grade range (around median) have jobs. Plenty don't. Sometimes it may be because you have a toxic personality, that's fine and even before ITE there were CCN people without offers because they were just that socially inept. But there are people who don't have jobs, like has been said many many times in this thread, because they bid incorrectly. And when you are paying 50K a year to go to law school, you are owed a career services department that will tell you when you are wasting your time bidding on a firm or market. You are owed an OCS that will explain to you the ins and out of the process. You are owed an OCS that will tell you-"look, your grades and resume may not cut it this year and we know this because we have crunched the data. Here is a list of firms not coming to OCI. Get your applications out now to increase your chances." Had this been done, I would have no complaints.

Other folks, and stop bashing the transfers. The fact we took 20 extra transfers probably translated into less than 1 extra screening interview at EIP on average.


I would agree with you except for the fact that I think you could have gotten the necessary information to succeed at OCI/EIP if you really put in the leg work. There was a guy that on UChicago job thread that would just keep asking for any information until he got some, that is the kind of persistence that I cannot see fail to payoff.

Maybe career services should do more (they have been nice to me!) but for someone to miss a 60-70% chance at a job, you need to take ownership. I dont see how you can blame it all on an office made up of administrative kats that dont know/ care to know you.

I might be a 1L but I am a grown-ass man. I have worked hard and long and I have never heard of sum shit were jobs come to you! Thats crazy, but maybe the education is not worth the 150k to some if they missed it at EIP/OCI. If that is what you expected out of law school, there is an argument to be made that you had the wrong motivation. Motivations are personal and cannot really be wrong, but having a good shot at a job is sum crazy shit. I would be mad if I missed out too tho.


See, now you are speaking as a clueless 1L. It's not a 60% chance overall. For people at the top of the class it's close to 100%, for people below median, probably less than half (but it could be higher).

Nobody is saying they want the jobs to come to them. You still have to have a resume and transcript, ace the interview and the callback. None of the posters in this thread have even come close to sounding as lazy or unassertive as your characterization. And trust me when I say we're all "grown ass men" who worked hard to get here and during 1L year.

What we are saying is that there are certain things that OCS could easily help us with that would increase that % for below median people. One thing is not signing off on bid lists that are obviously built on assumptions that just aren't correct. People who bid on DC, making the logical inference that a DC firm would want to have someone who grew up in/around DC, needed to know that ties really don't help you in that market when HYS is sending tons of people there. And there is precious little information out there to tell them this, short of these law school message boards, which are a dubious source of information, and older students. Anecdotes from XO and TLS are one thing. Advice from OCS based on data from last year is another.

Another thing is researching midlaw firms. It is just much more efficient for them to compile a list of firms and tell people who may need it "send out applications to these." Again, the individual still has to send out the application, but a lot of time is saved on the research end. And when the advice you are getting from OCS is "study hard and get your 2L grades high as possible"- that's valuable time.

There are mistakes I made 1L that I will regret for a long time. But my mistakes in bid strategy/market choice and navigating this process, that is not something I feel I should take full responsibility for, especially when I am paying 50K a year.

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Re: CCN Students without Offers

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Oct 20, 2010 10:37 pm

UnTouChablE wrote:I would agree with you except for the fact that I think you could have gotten the necessary information to succeed at OCI/EIP if you really put in the leg work. There was a guy that on UChicago job thread that would just keep asking for any information until he got some, that is the kind of persistence that I cannot see fail to payoff.

You think it's because we didn't try hard enough? No. Your limited interactions with OCS are useless at best. But your days and days of experience in law school must be much more enlightening than anything we have done.

UnTouChablE wrote: and I'll join in.

please don't.

Anonymous User wrote:Other folks, and stop bashing the transfers. The fact we took 20 extra transfers probably translated into less than 1 extra screening interview at EIP on average.

It's not about bashing the transfers, but is an illustration of how the administration does not put students first (or even in the top 10), and is non-responsive to students' concerns.

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Re: CCN Students without Offers

Postby booboo » Wed Oct 20, 2010 10:50 pm

Is Columbia the only CCN school suffering from this? Following the Columbia OCI threads, it seems like that their student group has been the most vocal, if not because they are getting screwed over the most. This could and should certainly be a strong dissuader for people when they are considering which school between the three they are more apt to attend...

