Firm Hours: What Counts as Being "Worked to Death"?

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Re: Firm Hours: What Counts as Being "Worked to Death"?

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Sep 19, 2010 8:11 pm

Mechanics bill by predetermined labor costs for specific tasks, such as 1.5 hours for task X, so that analogy doesn't work. They actually don't bill you based on hours worked. Apparently, neither do most of the lawyers-to-be in this thread, either.

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Re: Firm Hours: What Counts as Being "Worked to Death"?

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Sep 19, 2010 8:16 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Mechanics bill by predetermined labor costs for specific tasks, such as 1.5 hours for task X, so that analogy doesn't work. They actually don't bill you based on hours worked. Apparently, neither do most of the lawyers-to-be in this thread, either.


If you think the people billing 2500+ (aka the people making partner) aren't cutting corners or "overbilling," you're in for a rude awakening.

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Re: Firm Hours: What Counts as Being "Worked to Death"?

Postby Kohinoor » Sun Sep 19, 2010 8:34 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Mechanics bill by predetermined labor costs for specific tasks, such as 1.5 hours for task X, so that analogy doesn't work. They actually don't bill you based on hours worked. Apparently, neither do most of the lawyers-to-be in this thread, either.


If you think the people billing 2500+ (aka the people making partner) aren't cutting corners or "overbilling," you're in for a rude awakening.

I'm curious as to what the moralists will do the first time they're sitting in a room doing nothing billing for 4 hours 'just in case'.

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Re: Firm Hours: What Counts as Being "Worked to Death"?

Postby ResolutePear » Sun Sep 19, 2010 8:39 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Mechanics bill by predetermined labor costs for specific tasks, such as 1.5 hours for task X, so that analogy doesn't work. They actually don't bill you based on hours worked. Apparently, neither do most of the lawyers-to-be in this thread, either.


You're shitting me. I should tell my mechanic this.

He charges per actual time tuning on the dynamometer, corner-balancing, etc. Just because you think a mechanic's job description doesn't go any further than changing brakes, that doesn't make it so.

I guess the same would go for doc review vs. litigation.

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ResolutePear
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Re: Firm Hours: What Counts as Being "Worked to Death"?

Postby ResolutePear » Sun Sep 19, 2010 8:40 pm

Kohinoor wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Mechanics bill by predetermined labor costs for specific tasks, such as 1.5 hours for task X, so that analogy doesn't work. They actually don't bill you based on hours worked. Apparently, neither do most of the lawyers-to-be in this thread, either.


If you think the people billing 2500+ (aka the people making partner) aren't cutting corners or "overbilling," you're in for a rude awakening.

I'm curious as to what the moralists will do the first time they're sitting in a room doing nothing billing for 4 hours 'just in case'.


Whatever it takes, imo.

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Re: Firm Hours: What Counts as Being "Worked to Death"?

Postby bwv812 » Sun Sep 19, 2010 8:54 pm

.
Last edited by bwv812 on Fri Nov 26, 2010 5:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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ResolutePear
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Re: Firm Hours: What Counts as Being "Worked to Death"?

Postby ResolutePear » Sun Sep 19, 2010 9:04 pm

bwv812 wrote:
ResolutePear wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Mechanics bill by predetermined labor costs for specific tasks, such as 1.5 hours for task X, so that analogy doesn't work. They actually don't bill you based on hours worked. Apparently, neither do most of the lawyers-to-be in this thread, either.


You're shitting me. I should tell my mechanic this.

He charges per actual time tuning on the dynamometer, corner-balancing, etc. Just because you think a mechanic's job description doesn't go any further than changing brakes, that doesn't make it so.

I guess the same would go for doc review vs. litigation.

Well, your example kind of sucked because almost everything a mechanic does has a predetermined labour time. Yes, there are also some things that are not in the book and are done according to actual time, but these are exceptions. Mechanics are largely flat-fee (known hours x known hourly rate) while biglaw is not.


I reassert, *almost everything* doesn't stop at changing breaks.

You have engine installations, body work, various types of tuning(engine, suspension, etc.), blueprinting, and machining are all things which do not have predetermined labor times.

