Top Law Schools

Does anyone know if these firms recruit on the big name (HYS) campuses for positions? I read an old post on this board that made sense. If a person didn't go to a big undergrad school and have a few years of experience at these firms (me), then a good way to land a position is to go to a top Law school program. Lloyd Blankfein CEO of Goldman himself went to Harvard Law.

a much cheaper/faster/easier way to get there for pple like you is getting your mba rather than jd. GS does recruit some law students for investment banking associate positions, but again you would have a much easier time getting these through an mba program. PE and HF don't recruit from law school b/c law students are completely useless to them. law students have no valuation skills or trading skills or anything else that would be of use to them.

GS hires law students b/c investment banking is not that complicated and the skills are easily picked up by anyone who is smart and they have the resources to train you. HF and PE work requires a deeper understanding or at least some practical experience, and thus they recruit kids who worked at these large banks like GS who already trained. they do not hire pple from law school.

a few lawyers i know were able to make the switch from law to banking, but many of them went back to school to get their mba. you don't necesarrily have to go back to school but it's much easier to since you can then take the recruiting advatages that an mba program offers (like doing their OCI program) rather than just trying to network your way into finance directly from a law firm. i haven't heard of anyone switching directly from law to PE or HF though, because again, lawyers have no valuation or any analytical finance skills for that matter. lawyers work very closely with bankers however, so they have exposure to their work already and it makes much more sense for them to lateral over to banks. while some lawyers do work with HF and PEs they don't really work with their investment generation or valuation side, but rather just with fundraising or closing certain deals, and thus are useless to these places from an investment/finance perspective.

ruski wrote:a much cheaper/faster/easier way to get there for pple like you is getting your mba rather than jd. GS does recruit some law students for investment banking associate positions, but again you would have a much easier time getting these through an mba program. PE and HF don't recruit from law school b/c law students are completely useless to them. law students have no valuation skills or trading skills or anything else that would be of use to them.

GS hires law students b/c investment banking is not that complicated and the skills are easily picked up by anyone who is smart and they have the resources to train you. HF and PE work requires a deeper understanding or at least some practical experience, and thus they recruit kids who worked at these large banks like GS who already trained. they do not hire pple from law school.

a few lawyers i know were able to make the switch from law to banking, but many of them went back to school to get their mba. you don't necesarrily have to go back to school but it's much easier to since you can then take the recruiting advatages that an mba program offers (like doing their OCI program) rather than just trying to network your way into finance directly from a law firm.

Isn't it a lot tougher to get into a top mba program than a top law school though? I mean yes it is difficult to get the numbers to go to Harvard Law, but your chances are better than at Wharton because Harvard law has 500+ first years every year.

doubt it. i think anyone who can score a 175+ on the lsats and go to hls is capable of excelling on gmats as well. also, you don't need to go to harvard mba or wharton to get into banking. any of the top 10 or so school will do. (maybe even more as the stregth of the program depends heavily on their alumni base). i think when we are talking about people at that caliber, they can do whatever they want and excel because they are just intelligent/hardworking/ambitiuo/whatever.

also work experience is VERY important to get into a top mba program. so if you work at a biglaw firm and do reasonably well at the gmats you wouldn't have a problem getting into a top mba program. but if we are talking about getting an mba w/o going to law school and working at a law firm first, then you better have some decent working experience after undergrad. it doesn't have to be GS but it should be something respectable.

^^^ Wharton takes 800 students per year...

It's really 6 of one and a half dozen of the other. The acceptance rate at HBS and GSB are on par with YHS, but at Wharton, Kellogg, etc, its on par with CLS/NYU/Penn.

The real difference is that the two types of programs look at completely different criteria. Business schools want prestigious work experience, law schools want exceptional test scores/grades. The median GMAT and GPA at Wharton are 92-percentile and 60th percentile (3.5 at an Ivy is a bit above median). The median LSAT and GPA at Penn law is 98th percentile and 85th-90th percentile (3.8 is top 10-15% most anywhere).

ruski wrote:doubt it. i think anyone who can score a 175+ on the lsats and go to hls is capable of excelling on gmats as well. also, you don't need to go to harvard mba or wharton to get into banking. any of the top 10 or so school will do. (maybe even more as the stregth of the program depends heavily on their alumni base). i think when we are talking about people at that caliber, they can do whatever they want and excel because they are just intelligent/hardworking/ambitiuo/whatever.