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Re: CCN Students without Offers

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Oct 20, 2010 11:02 pm

I would ask the admissions staff about it. The time between getting admitted and accepting your spot is the only time when you might have at least some power in your relationship with Columbia Law School.

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JG Hall
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Re: CCN Students without Offers

Postby JG Hall » Wed Oct 20, 2010 11:05 pm

booboo wrote:Is Columbia the only CCN school suffering from this? Following the Columbia OCI threads, it seems like that their student group has been the most vocal, if not because they are getting screwed over the most. This could and should certainly be a strong dissuader for people when they are considering which school between the three they are more apt to attend...

I can't say if Columbia is any better/worse than CN, but Columbia has a LOT more active posters on TLS than other CN. (For example, look how long our EIP/offer threads were compared to every other law school school, let alone CN. Our EIP thread was more comprehensive than the NYU spreadsheet, even.) And like you said, we're very vocal.

But unless a substantial percentage of CLSers bid poorly compared to their NYU counterparts, I can't imagine that CLS is doing demonstrably worse than NYU. (That being said, I'll repeat the sentiment that we should be doing better. Much better.)

Also, as mentioned earlier, the Shiz announced today that the class of 2010 has a 98% employment rate. So that's... something.
Last edited by JG Hall on Wed Oct 20, 2010 11:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: CCN Students without Offers

Postby Kohinoor » Wed Oct 20, 2010 11:05 pm

booboo wrote:Is Columbia the only CCN school suffering from this? Following the Columbia OCI threads, it seems like that their student group has been the most vocal, if not because they are getting screwed over the most. This could and should certainly be a strong dissuader for people when they are considering which school between the three they are more apt to attend...

Suffering from what? A 60-70% offer rate is still over a hundred people striking out at OCI. They're simply much less vocal most of the time.

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Re: CCN Students without Offers

Postby booboo » Wed Oct 20, 2010 11:41 pm

JG Hall wrote:
booboo wrote:Is Columbia the only CCN school suffering from this? Following the Columbia OCI threads, it seems like that their student group has been the most vocal, if not because they are getting screwed over the most. This could and should certainly be a strong dissuader for people when they are considering which school between the three they are more apt to attend...

I can't say if Columbia is any better/worse than CN, but Columbia has a LOT more active posters on TLS than other CN. (For example, look how long our EIP/offer threads were compared to every other law school school, let alone CN. Our EIP thread was more comprehensive than the NYU spreadsheet, even.) And like you said, we're very vocal.

But unless a substantial percentage of CLSers bid poorly compared to their NYU counterparts, I can't imagine that CLS is doing demonstrably worse than NYU. (That being said, I'll repeat the sentiment that we should be doing better. Much better.)

Also, as mentioned earlier, the Shiz announced today that the class of 2010 has a 98% employment rate. So that's... something.


Many thanks for that response, it did help answer some questions. I guess I was wondering if the guidance provided by the OCS was of such bad quality that it significantly reduced how well Columbia is placing into these big law firms, which is something that you seem to imply in your parenthetical addition.

Kohinoor wrote:
booboo wrote:Is Columbia the only CCN school suffering from this? Following the Columbia OCI threads, it seems like that their student group has been the most vocal, if not because they are getting screwed over the most. This could and should certainly be a strong dissuader for people when they are considering which school between the three they are more apt to attend...

Suffering from what? A 60-70% offer rate is still over a hundred people striking out at OCI. They're simply much less vocal most of the time.


I guess I was concerned less with the offer rate, which is a bit expected ITE, and more interested with the apparently strong concerns current CLS students have with their OCS. Rampant dissastisfaction, whether it be just or not, leads to overall negativity from the student populace while also becoming a possible deterrent to future students. Investing 200k into an education only to have horrible guidance in the most critical time of that education (as it pertains to future employment) would be just... awful.

But there was an excellent point made somewhere back in this thread about what the 60-70% meant. Now does that include going through the hierarchy of grades and that it is therefore possible probable to get a job being in the upper portion of the bottom third of the class, or that it could be that, for example, only the top 40% are relatively safe, and the latter 60% have random chances of offer based upon work experience, minority status, or some other relevant but non-tangential law school grade component of their profile...?

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Re: CCN Students without Offers

Postby ToTransferOrNot » Wed Oct 20, 2010 11:42 pm

FWIW, OCS is absolutely terrible/useless at Chicago, too. And it's even less justifiable here, considering the significantly smaller number of students.