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Re: Firm Hours: What Counts as Being "Worked to Death"?

Postby swc65 » Sun Sep 19, 2010 9:27 pm

Deleted as Useless

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California Babe
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Re: Firm Hours: What Counts as Being "Worked to Death"?

Postby California Babe » Sun Sep 19, 2010 10:05 pm

I really want to see some of these time sheets people are (allegedly) keeping:

Code: Select all

2:31 PM - 2:46 PM (Billable)

2:46 PM - 2:48 PM (Idle chit-chat with another attorney.)

2:48 PM - 3:23 PM (Billable)

3:23 PM - 3:25 PM (Sneezed, washed hands)

3:25 PM - 4:11 PM (Billable)

4:11 PM - 4:14 PM (Yawned, leaned back in chair, thought about dinner, rubbed eyes for a few moments to regain focus.)


Wasn't there an episode of The Office where Dwight claimed he never did anything personal on company time, so Jim got a stopwatch and timed every moment he talked to someone, yawned, went to the bathroom, etc?

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Re: Firm Hours: What Counts as Being "Worked to Death"?

Postby DoubleChecks » Sun Sep 19, 2010 11:04 pm

ResolutePear wrote:Yep. I don't take PM's and automatically assume willingness to post public.


um, problem with that is, i think it is against forum rules lol. better hope a mod doesnt read this thread (or has already)

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Re: Firm Hours: What Counts as Being "Worked to Death"?

Postby ResolutePear » Sun Sep 19, 2010 11:32 pm

DoubleChecks wrote:
ResolutePear wrote:Yep. I don't take PM's and automatically assume willingness to post public.


um, problem with that is, i think it is against forum rules lol. better hope a mod doesnt read this thread (or has already)


I've read the post made by PKSebben and saw nothing against that. Perhaps you can construe it as an "outting", even though there is no personal information contained.

I would of redacted any personal information, in that case.

If there is separate set of rules, I'll the ensuing bannage as my failure.

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Re: Firm Hours: What Counts as Being "Worked to Death"?

Postby Royal » Mon Sep 20, 2010 12:00 am

It's probably a lot more manageable if you only plan on staying for a couple years and view it as something roughly analogous to a medical residency with much higher pay.

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Re: Firm Hours: What Counts as Being "Worked to Death"?

Postby ToTransferOrNot » Mon Sep 20, 2010 12:06 am

Royal wrote:It's probably a lot more manageable if you only plan on staying for a couple years and view it as something roughly analogous to a medical residency with much higher pay.


Of course, the exit options after biglaw generally involve massive paycuts and only slightly reduced hours, as opposed to post-residency money (money which is fully deserved, but still - massive, nearly guaranteed paycheck, unless you went in to general practice)

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Re: Firm Hours: What Counts as Being "Worked to Death"?

Postby xyzbca » Mon Sep 20, 2010 10:18 am

ResolutePear wrote:
I reassert, *almost everything* doesn't stop at changing breaks.

You have engine installations, body work, various types of tuning(engine, suspension, etc.), blueprinting, and machining are all things which do not have predetermined labor times.



Just stop. You are way off base here. I worked for 7 years in the auto repair industry (both body and mechanical).

Engine installations: predetermined labor times.

Body work: panel/part replacement = predetermined labor times; repairing damaged panel/part = no predetermined labor times.

Tuning: predetermined labor times by simply parting out the work.

Machining: usually predetermined labor times depending on the severity of the sevice.

The manufacturers will publish labor times for the consumption of their service departments for all of above items dealing with mechanical work. Additionally, third party vendors All Data and Chilton's dominate the market for non-affiliated repair shops by publishing labor times for all of the above mechanical items. Even your Ford service department will spend the money on a Chilton's or All Data guide in case somebody brings in a GM car for repairs. Insurance companies typically prefer Chilton's due to lower labor times. Both Chilton's and All Data provide two categories of information: normal replacement and severe service. Every single mechanical operation you listed above can be found with a predetermined labor time in either All Data or Chilton's.

