Striking out at OCI- a frank discussion

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Re: Striking out at OCI- a frank discussion

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Sep 25, 2010 3:17 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
matty wrote:No, life isn't over. But you're going to have to keep your grades up and hope against hope to get something at 3L OCI, or otherwise start thinking creatively and looking at other options.


God this is so naive. See my last post... It's rough out there.

Yeah, and I made it sound so easy too with my "hope against hope" phrasing :roll:


The point is that if you didn't get something out of 2L OCI, you won't get something out of 3L OCI (no matter what). There are just too few spots open to 3Ls at large firms, and the mere fact that you didn't work at a large firm as a 2L (and hence, did not get an offer from a large firm at the end of your 2L summer) is a HUGE red mark on your application. When you're up against top 1% CCN, executive board of law review, and got an offer from a large firm type people, you really can't compete with that as a 3L that just wasn't good enough to get an offer out of 2L OCI.

Emu Flu
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Re: Striking out at OCI- a frank discussion

Postby Emu Flu » Sat Sep 25, 2010 3:18 pm

Not all in-house positions are dominated by BigLaw transfers. It depends on the field. If a field is for the most part strictly practiced within BigLaw (such as corporate law), then obviously most of the people coming in are from BigLaw. Exceptions to BigLaw include patent prosecution (the primary in-house patent job) and possibly immigration.

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Re: Striking out at OCI- a frank discussion

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Sep 25, 2010 3:24 pm

Kohinoor wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
matty wrote:No, life isn't over. But you're going to have to keep your grades up and hope against hope to get something at 3L OCI, or otherwise start thinking creatively and looking at other options.


God this is so naive. See my last post... It's rough out there.

I had an OCI interviewer tell me in very frank terms that the 3L window is essentially closed.


It's weird because during 2L OCI interviewers are so careful about not saying anything negative or that might make you defensive in a way, and when you are a 3L, OCI interviewers are so blunt. I went to OCI and just stopped by the hospitality suites for the most part and I was really surprised with how blunt the attorneys there were. I recall walking into the 2nd hospitality suite of the day and introducing myself to this attorney that was there, telling her my situation (i.e. how I would also be interested in starting in 2012 and possibly clerking for a year to fill that gap), etc. her immediate response was "NO, we're not hiring 3Ls!" So I just turned around and walked out... It was pretty bad.

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Re: Striking out at OCI- a frank discussion

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Sep 25, 2010 3:27 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Kohinoor wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
matty wrote:No, life isn't over. But you're going to have to keep your grades up and hope against hope to get something at 3L OCI, or otherwise start thinking creatively and looking at other options.


God this is so naive. See my last post... It's rough out there.

I had an OCI interviewer tell me in very frank terms that the 3L window is essentially closed.


It's weird because during 2L OCI interviewers are so careful about not saying anything negative or that might make you defensive in a way, and when you are a 3L, OCI interviewers are so blunt. I went to OCI and just stopped by the hospitality suites for the most part and I was really surprised with how blunt the attorneys there were. I recall walking into the 2nd hospitality suite of the day and introducing myself to this attorney that was there, telling her my situation (i.e. how I would also be interested in starting in 2012 and possibly clerking for a year to fill that gap), etc. her immediate response was "NO, we're not hiring 3Ls!" So I just turned around and walked out... It was pretty bad.

What a bitch. Sorry that happened. What are your plans now?

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Kohinoor
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Re: Striking out at OCI- a frank discussion

Postby Kohinoor » Sat Sep 25, 2010 3:28 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Kohinoor wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
matty wrote:No, life isn't over. But you're going to have to keep your grades up and hope against hope to get something at 3L OCI, or otherwise start thinking creatively and looking at other options.


God this is so naive. See my last post... It's rough out there.

I had an OCI interviewer tell me in very frank terms that the 3L window is essentially closed.


It's weird because during 2L OCI interviewers are so careful about not saying anything negative or that might make you defensive in a way, and when you are a 3L, OCI interviewers are so blunt. I went to OCI and just stopped by the hospitality suites for the most part and I was really surprised with how blunt the attorneys there were. I recall walking into the 2nd hospitality suite of the day and introducing myself to this attorney that was there, telling her my situation (i.e. how I would also be interested in starting in 2012 and possibly clerking for a year to fill that gap), etc. her immediate response was "NO, we're not hiring 3Ls!" So I just turned around and walked out... It was pretty bad.