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Re: CCN Students without Offers

Postby UnTouChablE » Wed Oct 20, 2010 11:49 pm

It would be interesting to see the opinions of students that think they have a good Office of Career Services. What they think makes for a good office of career services.

I think it would be a bad idea to release all their statistics, just because it might cause massive hysteria and ppl would bid badly cause of it but maybe they could be a lot less stingy with information. Over here(Chicago) they make it sound like you are gonna get a job no matter what, I dont feel like that is the best attitude to give anyone, not even Yalie's. But it seems like culture around these parts, so they should expect it when people get angry at them for not getting a job at out 2L OCI.

But with a solid shot like OCI, you shouldn't overburden career services with the blame, if things go astray. They deserve some of blame, for not pushing a more realistic sense of how to get a job and for not giving out more helpful statistics. But both of these shortcomings could have been a none factor if the person put in diligent work. You could do both of these things yourself.

I see the point though about the services that are supposed to be rendered; it should be individually tailored anyways.

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Re: CCN Students without Offers

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Oct 20, 2010 11:49 pm

ToTransferOrNot wrote:FWIW, OCS is absolutely terrible/useless at Chicago, too. And it's even less justifiable here, considering the significantly smaller number of students.


Non-CCN, but Michigan's OCS isn't exactly fantastic either. Most "top" schools have rather weak career services offices, I suspect. I recall a friend of mine half-seriously remarking the other day that we should recruit OCS personnel from lower-ranked schools; they in theory have experience dealing with a tough job market. (Then again, I wouldn't be surprised if their relative hopelessness produces a similar ineptitude.) Come on, guys; it's time you adapted to the present situation and moved beyond boom-time advice like, "Don't make racist jokes in screening interviews" or "Do not get drunk at callbacks" or, perhaps the best of them all, advice of the "when you're deciding between your offers, take firm reps' claims with a grain of salt; they're fighting to get you and are probably sugarcoating the truth" variety.

Untouchable, it is difficult indeed to grapple with so potent an argument as "Career success should be determined by one's speed in figuring out the law firm hiring process." I apologize for helping 1Ls figure out what they should be doing when to maximize their placement success next year. I'm destroying the pristine meritocracy we now celebrate and enjoy. (Of course, I kid. "-cracy" suggests that BigLaw attorneys actually attain power at some point.)

I promise I'm done feeding the troll.
Last edited by Anonymous User on Wed Oct 20, 2010 11:56 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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UnTouChablE
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Re: CCN Students without Offers

Postby UnTouChablE » Wed Oct 20, 2010 11:50 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
ToTransferOrNot wrote:FWIW, OCS is absolutely terrible/useless at Chicago, too. And it's even less justifiable here, considering the significantly smaller number of students.


Non-CCN, but Michigan's OCS isn't exactly fantastic either. Most "top" schools have rather weak career services offices, I suspect. I recall a friend of mine half-seriously remarking the other day that we should recruit OCS personnel from lower-ranked schools; they in theory have experience dealing with a tough job market. (Then again, I wouldn't be surprised if their relative hopelessness produces a similar ineptitude.) Come on, guys; it's time you adapted to the present situation and moved beyond boom-time advice like, "Don't make racist jokes in screening interviews" or "Do not get drunk at callbacks" or, perhaps the best of them all, advice of the "when you're deciding between your offers, take firm reps' claims with a grain of salt; they're fighting to get you and are probably sugarcoating the truth" variety.


LOLLOL

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Re: CCN Students without Offers

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Oct 21, 2010 12:07 am

booboo wrote:
JG Hall wrote:
booboo wrote:Is Columbia the only CCN school suffering from this? Following the Columbia OCI threads, it seems like that their student group has been the most vocal, if not because they are getting screwed over the most. This could and should certainly be a strong dissuader for people when they are considering which school between the three they are more apt to attend...

I can't say if Columbia is any better/worse than CN, but Columbia has a LOT more active posters on TLS than other CN. (For example, look how long our EIP/offer threads were compared to every other law school school, let alone CN. Our EIP thread was more comprehensive than the NYU spreadsheet, even.) And like you said, we're very vocal.

But unless a substantial percentage of CLSers bid poorly compared to their NYU counterparts, I can't imagine that CLS is doing demonstrably worse than NYU. (That being said, I'll repeat the sentiment that we should be doing better. Much better.)