I used Harvard Law and Wharton as examples. My point was that there are simply more open spots in the top say 14 law schools than there are in the top 10 business schools. Additionally, the law school admissions process, unlike that of bschools, is much more about numbers than experience. A 21 year old with no work experience who has a gpa and standardized test score above the 75ths for a top law school is a near lock to get in. That same 21 year old is not going to have much of a shot to get into a top bschool program because the numbers mean less to them, and they have less available space.

Business school may be a cheaper route, but for most of the kids on this site (and most likely op) it is not faster or easier. It will likely take 2+ years to get the type of work experience business schools appreciate, and even then they have to compete for a very limited number of seats in top programs.


*raynier, I didn't realize Wharton admitted so many. Do the rest of the top bschools have a similar amount of seats? I've only ever looked at a few programs, so I always assumed that the number of available seats bschools have is much smaller than law schools.

ruski wrote:doubt it. i think anyone who can score a 175+ on the lsats and go to hls is capable of excelling on gmats as well.

But excelling on gmats isn't a big deal on MBA apps. It's more of a requirement than a factor. 4.0/180 who spend three years waiting tables gets HLS every fucking time. 4.0/800 who did the same gets laughed out of the top MBA programs.

It's hard to say which is harder in general, but for individuals MBA might well be impossible.

I used Harvard Law and Wharton as examples. My point was that there are simply more open spots in the top say 14 law schools than there are in the top 10 business schools.

Stanford is the smallest B school in the M7 and takes 390 students each year. This is more than any T14 school besides HLS, CLS, NYU and GULC.

Overall, there are about as many students each year at M7 business schools as there are in the T14 law schools.

ruski wrote:doubt it. i think anyone who can score a 175+ on the lsats and go to hls is capable of excelling on gmats as well. also, you don't need to go to harvard mba or wharton to get into banking. any of the top 10 or so school will do. (maybe even more as the stregth of the program depends heavily on their alumni base). i think when we are talking about people at that caliber, they can do whatever they want and excel because they are just intelligent/hardworking/ambitiuo/whatever.

also work experience is VERY important to get into a top mba program. so if you work at a biglaw firm and do reasonably well at the gmats you wouldn't have a problem getting into a top mba program. but if we are talking about getting an mba w/o going to law school and working at a law firm first, then you better have some decent working experience after undergrad. it doesn't have to be GS but it should be something respectable.

My situation is I have experience at some of the bigger firms but I was in the back office operations. Many who go to the Top MBA programs have 2 years already as analysts or similar positions. David Rubenstein from Carlyle Group and one of the KKR guys have JD's. Maybe hedge funds wasn't the best example, but Lawyers to me see like they would be needed for leveraged buyout deals. Alot of that is legal paperwork in PE and the math isn't exactly rocket science.

JD just seems to me the better overall path if you can get into a good school and can get some funding. If I didn't go to work for one of the big firms, I wouldn't mind working for a government agency like the SEC which I know has a summer program for Law students.

Desert Fox wrote:

ruski wrote:doubt it. i think anyone who can score a 175+ on the lsats and go to hls is capable of excelling on gmats as well.

But excelling on gmats isn't a big deal on MBA apps. It's more of a requirement than a factor. 4.0/180 who spend three years waiting tables gets HLS every fucking time. 4.0/800 who did the same gets laughed out of the top MBA programs.

It's hard to say which is harder in general, but for individuals MBA might well be impossible.

right that's why i also said that someone who has worked in a biglaw firm (which is GREAT work expeience) and then does reasonably well on gmats is a lock-in for a top mba program. now i know that getting a jd and then mba is expensive, but the few lawyers i know who did it are making well over 1 million so i think it was worth it for them at least.

what i was saying is that OP shouldnt hold out for getting GS, HF, PE out of law school, but if he wants to go back to school later on to get an mba he would be in a great position to get a high paying finance job, which seems to be his goal.

Desert Fox wrote:

ruski wrote:doubt it. i think anyone who can score a 175+ on the lsats and go to hls is capable of excelling on gmats as well.

But excelling on gmats isn't a big deal on MBA apps. It's more of a requirement than a factor. 4.0/180 who spend three years waiting tables gets HLS every fucking time. 4.0/800 who did the same gets laughed out of the top MBA programs.

It's hard to say which is harder in general, but for individuals MBA might well be impossible.