Maybe she'd been flooded with requests by other 3Ls?

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Re: Striking out at OCI- a frank discussion

Postby OperaSoprano » Sat Sep 25, 2010 3:39 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Guerilla Tactics to Getting the Legal Job of Your Dreams is fantastic for unorthodox advice.


lol
except that everybody uses it


You would be surprised. Even if the book is relatively well known to your classmates, the advice is sound.

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Re: Striking out at OCI- a frank discussion

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Sep 25, 2010 3:41 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Kohinoor wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
God this is so naive. See my last post... It's rough out there.

I had an OCI interviewer tell me in very frank terms that the 3L window is essentially closed.


It's weird because during 2L OCI interviewers are so careful about not saying anything negative or that might make you defensive in a way, and when you are a 3L, OCI interviewers are so blunt. I went to OCI and just stopped by the hospitality suites for the most part and I was really surprised with how blunt the attorneys there were. I recall walking into the 2nd hospitality suite of the day and introducing myself to this attorney that was there, telling her my situation (i.e. how I would also be interested in starting in 2012 and possibly clerking for a year to fill that gap), etc. her immediate response was "NO, we're not hiring 3Ls!" So I just turned around and walked out... It was pretty bad.

What a bitch. Sorry that happened. What are your plans now?


I'm the anon from the 2nd post, so not much. At this point I'm just planning on finishing up my school year and then if I somehow find some worthwhile job as a lawyer, I'll take it, if not, then it's not really the end of the world. The student loans are pretty awful, but whatever, worst case scenario I pay 15% in wage garnishments towards them forever (and 15% of next to nothing = not much money).

Kohinoor wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Kohinoor wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
God this is so naive. See my last post... It's rough out there.

I had an OCI interviewer tell me in very frank terms that the 3L window is essentially closed.


It's weird because during 2L OCI interviewers are so careful about not saying anything negative or that might make you defensive in a way, and when you are a 3L, OCI interviewers are so blunt. I went to OCI and just stopped by the hospitality suites for the most part and I was really surprised with how blunt the attorneys there were. I recall walking into the 2nd hospitality suite of the day and introducing myself to this attorney that was there, telling her my situation (i.e. how I would also be interested in starting in 2012 and possibly clerking for a year to fill that gap), etc. her immediate response was "NO, we're not hiring 3Ls!" So I just turned around and walked out... It was pretty bad.

Maybe she'd been flooded with requests by other 3Ls?


Yeah, there were a ton of 3Ls at OCI (even though none of them had interviews -- I think the average number of OCI interviews was 1 at my school). I think firms just expected there to be a ton of 3Ls there looking for jobs, made the decision that they weren't going to hire any, and made the decision to turn away 3Ls that came to OCI or direct sent them applications with no exceptions. This is why I think the "hope to get something at 3L OCI" post was a bit naive (because firms just don't hire 3Ls, except the very top firms and only a handful of students that have offers from other large firms have a chance there). After 2L OCI, the window has basically closed. There's clerkships, but even a lot of article III clerks aren't getting biglaw offers anymore, which IMO is a weird phenomenon because it suggests firms would rather hire 2Ls with no real legal work experience over a judicial law clerks for federal judges.


EDIT-
BTW- Good luck OS! You are probably one of the more genuine people who post on this forum, and I hope you find whatever job it is that you seek.

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Re: Striking out at OCI- a frank discussion

Postby OperaSoprano » Sat Sep 25, 2010 3:54 pm

Anonymous User wrote:BTW- Good luck OS! You are probably one of the more genuine people who post on this forum, and I hope you find whatever job it is that you seek.


Thank you! I had to think seriously about putting this up here, because I lack meaningful anonymity, but this issue is too important to too many people. Wishing you the best of luck as well!

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Re: Striking out at OCI- a frank discussion

Postby yellowjacket2012 » Sat Sep 25, 2010 3:58 pm

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Re: Striking out at OCI- a frank discussion

Postby prezidentv8 » Sat Sep 25, 2010 4:03 pm

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Re: Striking out at OCI- a frank discussion

Postby Jessep » Sat Sep 25, 2010 4:24 pm

I agree that students shouldn't blame themselves or think their world is over. When I went through it years ago, I had many peers who struck out and others who got gigs. It was a little random at times. Some very qualified, personable candidates were overlooked for whatever reason.