Also, as mentioned earlier, the Shiz announced today that the class of 2010 has a 98% employment rate. So that's... something.


Many thanks for that response, it did help answer some questions. I guess I was wondering if the guidance provided by the OCS was of such bad quality that it significantly reduced how well Columbia is placing into these big law firms, which is something that you seem to imply in your parenthetical addition.

Kohinoor wrote:
booboo wrote:Is Columbia the only CCN school suffering from this? Following the Columbia OCI threads, it seems like that their student group has been the most vocal, if not because they are getting screwed over the most. This could and should certainly be a strong dissuader for people when they are considering which school between the three they are more apt to attend...

Suffering from what? A 60-70% offer rate is still over a hundred people striking out at OCI. They're simply much less vocal most of the time.


I guess I was concerned less with the offer rate, which is a bit expected ITE, and more interested with the apparently strong concerns current CLS students have with their OCS. Rampant dissastisfaction, whether it be just or not, leads to overall negativity from the student populace while also becoming a possible deterrent to future students. Investing 200k into an education only to have horrible guidance in the most critical time of that education (as it pertains to future employment) would be just... awful.

But there was an excellent point made somewhere back in this thread about what the 60-70% meant. Now does that include going through the hierarchy of grades and that it is therefore possible probable to get a job being in the upper portion of the bottom third of the class, or that it could be that, for example, only the top 40% are relatively safe, and the latter 60% have random chances of offer based upon work experience, minority status, or some other relevant but non-tangential law school grade component of their profile...?


As one of the CLS posters in this thread, I can say that the fact you are even asking these questions shows you are already way ahead of most people.

There was a lot of grumbling even at the pre-EIP meeting back in spring. Some students were extremely vocal and OCS just seemed overwhelmed. As for our presence on this forum, I'm not surprised our threads are longer than Chicago's because we have so many more students. I don't know why we seem to have monstrous threads compared to NYU or Harvard. Also, anon posting may mask the fact that 3-4 posters post all the content.

For people in the top 1/3, they are pretty safe ITE as long as they don't bid all on DC, the V15, or another horrific market. That's a lot of people in the class. They're not as concentrated in V10 as they once were, but most have jobs at V25 right now. Most people with really high grades (say top 20%) cruised to offers 2007 style.

When you get into the lower half and around median, you will begin to see problems. URMs are doing very well, not only because of AA but because a lot of them had firm jobs 1L. I would say for a URM going to CCN is almost a no-brainer- you can gross two summers of pay before you even graduate law school. People with good WE also seemed to do well as did transfers (who are included in last years stats and skew the numbers upward).

For people with median (I use median to refer to people probably below median too- because we don't have an actual GPA calculation), no WE and no URM, bidding exclusively on NYC firms usually worked out unless the person was a horrible interview. People at median even had luck with big V20s like Paul Weiss and Debevoise. When people really started having problems was if they were 1) an unremarkable interviewee, or 2) spent a lot of their bids on firms in a bad market- which right now seems to be every market outside NYC. These people could still increase their chances of getting an offer by mass mailing firms not coming to OCI before OCI started, and even mailing firms coming to OCI hoping to pick up extra interview slots, and hitting every hospitality suite. A lot of this, obviously, is hindsight (maybe not for people reading this thread now or in the future.)

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Re: CCN Students without Offers

Postby Aqualibrium » Thu Oct 21, 2010 12:29 am

Another thing is researching midlaw firms. It is just much more efficient for them to compile a list of firms and tell people who may need it "send out applications to these." Again, the individual still has to send out the application, but a lot of time is saved on the research end.


I still think the above is just not fair to the students that actually put in the work and compile a list themselves. I also think it is not in the best interest of the school or the student to have every student mindlessly "spam the list." It dilutes the pool.

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Re: CCN Students without Offers

Postby ToTransferOrNot » Thu Oct 21, 2010 12:39 am

Aqualibrium wrote:
Another thing is researching midlaw firms. It is just much more efficient for them to compile a list of firms and tell people who may need it "send out applications to these." Again, the individual still has to send out the application, but a lot of time is saved on the research end.


I still think the above is just not fair to the students that actually put in the work and compile a list themselves. I also think it is not in the best interest of the school or the student to have every student mindlessly "spam the list." It dilutes the pool.


Your first point is irrelevant, because that's the point - students wouldn't need to do the work themselves if OCS did it.