At the same time, what % of the HBS class could rock a top 1% LSAT and came in a top 10% Ivy GPA? As I said above, its apples and oranges.

Aqualibrium wrote:

ruski wrote:doubt it. i think anyone who can score a 175+ on the lsats and go to hls is capable of excelling on gmats as well. also, you don't need to go to harvard mba or wharton to get into banking. any of the top 10 or so school will do. (maybe even more as the stregth of the program depends heavily on their alumni base). i think when we are talking about people at that caliber, they can do whatever they want and excel because they are just intelligent/hardworking/ambitiuo/whatever.

I used Harvard Law and Wharton as examples. My point was that there are simply more open spots in the top say 14 law schools than there are in the top 10 business schools. Additionally, the law school admissions process, unlike that of bschools, is much more about numbers than experience. A 21 year old with no work experience who has a gpa and standardized test score above the 75ths for a top law school is a near lock to get in. That same 21 year old is not going to have much of a shot to get into a top bschool program because the numbers mean less to them, and they have less available space.

Business school may be a cheaper route, but for most of the kids on this site (and most likely op) it is not faster or easier. It will likely take 2+ years to get the type of work experience business schools appreciate, and even then they have to compete for a very limited number of seats in top programs.


*raynier, I didn't realize Wharton admitted so many. Do the rest of the top bschools have a similar amount of seats? I've only ever looked at a few programs, so I always assumed that the number of available seats bschools have is much smaller than law schools.

Top 14 law schools have an equivalent number of seats to the top 9 business schools. Like law schools there is some pretty wide variation in class size with schools like HBS having a class of almost 900 while Haas (UC Berkeley) has only about 250.

From what I've seen business schools credit work experience MUCH more than test scores. My buddy notched 99th percentile on the GMAT last year and couldn't even get sniffed by a T10 business school.

That being said, business school is a joke unless you are already working for a company that will pay for it and give you a promotion after graduation. My friend who couldn't sniff B-school is now making six figures at a hedge fund in DC.

Some ibanks are coming to my CCN for OCI. Apparently ibanks do their summer recruiting a bit later than law firms. As far as PE funds, I don't think they recruit directly, but it seems the best way for a JD (with mediocre connections) to grab one of these spots is either through a well-connected prof or the tried-and-true "exit-option" which comes into play after working in a PE group in biglaw for a few years.

Anonymous User wrote:From what I've seen business schools credit work experience MUCH more than test scores. My buddy notched 99th percentile on the GMAT last year and couldn't even get sniffed by a T10 business school.

That being said, business school is a joke unless you are already working for a company that will pay for it and give you a promotion after graduation. My friend who couldn't sniff B-school is now making six figures at a hedge fund in DC.

How did he land a job at a hedge fund if he couldn't get into a T10 Bschool?

lawschoolman1 wrote:Does anyone know if these firms recruit on the big name (HYS) campuses for positions? I read an old post on this board that made sense. If a person didn't go to a big undergrad school and have a few years of experience at these firms (me), then a good way to land a position is to go to a top Law school program. Lloyd Blankfein CEO of Goldman himself went to Harvard Law.

I don't know why no one has asked yet, but are you looking legal positions, or for banking/finance positions?

What about Harvard JD who already has a CPA? Would he be competitive v. Harvard MBA v. Harvard JD/MBA for hedge fund/private equity?

How did he land a job at a hedge fund if he couldn't get into a T10 Bschool?

Networking and work experience at the Federal Reserve

Anonymous User wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:From what I've seen business schools credit work experience MUCH more than test scores. My buddy notched 99th percentile on the GMAT last year and couldn't even get sniffed by a T10 business school.

That being said, business school is a joke unless you are already working for a company that will pay for it and give you a promotion after graduation. My friend who couldn't sniff B-school is now making six figures at a hedge fund in DC.

How did he land a job at a hedge fund if he couldn't get into a T10 Bschool?

plenty of people working at hedge funds have no chance of getting into a top business school

What exactly stands out about people at HSW,Kellogg,Booth,Sloan,Tuck,Columbia to get them in?

Anonymous User wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:From what I've seen business schools credit work experience MUCH more than test scores. My buddy notched 99th percentile on the GMAT last year and couldn't even get sniffed by a T10 business school.

That being said, business school is a joke unless you are already working for a company that will pay for it and give you a promotion after graduation. My friend who couldn't sniff B-school is now making six figures at a hedge fund in DC.