If you work hard, stay positive in seeking out meaningful opportunities, and reach out/build your network then good things are likely to happen. You need to be proactive and tenacious in seeking out opportunities - self-pity will get you nowhere.
Last edited by Jessep on Sat Sep 25, 2010 4:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Striking out at OCI- a frank discussion

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Sep 25, 2010 4:29 pm

yellowjacket2012 wrote:Much conversation relating to big law employment on this website or in the halls of law school, reflect the general pessimism of the lawyering profession. Its like the current set of nuts on CNBC or financial media in general who "sell sell sell" when the S&P broke 1000 last year.

Short-term, yes, you're screwed, big time - if you've got a ton of loans + big law was the goal. You'll have to manage your finances somehow, but you're a student, your lifestyle is what it is, you'll just stay that way - i.e. if you're miserable financially now, can't afford to replace that broken blender, you'll just stay as content as you are right now for some time. Long-term, who the hell knows. People who pretend like they know are nuts. They know nothing (Cramer).

Is it possible that "big law is forever changed" - yes, sure, this is possible, also possible that China will take over the world and American business will be forever changed.

Is it possible that there'll be another jobfest in American big law? Yes, sure, this is also possible. Just like its possible that in the next 10 years we'll see another housing or stock market festival where S&P breaks 2500 (which it will if stocks gain like 8% annually over the next 10 years). Just do your thing and in the end, it'll sort itself out, or it won't, but going around with a doomsday attitude about long-term prospects makes about as much sense as thinking you're set for life in '05 if you got a V10 offer.

OS is going to be fine, seems to have a healthy attitude about it all, can't say the same about many people in law school right now, but their emotions are justified (in the end, key word, its their emotions)


Get off your high horse and try to see where other people are coming from.

For the people that took out crazy loans to cover the even crazier cost of law school, striking out at OCI is not something that you just shrug off and "get over." Being 150-200K in debt without a big law job means having to pay at least half of your paycheck every month to loan payments for a decade or more, not being able to buy a house/condo, not having the financial freedom to start a family. Most law students are in their early twenties, where the decade after graduation will be the time when people settle down, have a family and finally start to enjoy the benefits of having worked so hard until now. It is a major blow to how you've planned your life. I for one definitely did not come to law school to be in 180K in debt for a good chunk of my life.

I do agree with you that it doesn't help to mope around and project your misery wherever you go, but there are good reasons why one would feel that way. For you to just discount this disappointment to a casual "it'll sort itself out, or it won't," and then make judgments about how people are being "emotional" is unwarranted. It is a legitimate reason to be depressed about and it doesn't help that people who know of this situation, like you, are judging them for being down about it.

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Re: Striking out at OCI- a frank discussion

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Sep 25, 2010 4:40 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
yellowjacket2012 wrote:Much conversation relating to big law employment on this website or in the halls of law school, reflect the general pessimism of the lawyering profession. Its like the current set of nuts on CNBC or financial media in general who "sell sell sell" when the S&P broke 1000 last year.

Short-term, yes, you're screwed, big time - if you've got a ton of loans + big law was the goal. You'll have to manage your finances somehow, but you're a student, your lifestyle is what it is, you'll just stay that way - i.e. if you're miserable financially now, can't afford to replace that broken blender, you'll just stay as content as you are right now for some time. Long-term, who the hell knows. People who pretend like they know are nuts. They know nothing (Cramer).

Is it possible that "big law is forever changed" - yes, sure, this is possible, also possible that China will take over the world and American business will be forever changed.

Is it possible that there'll be another jobfest in American big law? Yes, sure, this is also possible. Just like its possible that in the next 10 years we'll see another housing or stock market festival where S&P breaks 2500 (which it will if stocks gain like 8% annually over the next 10 years). Just do your thing and in the end, it'll sort itself out, or it won't, but going around with a doomsday attitude about long-term prospects makes about as much sense as thinking you're set for life in '05 if you got a V10 offer.

OS is going to be fine, seems to have a healthy attitude about it all, can't say the same about many people in law school right now, but their emotions are justified (in the end, key word, its their emotions)


Get off your high horse and try to see where other people are coming from.