Your second point holds more water, but it's not persuasive. There's really no difference between getting spammed with 200 or 400 resumes - you're going to be scanning them all in 10 seconds for school/gpa/journals anyway. On the balance, having an OCS that actually provides its students with useful information outweighs any concerns about dilution, in my view, but that's open to honest disagreement.

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Re: CCN Students without Offers

Postby Aqualibrium » Thu Oct 21, 2010 1:03 am

ToTransferOrNot wrote:
Aqualibrium wrote:
Another thing is researching midlaw firms. It is just much more efficient for them to compile a list of firms and tell people who may need it "send out applications to these." Again, the individual still has to send out the application, but a lot of time is saved on the research end.


I still think the above is just not fair to the students that actually put in the work and compile a list themselves. I also think it is not in the best interest of the school or the student to have every student mindlessly "spam the list." It dilutes the pool.


Your first point is irrelevant, because that's the point - students wouldn't need to do the work themselves if OCS did it.

Your second point holds more water, but it's not persuasive. There's really no difference between getting spammed with 200 or 400 resumes - you're going to be scanning them all in 10 seconds for school/gpa/journals anyway. On the balance, having an OCS that actually provides its students with useful information outweighs any concerns about dilution, in my view, but that's open to honest disagreement.


My first point is underscored by my earlier point that students should be doing some of the work themselves. People are screaming that OCS didn't hook them up with a 3L mentor, or give them a list of firms to apply to (I conceded the earlier number crunching thing, if the numbers are at their disposal, they should use them more efficiently). I'm telling you that these are things no on should have had to give to you.

Perhaps it's because I don't go to a school where I felt being top 25% entitled me to a job? I can't tell you how many partners I had lunch with, how many 2L's and 3L's I asked for advice, how many attorneys I contacted out of the blue and said "hey I know this person, and you know them too, would love to pick your brain." I compiled my own list. If I had a question about a practice area or anything, I tapped into the network of attorneys that I had met. I put my self into situations to succeed. Again, my perspective may be off because of the school I go to, but if you gave all the people here screaming about OCS a list of all the firms in a market, I can't imagine the number of mindless, typo riddled, bland apps that would go out.

When you have to do it yourself you put more care into it. You start to look for things that differentiate firms and target specific ones instead of just mass mailing. It weeds the lazy people out. IMO, the lazy people devalue my degree, and make me look bad. I don't want an employer to have to wade through 140 sloppy resumes and cover letters from my school to get to the 10-15 well crafted ones. If my school had just handed out a list of firms in the markets I applied to to everyone, that is exactly what would have happened. Instead, I was very often the only student from my school that applied. Because of that, and because I took the time to craft my app, I stood out. One firm I interviewed with before school started actually later ended up contacting my school to see if they could set up a resume drop to see more of our students.


I just can't fathom someone saying "I shouldn't have to pound the pavement, you should do it for me." When you say OCS should be hooking you up with people to talk to and giving you lists of firms to apply to, that is what I feel you are saying. If you don't grind, you don't eat.
Last edited by Aqualibrium on Thu Oct 21, 2010 1:10 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: CCN Students without Offers

Postby ToTransferOrNot » Thu Oct 21, 2010 1:09 am

What, precisely, do you think OCS is being paid to do? I didn't notice that you conceded the information point earlier though - some common ground there.

Look, I understand the "you should pound the pavement yourself" argument. But I have a problem paying people to sit around in an office, and organize one job fair a year.

Also, the impressive amount of networking you did would not really be dilluted by people having a mail-merge-ready list of firms. You met with attorneys, looked broadly for advice, etc. etc. These are things OCS can't do for people. But the issues with OCS go beyond mere "lack of information" to "incorrect information," and it again falls to the "what in God's name are these people being paid for?" issue.

Edit: And a well-crafted app is going to stand out over a poorly-crafted one, regardless of how many poorly-crafted ones they receive. Will you lose the advantage of being the only student at your school that applied to Firm X? Probably. But so it goes. OCS has a job to do.
Last edited by ToTransferOrNot on Thu Oct 21, 2010 1:11 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: CCN Students without Offers

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Oct 21, 2010 1:11 am

Anonymous User wrote:
booboo wrote:
JG Hall wrote:
booboo wrote:Is Columbia the only CCN school suffering from this? Following the Columbia OCI threads, it seems like that their student group has been the most vocal, if not because they are getting screwed over the most. This could and should certainly be a strong dissuader for people when they are considering which school between the three they are more apt to attend...