How did he land a job at a hedge fund if he couldn't get into a T10 Bschool?

plenty of people working at hedge funds have no chance of getting into a top business school

Anonymous User wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:From what I've seen business schools credit work experience MUCH more than test scores. My buddy notched 99th percentile on the GMAT last year and couldn't even get sniffed by a T10 business school.

That being said, business school is a joke unless you are already working for a company that will pay for it and give you a promotion after graduation. My friend who couldn't sniff B-school is now making six figures at a hedge fund in DC.

How did he land a job at a hedge fund if he couldn't get into a T10 Bschool?

plenty of people working at hedge funds have no chance of getting into a top business school

Really? Even this guy w/ HF experience and a 99th percentile GMAT? Yikes. Is it really that hard to get into a M7 school?

Anonymous User wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:From what I've seen business schools credit work experience MUCH more than test scores. My buddy notched 99th percentile on the GMAT last year and couldn't even get sniffed by a T10 business school.

That being said, business school is a joke unless you are already working for a company that will pay for it and give you a promotion after graduation. My friend who couldn't sniff B-school is now making six figures at a hedge fund in DC.

How did he land a job at a hedge fund if he couldn't get into a T10 Bschool?

plenty of people working at hedge funds have no chance of getting into a top business school

Really? Even this guy w/ HF experience and a 99th percentile GMAT? Yikes. Is it really that hard to get into a M7 school?

i didnt mean to say that this guy with those types of statistics would have trouble getting into b-school. i just meant to clarify that not everyone working at a hedge fund is some genius. generally, i feel like there is this mystical view of hedge funds/pe shops/goldman sachs in these forums. it could just be attributed to lack of knowledge, but to be honest, they really are not all that interesting

i didnt mean to say that this guy with those types of statistics would have trouble getting into b-school. i just meant to clarify that not everyone working at a hedge fund is some genius. generally, i feel like there is this mystical view of hedge funds/pe shops/goldman sachs in these forums. it could just be attributed to lack of knowledge, but to be honest, they really are not all that interesting

I don't think anyone has the impression that they're interesting; just at least as interesting as being a biglaw associate, and a far superior alternative to LS. If I could get anything close to HF/PE experience I'd withdraw my LS apps in a heartbeat.

Anonymous User wrote: Really? Even this guy w/ HF experience and a 99th percentile GMAT? Yikes. Is it really that hard to get into a M7 school?

The short answer is no. I'm a Harvard JD/MBA (one of seven in the class of 2014) who had zero work experience when I applied. I ended up deferring to work for a couple of years, but that's beside the point. The reason HBS is full of Goldman Sachs and Mckinsey alumni is self-selection - those are the kind of people that apply so those are the kind of people that get in. HBS is also about 35% women - the reason is probably because only about 30-40% of the applicant pool is female.

If you want to get in to an M7 school, you have to know what you're doing when you apply. Getting into law school was comparatively easy, just have the right numbers and everybody will take you. For b-school you actually have to sell yourself and tell a compelling story.

That said, even with a JD/MBA getting into PE or HF is really really difficult. IBanking is actually a much easier route because PE and HF expect a certain amount of previous banking experience. Now, if you go to law school after working at a bank for a few years it becomes a different story - but you could have gotten into a PE/HF without going to law school just as easily.

Anonymous User wrote:

i didnt mean to say that this guy with those types of statistics would have trouble getting into b-school. i just meant to clarify that not everyone working at a hedge fund is some genius. generally, i feel like there is this mystical view of hedge funds/pe shops/goldman sachs in these forums. it could just be attributed to lack of knowledge, but to be honest, they really are not all that interesting

I don't think anyone has the impression that they're interesting; just at least as interesting as being a biglaw associate, and a far superior alternative to LS. If I could get anything close to HF/PE experience I'd withdraw my LS apps in a heartbeat.

same poster as above....interesting may have been the wrong choice of words. i meant that they are really not all that mysterious/mystical/(choose whatever word you'd like). i'm not specifically pointing to this thread, but i just see it posted on these forums all of the time. i guess it can just be attribute to lack of experience.

as someone currently working at a hedge fund, i just think people are completely going the wrong route if they think going to law school is the way to get into a hedge fund/pe/bb bank. you are much better spending your whole day doing research, networking, applying to jobs, actually hitting the streets at an attempt to find a job. it does not take an ivy degree/advanced degree to land a job at one of these types of firms and work your way up the ladder