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Topic.

Basically do GULC students who target NYC fair better during OCI than those who focus on DC? Similarly would a GW student in top 15% have an easier time cracking NYC than DC in this economy?

Thanks for any help in advance...

Almost certainly. NYC is easier to break into than DC because there are a lot more SA positions in NYC. Also, at a school where most students target DC, you'll be competing with a lot of people for the few DC SA spots available. By contrast, if you focus on NYC, you won't have to compete with many of your classmates.

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Would it be possible to give a rough estimate based on what you guys have seen at this year's OCI how much more difficult DC is to crack in terms of class rank? I mean judging from the GULC OCI thread it seems you need top 1/3 to get biglaw consideration. So I'd guess top 1/3 is NYC biglaw consideration and then maybe like top 20% for DC biglaw consideration?

I think as a general rule DC has been the hardest market this year - fewer firms in total, and a great majority of the firms that are here are satelite offices, and hence have small summer class sizes. I'm top 10% at GULC with secondary journal and basically targeted DC. 20 DC screeners, 4 DC callbacks (3 of which were at firms with big DC offices/DC home offices), 1 offer 1 ding so far, 2 pending. That all being said, I think GULC/GW have an easier time cracking the DC market than other schools in our general range (I'd say really anything but HYS but that's admittedly really just speculation) because we're local which means low-cost for callback and a connection to the city (and often a general interest in the life and legal practice in DC, which differs dramatically from NYC). So, if you're a prospective law student and want to be in DC eventually, I'd say GULC or GW are your better bets. If you're a GULC/GW 1L trying to figure out where to bid next year, I'd say NYC is a safer bet.

While there may be more NYC spots available, a GULC student has to compete with Harvard, Columbia, NYU, Penn, Duke, and Cornell students in NYC much more so than they'd have to compete with them in DC. In DC, GULC only has to compete with Virginia.

Anonymous User wrote:While there may be more NYC spots available, a GULC student has to compete with Harvard, Columbia, NYU, Penn, Duke, and Cornell students in NYC much more so than they'd have to compete with them in DC. In DC, GULC only has to compete with Virginia.

And what makes you think that they don't have to compete with the same schools and DC?

Anonymous User wrote:While there may be more NYC spots available, a GULC student has to compete with Harvard, Columbia, NYU, Penn, Duke, and Cornell students in NYC much more so than they'd have to compete with them in DC. In DC, GULC only has to compete with Virginia.

This is why I go back and forth with this here at UVA. I get about a 50 percent split in opinion from UVA 3L's on this. About half of them say DC is very hard because everyone at UVA wants to work there, and then the other half says it is our prime market because of our alumni base and reputation there. One 3L went so far as to say that she felt DC was actually easier than NYC. The other thing is that NYC is really the only market that gets an almost even amount of interest from schools nationwide. DC mainly gets UVA, GULC, GWU, American, and Catholic grads. Those are the main schools you're competing with for DC jobs--in which case UVA, and to a lesser extent GULC, are in a good spot. Yes HYS and arguably CC will have the leg up on UVA grads, but that's it. If only 5 schools (or for GULC 6) in the entire country give you a better shot at a DC job then that still means that it is a good school for the market.

And what makes you think that they don't have to compete with the same schools and DC?

The DC interest level at those schools (excluding Duke) is much lower. S, CCN, Michigan, Boalt, Penn, NU, and Cornell send a very small percentage of their class to DC. Harvard and Yale are really the only schools other than UVA and GULC that send a sizable portion of their class to DC. CCN, Michigan, Penn, and Cornell actually send more people to California than they do to DC--and California cares a lot more about ties than DC does.

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bwv812 wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:While there may be more NYC spots available, a GULC student has to compete with Harvard, Columbia, NYU, Penn, Duke, and Cornell students in NYC much more so than they'd have to compete with them in DC. In DC, GULC only has to compete with Virginia.

People from every school want DC. I would think that HYSCCN, V, and maybe even D (tiny class size) will give you as good a chance in DC as GULC will.

Anonymous User wrote:I'm top 10% at GULC with secondary journal and basically targeted DC. 20 DC screeners, 4 DC callbacks (3 of which were at firms with big DC offices/DC home offices), 1 offer 1 ding so far, 2 pending.

I think it says a lot that top 10% at GULC gets you 4 CBs out of 20 DC screeners. I have to imagine you'd do at least as well from the schools I listed above if you focused on DC.

I don't want to shit all over the Gs, but this seems credited to me.

You have to separate two things.

1) Do DC firms regard GULC/UVA more highly than other lower T14s?
2) Is it easier to get a job in DC from GULC/UVA than from other lower T14s?

I can totally buy (1), but I'm not sure I buy (2).

I'm top 1/4 at DNC. I had 4 DC screeners, which lead to 2 callbacks, and 1 offer so far. I picked up two of my DC interviews from bids ranked in the 20s. My Friend had similar number of DC screeners, and also got an offer. There is very little interest in DC from people at my school, so I wasn't competing with every top 10%+LR kid for callback slots.

Anonymous User wrote:You have to separate two things.

1) Do DC firms regard GULC/UVA more highly than other lower T14s?
2) Is it easier to get a job in DC from GULC/UVA than from other lower T14s?

I can totally buy (1), but I'm not sure I buy (2).