I can't say if Columbia is any better/worse than CN, but Columbia has a LOT more active posters on TLS than other CN. (For example, look how long our EIP/offer threads were compared to every other law school school, let alone CN. Our EIP thread was more comprehensive than the NYU spreadsheet, even.) And like you said, we're very vocal.

But unless a substantial percentage of CLSers bid poorly compared to their NYU counterparts, I can't imagine that CLS is doing demonstrably worse than NYU. (That being said, I'll repeat the sentiment that we should be doing better. Much better.)

Also, as mentioned earlier, the Shiz announced today that the class of 2010 has a 98% employment rate. So that's... something.


Many thanks for that response, it did help answer some questions. I guess I was wondering if the guidance provided by the OCS was of such bad quality that it significantly reduced how well Columbia is placing into these big law firms, which is something that you seem to imply in your parenthetical addition.

Kohinoor wrote:
booboo wrote:Is Columbia the only CCN school suffering from this? Following the Columbia OCI threads, it seems like that their student group has been the most vocal, if not because they are getting screwed over the most. This could and should certainly be a strong dissuader for people when they are considering which school between the three they are more apt to attend...

Suffering from what? A 60-70% offer rate is still over a hundred people striking out at OCI. They're simply much less vocal most of the time.


I guess I was concerned less with the offer rate, which is a bit expected ITE, and more interested with the apparently strong concerns current CLS students have with their OCS. Rampant dissastisfaction, whether it be just or not, leads to overall negativity from the student populace while also becoming a possible deterrent to future students. Investing 200k into an education only to have horrible guidance in the most critical time of that education (as it pertains to future employment) would be just... awful.

But there was an excellent point made somewhere back in this thread about what the 60-70% meant. Now does that include going through the hierarchy of grades and that it is therefore possible probable to get a job being in the upper portion of the bottom third of the class, or that it could be that, for example, only the top 40% are relatively safe, and the latter 60% have random chances of offer based upon work experience, minority status, or some other relevant but non-tangential law school grade component of their profile...?

For people in the top 1/3, they are pretty safe ITE as long as they don't bid all on DC, the V15, or another horrific market. That's a lot of people in the class. They're not as concentrated in V10 as they once were, but most have jobs at V25 right now. Most people with really high grades (say top 20%) cruised to offers 2007 style.

let's take a moment to reminisce about the good ol days... http://bottom-law-schools.blogspot.com/ ... kings.html

I would also like to note that, even if there are only a handful of us posting repeatedly in the CLS threads, the "rampant dissatisfaction" with the administration generally and OCS particularly seemingly pervades the entire 2L student body (I don't know enough 3Ls to speak on their behalf, and the 1Ls haven't had enough experience to form a valid opinion.) Problem is, we grumble a lot, but we're not the type of student body to do this --LinkRemoved-- or even thishttp://abovethelaw.com/2010/03/university-of-texas-law-school-looking-for-a-few-good-human-beings/ I went to the "town hall" Schizer held last spring, and the only problems raised were LLMs QoL issues. Maybe one day we'll grow a pair (not me though, tbh).

Aqualibrium
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Re: CCN Students without Offers

Postby Aqualibrium » Thu Oct 21, 2010 1:17 am

ToTransferOrNot wrote:What, precisely, do you think OCS is being paid to do? I didn't notice that you conceded the information point earlier though - some common ground there.

Look, I understand the "you should pound the pavement yourself" argument. But I have a problem paying people to sit around in an office, and organize one job fair a year.

Also, the impressive amount of networking you did would not really be dilluted by people having a mail-merge-ready list of firms. You met with attorneys, looked broadly for advice, etc. etc. These are things OCS can't do for people. But the issues with OCS go beyond mere "lack of information" to "incorrect information," and it again falls to the "what in God's name are these people being paid for?" issue.

Edit: And a well-crafted app is going to stand out over a poorly-crafted one, regardless of how many poorly-crafted ones they receive. Will you lose the advantage of being the only student at your school that applied to Firm X? Probably. But so it goes. OCS has a job to do.



I don't think we really disagree that much here. My issue is this: how much should they do, and what should we be expected to do (I don't think they should do everything, the mail merge thing is overboard to me, and I think that is where you and I disagree)? What the hell do they do on a day to day basis? How do they get new firms to participate in on campus interviews? What's the process for that? Same with resume drops?