For the people that took out crazy loans to cover the even crazier cost of law school, striking out at OCI is not something that you just shrug off and "get over." Being 150-200K in debt without a big law job means having to pay at least half of your paycheck every month to loan payments for a decade or more, not being able to buy a house/condo, not having the financial freedom to start a family. Most law students are in their early twenties, where the decade after graduation will be the time when people settle down, have a family and finally start to enjoy the benefits of having worked so hard until now. It is a major blow to how you've planned your life. I for one definitely did not come to law school to be in 180K in debt for a good chunk of my life.

I do agree with you that it doesn't help to mope around and project your misery wherever you go, but there are good reasons why one would feel that way. For you to just discount this disappointment to a casual "it'll sort itself out, or it won't," and then make judgments about how people are being "emotional" is unwarranted. It is a legitimate reason to be depressed about and it doesn't help that people who know of this situation, like you, are judging them for being down about it.


+1

yellowjacket2012
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Re: Striking out at OCI- a frank discussion

Postby yellowjacket2012 » Sat Sep 25, 2010 5:11 pm

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Re: Striking out at OCI- a frank discussion

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Sep 25, 2010 5:12 pm

Nobody is entitled to 160k, I'm a HLS 2L who struck out and is now mass-mailing trying to get a job, if it doesn't work out I'll do something else, all this gloom and doom and my life is over because you couldn't get 160k is ridiculous and the myth about "exit options" is also a bunch of crap, 5000 attorneys were laid off the past two years where do you think they all went? Law has changed, the party's over you LOST, move on and accept it. I have.

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Re: Striking out at OCI- a frank discussion

Postby ToTransferOrNot » Sat Sep 25, 2010 5:13 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
matty wrote:No, life isn't over. But you're going to have to keep your grades up and hope against hope to get something at 3L OCI, or otherwise start thinking creatively and looking at other options.


God this is so naive. See my last post... It's rough out there.

Yeah, and I made it sound so easy too with my "hope against hope" phrasing :roll:


The point is that if you didn't get something out of 2L OCI, you won't get something out of 3L OCI (no matter what). There are just too few spots open to 3Ls at large firms, and the mere fact that you didn't work at a large firm as a 2L (and hence, did not get an offer from a large firm at the end of your 2L summer) is a HUGE red mark on your application. When you're up against top 1% CCN, executive board of law review, and got an offer from a large firm type people, you really can't compete with that as a 3L that just wasn't good enough to get an offer out of 2L OCI.


Tell that to someone I know who got a V5 after getting nothing out of 2L OCI.

Blanket generalizations for the win. Is it unlikely? Yeah. But stop running your trap as if it is the god's honest truth.

Oh, and the guy was not top 1%, or law review (or a secondary for that matter). Seriously, you're stupid.

Rfit to clarify that I am not any of the anonymous people.

yellowjacket2012
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Re: Striking out at OCI- a frank discussion

Postby yellowjacket2012 » Sat Sep 25, 2010 5:18 pm

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Last edited by yellowjacket2012 on Sun Sep 26, 2010 4:33 pm, edited 2 times in total.

daisyduck
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Re: Striking out at OCI- a frank discussion

Postby daisyduck » Sat Sep 25, 2010 5:44 pm

yellowjacket2012 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I do agree with you that it doesn't help to mope around and project your misery wherever you go, but there are good reasons why one would feel that way. For you to just discount this disappointment to a casual "it'll sort itself out, or it won't," and then make judgments about how people are being "emotional" is unwarranted. It is a legitimate reason to be depressed about and it doesn't help that people who know of this situation, like you, are judging them for being down about it.


I don't think "sympathy" is the warranted discussion here. I'm just noting that it is very confusing to make long-term predictions about mortgages, families, yadda yadda yadda, when just 3 years ago, big law, housing, stock markets, were on a tear; and now in the last 2 years we've had a pretty depressed economic climate. So if you want to get on some high-horse of being one of those CNBC type gloom-and-doom pundits, knock yourself out. If my high-horse is one of moderation, I don't plan on getting off it anytime soon. But I'm going to assume you read some of my other posts and figured out I have a job lined up, so my high-horse is one of an employed 2L versus someone who's not. If that's what you're referring to, I can assure you I'd say these exact same things if I didn't have a big law job.

Who cares if *I* am sympathetic toward doom-and-gloom folks, I don't matter to anybody, I'm just pointing out that people are on the high-horse of making references to mortgages (i.e. a long-term economical variable) based on ZERO information about the legal labor market in the long term. Do you really think that '05 associates who entered big law had any business getting a 600k mortgage with no assets, one big law job, and no collateral? Is that really what you're after?