Here is a sample of what a Chilton's guide looks like: http://chilton.cengage.com/samples/pdf/ ... -7_1-9.pdf

On the body side of things, labor times for panel/part replacement with OEM or non-custom aftermarket parts are published by CCC Pathways and Mitchell's Ultramate. Repar time for a damaged part will obviously be an open item depending on the severity of the damages. Auto Body shops tend to prefer Pathways b/c it does pay higher times than Ultramate.

Obviosly, custom(ized) body work will not have predetermined labor times.

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Re: Firm Hours: What Counts as Being "Worked to Death"?

Postby ResolutePear » Mon Sep 20, 2010 12:25 pm

xyzbca wrote:
ResolutePear wrote:
I reassert, *almost everything* doesn't stop at changing breaks.

You have engine installations, body work, various types of tuning(engine, suspension, etc.), blueprinting, and machining are all things which do not have predetermined labor times.



Just stop. You are way off base here. I worked for 7 years in the auto repair industry (both body and mechanical).

Engine installations: predetermined labor times.

Body work: panel/part replacement = predetermined labor times; repairing damaged panel/part = no predetermined labor times.

Tuning: predetermined labor times by simply parting out the work.

Machining: usually predetermined labor times depending on the severity of the sevice.

The manufacturers will publish labor times for the consumption of their service departments for all of above items dealing with mechanical work. Additionally, third party vendors All Data and Chilton's dominate the market for non-affiliated repair shops by publishing labor times for all of the above mechanical items. Even your Ford service department will spend the money on a Chilton's or All Data guide in case somebody brings in a GM car for repairs. Insurance companies typically prefer Chilton's due to lower labor times. Both Chilton's and All Data provide two categories of information: normal replacement and severe service. Every single mechanical operation you listed above can be found with a predetermined labor time in either All Data or Chilton's.

Here is a sample of what a Chilton's guide looks like: http://chilton.cengage.com/samples/pdf/ ... -7_1-9.pdf

On the body side of things, labor times for panel/part replacement with OEM or non-custom aftermarket parts are published by CCC Pathways and Mitchell's Ultramate. Repar time for a damaged part will obviously be an open item depending on the severity of the damages. Auto Body shops tend to prefer Pathways b/c it does pay higher times than Ultramate.

Obviosly, custom(ized) body work will not have predetermined labor times.


Why do people always have a "need" to bring in Chilton's. We're not talking about TTT lawyers doing temp. doc review here, and we're not talking about canned-manual trained mechanics from a manufacturer-sponsored school, either.

True, Chilton does outline predetermined labor hours for most services - just like a "ticket clinic."

In this context, when referring to Big Law, we're OBVIOUSLY talking about customized work here - the same type of "customized" work that's called for in firm cases.

Until you can come up with some magical guide that NASCAR, WRC, or the NHRA uses that outlines predetermined labor times which these high-caliber mechanics in their respective organizations can use to do the previously mentioned services, just stop. Just. Stop. It is you, who is off base here.

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Re: Firm Hours: What Counts as Being "Worked to Death"?

Postby xyzbca » Mon Sep 20, 2010 1:32 pm

ResolutePear wrote:Why do people always have a "need" to bring in Chilton's. We're not talking about TTT lawyers doing temp. doc review here, and we're not talking about canned-manual trained mechanics from a manufacturer-sponsored school, either.

True, Chilton does outline predetermined labor hours for most services - just like a "ticket clinic."

In this context, when referring to Big Law, we're OBVIOUSLY talking about customized work here - the same type of "customized" work that's called for in firm cases.

Until you can come up with some magical guide that NASCAR, WRC, or the NHRA uses that outlines predetermined labor times which these high-caliber mechanics in their respective organizations can use to do the previously mentioned services, just stop. Just. Stop. It is you, who is off base here.


Sorry, I'm not buying it. One could just as easly compare Biglaw to high caliber mechanic services in the context of Ferrari, RR, AM, Bentley, and even exotics such as the Bugatti Veryon. You know, complex, expensive machines. Surprisingly enough, they too have pre-determined labor rates.