There is a fundamental misunderstanding as to what their job function is imo. That, I think, is true for every ocs in the country, and it's their fault.

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Re: CCN Students without Offers

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Oct 21, 2010 1:19 am

Aqualibrium wrote: Perhaps it's because I don't go to a school where I felt being top 25% entitled me to a job?
...
I don't want an employer to have to wade through 140 sloppy resumes and cover letters from my school to get to the 10-15 well crafted ones.

All of your posts indicate you think very poorly of CCN students. As for this dig, why would you assume that just because people are mass-mailing off of a list that they wouldn't put effort into their resumes? The only thing our OCS can do is edit resumes and cover letters. Also, we're perfectly capable of treating a list of firms to mass-mail the same way we did the firms coming to OCI... it's not as if everyone would just spam every firm on the list. My resume paper is too damn expensive for that.

Also, why even bother with this thread if you're clearly not a CCN jobless student, and don't really have any vested interest in them? Is this some kind of mass-mail protectionism?

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Re: CCN Students without Offers

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Oct 21, 2010 1:24 am

Aqualibrium wrote:
ToTransferOrNot wrote:
Aqualibrium wrote:
Another thing is researching midlaw firms. It is just much more efficient for them to compile a list of firms and tell people who may need it "send out applications to these." Again, the individual still has to send out the application, but a lot of time is saved on the research end.


I still think the above is just not fair to the students that actually put in the work and compile a list themselves. I also think it is not in the best interest of the school or the student to have every student mindlessly "spam the list." It dilutes the pool.


Your first point is irrelevant, because that's the point - students wouldn't need to do the work themselves if OCS did it.

Your second point holds more water, but it's not persuasive. There's really no difference between getting spammed with 200 or 400 resumes - you're going to be scanning them all in 10 seconds for school/gpa/journals anyway. On the balance, having an OCS that actually provides its students with useful information outweighs any concerns about dilution, in my view, but that's open to honest disagreement.


My first point is underscored by my earlier point that students should be doing some of the work themselves. People are screaming that OCS didn't hook them up with a 3L mentor, or give them a list of firms to apply to (I conceded the earlier number crunching thing, if the numbers are at their disposal, they should use them more efficiently). I'm telling you that these are things no on should have had to give to you.

Perhaps it's because I don't go to a school where I felt being top 25% entitled me to a job? I can't tell you how many partners I had lunch with, how many 2L's and 3L's I asked for advice, how many attorneys I contacted out of the blue and said "hey I know this person, and you know them too, would love to pick your brain." I compiled my own list. If I had a question about a practice area or anything, I tapped into the network of attorneys that I had met. I put my self into situations to succeed. Again, my perspective may be off because of the school I go to, but if you gave all the people here screaming about OCS a list of all the firms in a market, I can't imagine the number of mindless, typo riddled, bland apps that would go out.

When you have to do it yourself you put more care into it. You start to look for things that differentiate firms and target specific ones instead of just mass mailing. It weeds the lazy people out. IMO, the lazy people devalue my degree, and make me look bad. I don't want an employer to have to wade through 140 sloppy resumes and cover letters from my school to get to the 10-15 well crafted ones.


I just can't fathom someone saying "I shouldn't have to pound the pavement, you should do it for me." When you say OCS should be hooking you up with people to talk to and giving you lists of firms to apply to, that is waht I feel you are saying. If you don't grind, you don't eat.


Of course students should do some of the work themselves- the question is how much. Why not eliminate OCS altogether and have students schedule their own OCI interviews? Personally, I think the overall time saved and stress-relieved, especially if students get their mailings done before classes start, is well worth it. And again, OCS would not be sending out the apps. The students themselves would pick how many firms to mail, in what markets, and how targeted the apps are. You seem to think the students are all either lazy entitled brats or entrepreneurial hustlers with spit-shined resumes. There is a middle group- students who are hard-working and want a job but are quite reasonably overwhelmed by this whole process (or maybe they have a lot more on their plates during the summer than just job-hunting and don't have the time to network or spend trolling XO and TLS for advice).