So to use your frame of questioning, do I have sympathy for people who think they're screwed for LIFE? Not at all, I think they lack a sense of economic history/perspective.

Hahaha, are you serious? Is that what you do when someone disagrees with you on an internet forum? Well, sorry. I guess not everyone spends as much time here.

Look, I hate random, meaningless internet bickering just as much as the next guy and don't want to see this thread being packed with your poorly written opinions, so this is the last thing I am going to say in response because you seem to have missed my point:

Regardless of whether you're done with the job search process, it is in bad form to make judgments about how others ought to be feeling about not getting a big law job. No one realistically concludes that they're "doomed for life," as you say, just because they didn't land a job through OCI. People are lamenting about their short-term employment prospects and the psychological burden of being in a six-figure debt, not that they'll be screwed for life about everything. And that is a legitimate reason to be upset about - definitely something that a decent person would not make judgments on. Stop being condescending about other people's perspectives.

yellowjacket2012
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Re: Striking out at OCI- a frank discussion

Postby yellowjacket2012 » Sat Sep 25, 2010 5:51 pm

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Last edited by yellowjacket2012 on Sun Sep 26, 2010 4:33 pm, edited 3 times in total.

bigben
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Re: Striking out at OCI- a frank discussion

Postby bigben » Sat Sep 25, 2010 5:52 pm

My, this discussion is so frank!

yellowjacket2012
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Re: Striking out at OCI- a frank discussion

Postby yellowjacket2012 » Sat Sep 25, 2010 5:53 pm

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Last edited by yellowjacket2012 on Sun Sep 26, 2010 4:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Striking out at OCI- a frank discussion

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Sep 25, 2010 6:59 pm

yellowjacket2012 wrote:and so anonymous for no apparent reason.

Back on track:

If I had no jobs for next summer, and I had to convert short-term crisis into a long-term opportunity, I would apply to an ADA/PD office even if I had zero interest in CRIMINAL prosecution/defense, but significant interest in big law litigation/trial.


LOL @ getting an offer from Criminal prosecution/defense organizations with no interest in Criminal Law.

I am going to BigLaw, but I have worked extensively with these public interest organizations. These public interest organizations are not stupid. They can tell EASILY, i mean EASILY when you are not interested in Criminal/Public interest stuff. Think you can fake it? Wrong. Maybe you can fake it, but there are tons and tons of people who are actually really passionate about this field and the organizations don't hire that many people. (At my T6, I know at least 10 people who were gung-ho about public interest/criminal law (some are Law Review, top 10%) from the very beginning. They didn't even do OCI/EIP and they are going to tell these interviewers exactly that. )

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Re: Striking out at OCI- a frank discussion

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Sep 25, 2010 7:00 pm

Sorry have to disagree once you enter criminal law you are stuck there forever, talk to any person in crim and you'll find the same thing, you're better off doing something else altogether. I don't understand why people will spend YEARS of their life trying to break into BIGLAW, its almost disgusting. IT DIDN'T HAPPEN! MOVE ON!

yellowjacket2012
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Re: Striking out at OCI- a frank discussion

Postby yellowjacket2012 » Sat Sep 25, 2010 7:02 pm

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Re: Striking out at OCI- a frank discussion

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Sep 25, 2010 7:02 pm

yellowjacket2012 wrote:If I had no jobs for next summer, and I had to convert short-term crisis into a long-term opportunity, I would apply to an ADA/PD office even if I had zero interest in CRIMINAL prosecution/defense, but significant interest in big law litigation/trial. Partners can easily sell a junior/midlevel to a client if that junior/midlevel has legitimate trial experience. You won't see the inside of a courtroom in every singel big law firm out there for several years, even junior partners haven't ever done any trial work at most firms. Of course, AUSA is terrific but impossible without biglaw/clerkship experience, but ADA/PD is achievable right out of law school if you can sell yourself to these places. By way of example, I know several people last year who got 2L ADA jobs and they applied in the Spring term.


I wasn't aware that PD jobs were anywhere near easy to get. I know people who wanted these sorts of jobs (and had the sort of background that PD offices tend to like) but got shut out... even though they probably would have been successful if the tried to get a biglaw job.

I did recently meet a biglaw associate who got his position after being a municipal lawyer in a small town and then being a solo practitioner for a few years. So I guess these sorts of things are possible, but I'd give very long odds on it.




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