Your implication that we are obviosly talking about highly exotic, customized work analagous to NASCAR or the NRHA is clever back tracking. You were the one that referred to "my mechanic" in this thread. Unless you are Jeff Gordon, it is not so obvious we are talking about the highly customized work that occurs on top level racing circuits.

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Re: Firm Hours: What Counts as Being "Worked to Death"?

Postby ToTransferOrNot » Mon Sep 20, 2010 1:51 pm

This thread is now about how retarded NASCAR is. Go.

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Re: Firm Hours: What Counts as Being "Worked to Death"?

Postby Action Jackson » Mon Sep 20, 2010 2:13 pm

xyzbca is winning.

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Re: Firm Hours: What Counts as Being "Worked to Death"?

Postby d34d9823 » Mon Sep 20, 2010 2:19 pm

Action Jackson wrote:xyzbca is winning.

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Re: Firm Hours: What Counts as Being "Worked to Death"?

Postby Bosque » Mon Sep 20, 2010 2:21 pm

Anonymous User wrote:The firms at which I'm interviewing have billable averages ranging from 1800-2900. All pay at or above market.

The interesting thing about the high end is that they also have no face time requirement. Offices are typically empty by 5:30 on Fridays, and unless there is an impending trial, no one is in the office on weekends. That might take some of the "death" off of being worked to death.

Also, once you figure out the billing system, it's really not that hard to bill 50 hours a week (or ~2500 if you take into account two weeks off). When I was a summer (granted, most of it was being written off rather than being billed to clients), I decided to take a week to see how much I could bill and not feel like I was being worked to death. I had an hour commute each way, and I liked having some free time before bed. I managed to do 54 hours (6 AM-6 PM in the office + 6 hours at home spread out over the week).

If you're doing work you like, it probably wouldn't be that bad. I actually disliked a lot of what I was doing and it didn't kill me.

You just have to be creative. I ate at my desk. I brought things I needed to read to the bathroom with me or when I needed to walk somewhere else or when I had a personal appointment and had to be in a waiting room.

Granted, this was only 1 summer, so maybe others can chime in, but I get the sense that "worked to death" is different depending on 1) how much you like your work and 2) what kind of face time is expected.


Wait a minute, how in hell did you get away with eating at your desk for a whole week as a summer associate? I don't think I managed to go two days in a row without someone wanting to go out to eat with me.

Ok, you may carry on with your cars of nas.

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Re: Firm Hours: What Counts as Being "Worked to Death"?

Postby Kohinoor » Mon Sep 20, 2010 2:25 pm

Action Jackson wrote:xyzbca is winning.

Everyone involved in that inanity is losing.

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Re: Firm Hours: What Counts as Being "Worked to Death"?

Postby Action Jackson » Mon Sep 20, 2010 2:33 pm

Kohinoor wrote:
Action Jackson wrote:xyzbca is winning.

Everyone involved in that inanity is losing.

Not Jesus. Jesus always wins.
--ImageRemoved--

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Re: Firm Hours: What Counts as Being "Worked to Death"?

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Sep 20, 2010 3:16 pm

Wait a minute, how in hell did you get away with eating at your desk for a whole week as a summer associate? I don't think I managed to go two days in a row without someone wanting to go out to eat with me.


It was the one week we didn't have any events scheduled. Fellow summers would go out to lunch, but I avoided it that week.

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ResolutePear
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Re: Firm Hours: What Counts as Being "Worked to Death"?

Postby ResolutePear » Mon Sep 20, 2010 3:35 pm

xyzbca wrote:
ResolutePear wrote:Why do people always have a "need" to bring in Chilton's. We're not talking about TTT lawyers doing temp. doc review here, and we're not talking about canned-manual trained mechanics from a manufacturer-sponsored school, either.

True, Chilton does outline predetermined labor hours for most services - just like a "ticket clinic."

In this context, when referring to Big Law, we're OBVIOUSLY talking about customized work here - the same type of "customized" work that's called for in firm cases.