You've obviously done a lot of work and there's nothing to think that even with an extra bunch of resumes (in an economy with dozens or hundreds of resumes per open position) the employer won't find your well-crafted and typo-free one. You've clearly gone way above and beyond anything we are suggesting OCS do for us. Nobody's asking for the ear of the hiring partner at some midlaw firm or a network of alumni, just a list of non-OCI firms with summer programs and the advice that, if you don't have great grades, you should consider mailing the firms on that list before OCI starts. That's a far cry from an OCS rep who serves as your personal headhunter.

And although it might not benefit a select group of students to have their fellow students provided with a list, it is definitely in the school's best interest to get as many of their students on the radar at places where they have a shot at getting a job.

Aqualibrium
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Re: CCN Students without Offers

Postby Aqualibrium » Thu Oct 21, 2010 1:26 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Aqualibrium wrote: I don't want an employer to have to wade through 140 sloppy resumes and cover letters from my school to get to the 10-15 well crafted ones.

All of your posts indicate you think very poorly of CCN students. As for this dig, why would you assume that just because people are mass-mailing off of a list that they wouldn't put effort into their resumes? The only thing our OCS can do is edit resumes and cover letters.

Also, why even bother with this thread if you're clearly not a CCN jobless student, and don't really have any vested interest in them? Is this some kind of mass-mail protectionism?



I didn't mean to seem like I think poorly of CCN students. In the post you excerpted, I realized it may be seen this way, and I tried to note, multiple times, that my perspective comes from observing my own classmates behaviour at a non-ccn school.

I jumped in on the thread because I think that law students everywhere just don't know what we are supposed to expect from OCS, and what exactly they do for us when we aren't paying attention. I posed the question several times while giving my opinion on specific things. As you noted, compiling mass-mailing lists is one of the things I don't think they should do for us. I have agreed with quite a few other things that posters have said though. The number crunching for you guys is a big one. My school wouldn't benefit from something like that, but at least at CLS from what I've read, the data is there, it is consistent, and it can really be helpful. It's ludicrous that they don't compile these numbers and use them to help you guys out.

pasteurizedmilk
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Re: CCN Students without Offers

Postby pasteurizedmilk » Thu Oct 21, 2010 8:30 am

UnTouChablE wrote:It is not about being a douche fellas. The thread started out, "Am top %% at xx and I dont have a job", it allowed ppl to see whether it was a trend that more and more CCN grads were not getting jobs or outliers. Just one data point to judge how the overall legal job market is doing, but bitching as made the thread completely useless.

Am sorry it came out that way but if 60% of those who came out EIP/OCI did so with a job then its not the school its you. Cmonson, work yo ass off and get good grades (easy), if not do the research required to get a job (easy), if you did both and still ended without a job, its something you did wrong.

The traditional path in law in not "have a job waiting when you graduate", shit. But maybe the thread is about "CCN students without offers" talking an shit, just the first couple of pages put me under the wrong impression of what to expect. My fault then, its still a good topic tho, and I'll join in.


There's more randomness built into the 2L fall recruiting process than your post takes into account. Besides grades, there are a lot of factors that are totally out of your control that can sink potential offers.

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Re: CCN Students without Offers

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Oct 21, 2010 10:15 am

I went to NYU. I dont think the fewer complaints are due to joblessness. I just think OCS is pretty damn good. They send weekly emails on job openings, hold panels, have detailed statistics, and (at least for people I know) managed to secure callbacks for people who srtuck out. They also have a system where students who are on hold at a firm can report it, and they'll call the firm to see what's up. Ive been pretty impressed.

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JazzOne
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Re: CCN Students without Offers

Postby JazzOne » Thu Oct 21, 2010 10:19 am

Kohinoor wrote:
Unemployed wrote:
UnTouChablE wrote:It is not about being a douche fellas. The thread started out, "Am top %% at xx and I dont have a job", it allowed ppl to see whether it was a trend that more and more CCN grads were not getting jobs or outliers. Just one data point to judge how the overall legal job market is doing, but bitching as made the thread completely useless.

Am sorry it came out that way but if 60% of those who came out EIP/OCI did so with a job then its not the school its you. Cmonson, work yo ass off and get good grades (easy), if not do the research required to get a job (easy), if you did both and still ended without a job, its something you did wrong.

The traditional path in law in not "have a job waiting when you graduate", shit. But maybe the thread is about "CCN students without offers" talking an shit, just the first couple of pages put me under the wrong impression of what to expect. My fault then, its still a good topic tho, and I'll join in.


You may not be a douche, but you are still a clueless 1L.




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