I'm top 1/4 at DNC. I had 4 DC screeners, which lead to 2 callbacks, and 1 offer so far. I picked up two of my DC interviews from bids ranked in the 20s. My Friend had similar number of DC screeners, and also got an offer. There is very little interest in DC from people at my school, so I wasn't competing with every top 10%+LR kid for callback slots.

I'm glad you posted this. To clarify my point was 1) not 2). Essentially, I'm saying that going to NYU,MPB, or DCN does not mean that DC firms will take a lower GPA from you than if you went to UVA. Your bolded was also what I was getting at; for some reason the level of interest in DC just isn't that high at CCN, MBP, and C NU.

BruceWayne wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:You have to separate two things.

1) Do DC firms regard GULC/UVA more highly than other lower T14s?
2) Is it easier to get a job in DC from GULC/UVA than from other lower T14s?

I can totally buy (1), but I'm not sure I buy (2).

I'm top 1/4 at DNC. I had 4 DC screeners, which lead to 2 callbacks, and 1 offer so far. I picked up two of my DC interviews from bids ranked in the 20s. My Friend had similar number of DC screeners, and also got an offer. There is very little interest in DC from people at my school, so I wasn't competing with every top 10%+LR kid for callback slots.

I'm glad you posted this. To clarify my point was 1) not 2). Essentially, I'm saying that going to NYU,MPB, or DCN does not mean that DC firms will take a lower GPA from you than if you went to UVA. Your bolded was also what I was getting at; for some reason the level of interest in DC just isn't that high at CCN, MBP, and C NU.

Yeah. DC is GPA sensitive, but I don't think that's what makes getting a job there so hard. Like I said, I got CBs at good DC firms with only top 1/4 grades. What's really killer is that firms have a certain number of interview/CB slots per school, and at a place like UVA/GULC those slots are filled with law review types. At my school most of LR had no interest in DC.

Person wrote:

bwv812 wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:While there may be more NYC spots available, a GULC student has to compete with Harvard, Columbia, NYU, Penn, Duke, and Cornell students in NYC much more so than they'd have to compete with them in DC. In DC, GULC only has to compete with Virginia.

People from every school want DC. I would think that HYSCCN, V, and maybe even D (tiny class size) will give you as good a chance in DC as GULC will.

Anonymous User wrote:I'm top 10% at GULC with secondary journal and basically targeted DC. 20 DC screeners, 4 DC callbacks (3 of which were at firms with big DC offices/DC home offices), 1 offer 1 ding so far, 2 pending.

I think it says a lot that top 10% at GULC gets you 4 CBs out of 20 DC screeners. I have to imagine you'd do at least as well from the schools I listed above if you focused on DC.

I don't want to shit all over the Gs, but this seems credited to me.

GULC person here again - to be fair, there may be other factors that led to this (my interest area is fairly focused, went straight through from UG so no WE beyond internships, etc.), but my point wasn't about GULC getting FEWER callbacks than everyone else, but about the DC market in general. That all being said, we had a lot more options for DC firms than I think most non-area schools have (ie way more than 50 bids would allow). Knowing I wanted to stay in DC post-graduation, I did pick GULC in part of a pre-ITE story I heard from a friend at Penn, where she was told in an interview with a DC firm that they were saving spots specifically for GULC (which goes to the point that someone made that DC firms might regard GULC/UVA more highly than other lower T14s). I think this has a lot to do with what the UVA person said - GULC graduates a lot of students compared to other T14s, and a lot of them have traditionally stayed in this market. Lots of alumni (like firms with alumni as their hiring partner) has to at some point result in some bias. Granted, ITE, it's all relative.

I think it says a lot that top 10% at GULC gets you 4 CBs out of 20 DC screeners. I have to imagine you'd do at least as well from the schools I listed above if you focused on DC.

I know several sub-median folks who got DC offers in 2008.

To add to this, at UVA, on the interview lists of all the prominent DC law firms, at least 50% (and more like 75%) of law review was listed. If the 60 interviewees include 25 law review students, getting a callback is going to be tough. By contrast, most law review students took only a handful of interviews in NYC. The students without law review who did well in DC (and, ITE, "well" in DC means 5+ callbacks) had strong grades (top quarter, at least) and targeted lower-ranked firms that law review students mostly ignored.

I'm top 15 and pulled off 6 DC callbacks from 8 screeners. Secondary journal and no full time work experience. So you can't generalize.

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I'm glad you posted this. To clarify my point was 1) not 2). Essentially, I'm saying that going to NYU,MPB, or DCN does not mean that DC firms will take a lower GPA from you than if you went to UVA. Your bolded was also what I was getting at; for some reason the level of interest in DC just isn't that high at CCN, MBP, and C NU.

I don't quite understand why you insist on trolling against NYU every opportunity you get.

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bwv812 wrote: Lots of firms save spots for students from specific schools, and this doesn't necessarily mean that school is their favorite or that they prefer it over others.

This definitely happens quite a bit. I go to a school that some firms in our market love, some don't. The firms that love us save at least one spot for someone from my school every single year. My firm told me that they save at least one spot for my school every summer.

I assume that GULC and other schools have similar relationships with DC firms, so you can't just take into account general school reputations. Look to specific firms, talk to career services, and analyze whether there are spots set aside for your school. Then, you can take into account how many people bid on that firm. In all likelihood, if a firm reserves a lot of spots, a lot of people from your school apply.