Until you can come up with some magical guide that NASCAR, WRC, or the NHRA uses that outlines predetermined labor times which these high-caliber mechanics in their respective organizations can use to do the previously mentioned services, just stop. Just. Stop. It is you, who is off base here.


Sorry, I'm not buying it. One could just as easly compare Biglaw to high caliber mechanic services in the context of Ferrari, RR, AM, Bentley, and even exotics such as the Bugatti Veryon. You know, complex, expensive machines. Surprisingly enough, they too have pre-determined labor rates.

Your implication that we are obviosly talking about highly exotic, customized work analagous to NASCAR or the NRHA is clever back tracking. You were the one that referred to "my mechanic" in this thread. Unless you are Jeff Gordon, it is not so obvious we are talking about the highly customized work that occurs on top level racing circuits.


Right, because ~1200(IIRC) bucks labor for a Porsche Ceramic Disc Break job is totally flat rating it. No, instead, they are overcharging you for any possible circumstance... which makes this analogy useless in this context. It only gets worse for other manufacturer-spec racing vehicles.

Talking about manufacturers: It doesn't matter if you're building a Ford or a Ferrari, you're still subject to assembly-line economics. Theres productivity optimization in that mix - something you can't discount.

And...

Jeez, these assumptions are killing you.

Hopefully without outting myself: 2006-2008 Licensed SCCA driver who performed in Prepared and Modified class competitions with a Subaru and a coupe, which for obvious reasons I won't mention.

Yeah, I think that makes the mentioned mechanic qualified... but seriously, you're just looking for any possible way to discredit me when you missed the point altogether: mechanics jack off while working on your car. All the time.

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Re: Firm Hours: What Counts as Being "Worked to Death"?

Postby xyzbca » Mon Sep 20, 2010 5:23 pm

ResolutePear wrote:
Right, because ~1200(IIRC) bucks labor for a Porsche Ceramic Disc Break job is totally flat rating it. No, instead, they are overcharging you for any possible circumstance... which makes this analogy useless in this context. It only gets worse for other manufacturer-spec racing vehicles.

Talking about manufacturers: It doesn't matter if you're building a Ford or a Ferrari, you're still subject to assembly-line economics. Theres productivity optimization in that mix - something you can't discount.

And...

Jeez, these assumptions are killing you.

Hopefully without outting myself: 2006-2008 Licensed SCCA driver who performed in Prepared and Modified class competitions with a Subaru and a coupe, which for obvious reasons I won't mention.

Yeah, I think that makes the mentioned mechanic qualified... but seriously, you're just looking for any possible way to discredit me when you missed the point altogether: mechanics jack off while working on your car. All the time.


Heart of the matter: They aren't charging you to deal with every possible circumstance. They are charging you to make the economics of a service/body shop work. It is quite routine for a good mechanic/tech to flag 80 to 100 hours in a week while only working 40. You seem to be implying that a mechanic will charge you 10 hours b/c that is how long it took him to do the work, including breaks for jacking off. I'm telling you the system doesn't work that way. He charges you 10 hours for the work b/c the shop probably quoted you that to start, most likely off the basis of some kind of predetermined, published labor time. In reality it will take him 4 to 5 hours to do the work, including breaks for jacking off. Do you get quotes for the work that your mechanic does for you or do you just show up and pay the bill at the end?

SCCA is still light years away from the kind of stuff that is happening on top racing circuits in regards to customization of vehicles. The "Ford Fusion" spinning around a NASCAR track has little resemblance to the Ford Fusion parked out on the street. The same cannot be said for the SCCA at the prepared class. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the prepared class in the SCCA doesn't allow much structural modification and some (majority of?) allowed mechanical alterations are still subject to manufacturer allowed tolerances. If you are still dealing within manufacturer accepted tolerance ranges, pre-published labor times should be the basis the work done. If you really have found a mechanic that is charging you on the basis of hours worked rather than hours quoted keep him. I do wonder exactly how you would know that he is billing you for the time worked on the vehicle if you aren't by the vehicle's side during the work?

I'll plead ignorance on the modified class.

Why did you stop?




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