Firm Hours: What Counts as Being "Worked to Death"?

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Bosque
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Re: Firm Hours: What Counts as Being "Worked to Death"?

Postby Bosque » Mon Sep 20, 2010 5:54 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Wait a minute, how in hell did you get away with eating at your desk for a whole week as a summer associate? I don't think I managed to go two days in a row without someone wanting to go out to eat with me.


It was the one week we didn't have any events scheduled. Fellow summers would go out to lunch, but I avoided it that week.


I am sure you made some good friends there. :P

ToTransferOrNot
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Re: Firm Hours: What Counts as Being "Worked to Death"?

Postby ToTransferOrNot » Mon Sep 20, 2010 6:00 pm

Bosque wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Wait a minute, how in hell did you get away with eating at your desk for a whole week as a summer associate? I don't think I managed to go two days in a row without someone wanting to go out to eat with me.


It was the one week we didn't have any events scheduled. Fellow summers would go out to lunch, but I avoided it that week.


I am sure you made some good friends there. :P


For what it's worth, some people go to work to work, not make friends. I found most of the social events insufferable myself, and I certainly would not have gone out of my way to go to lunch with the other people in my class. It is quite possible to get along very well with your colleagues in a working environment, but want to minimize non-required time.

I do find it odd that he didn't schedule lunches with the attorneys though.

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Bosque
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Re: Firm Hours: What Counts as Being "Worked to Death"?

Postby Bosque » Mon Sep 20, 2010 6:11 pm

ToTransferOrNot wrote:
Bosque wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Wait a minute, how in hell did you get away with eating at your desk for a whole week as a summer associate? I don't think I managed to go two days in a row without someone wanting to go out to eat with me.


It was the one week we didn't have any events scheduled. Fellow summers would go out to lunch, but I avoided it that week.


I am sure you made some good friends there. :P


For what it's worth, some people go to work to work, not make friends. I found most of the social events insufferable myself, and I certainly would not have gone out of my way to go to lunch with the other people in my class. It is quite possible to get along very well with your colleagues in a working environment, but want to minimize non-required time.

I do find it odd that he didn't schedule lunches with the attorneys though.


Ok, lets take a entirely self/work interested approach to your work relationships. I think you underestimate the effect your relationship with your contemporaries has on your career. The legal community is smaller than you think.

ToTransferOrNot
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Re: Firm Hours: What Counts as Being "Worked to Death"?

Postby ToTransferOrNot » Mon Sep 20, 2010 6:22 pm

And you overestimate how much non-working relationships matter. People go to lunch because of work all the time. You work with these people 10-12 hours a day. I have never spoken to an attorney who tries to spend non-working (including working lunch/dinner) time with their colleagues. That time is reserved for family and non-work friends - considering how small an amount of time that is, it isn't surprising.

Anonymous User
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Re: Firm Hours: What Counts as Being "Worked to Death"?

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Sep 20, 2010 6:30 pm

Bosque wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Wait a minute, how in hell did you get away with eating at your desk for a whole week as a summer associate? I don't think I managed to go two days in a row without someone wanting to go out to eat with me.


It was the one week we didn't have any events scheduled. Fellow summers would go out to lunch, but I avoided it that week.


I am sure you made some good friends there. :P


I actually did.

Social enough to get an offer to come back at least (wasn't 100% offer rate either).

I do find it odd that he didn't schedule lunches with the attorneys though.


That one week out of the ten week summer program isn't a huge deal. I had quite a few lunches with attorneys throughout the program.

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ResolutePear
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Re: Firm Hours: What Counts as Being "Worked to Death"?

Postby ResolutePear » Mon Sep 20, 2010 6:32 pm

xyzbca wrote:
ResolutePear wrote:
Right, because ~1200(IIRC) bucks labor for a Porsche Ceramic Disc Break job is totally flat rating it. No, instead, they are overcharging you for any possible circumstance... which makes this analogy useless in this context. It only gets worse for other manufacturer-spec racing vehicles.

Talking about manufacturers: It doesn't matter if you're building a Ford or a Ferrari, you're still subject to assembly-line economics. Theres productivity optimization in that mix - something you can't discount.

And...

Jeez, these assumptions are killing you.

Hopefully without outting myself: 2006-2008 Licensed SCCA driver who performed in Prepared and Modified class competitions with a Subaru and a coupe, which for obvious reasons I won't mention.

Yeah, I think that makes the mentioned mechanic qualified... but seriously, you're just looking for any possible way to discredit me when you missed the point altogether: mechanics jack off while working on your car. All the time.


Heart of the matter: They aren't charging you to deal with every possible circumstance. They are charging you to make the economics of a service/body shop work. It is quite routine for a good mechanic/tech to flag 80 to 100 hours in a week while only working 40. You seem to be implying that a mechanic will charge you 10 hours b/c that is how long it took him to do the work, including breaks for jacking off. I'm telling you the system doesn't work that way. He charges you 10 hours for the work b/c the shop probably quoted you that to start, most likely off the basis of some kind of predetermined, published labor time. In reality it will take him 4 to 5 hours to do the work, including breaks for jacking off. Do you get quotes for the work that your mechanic does for you or do you just show up and pay the bill at the end?

SCCA is still light years away from the kind of stuff that is happening on top racing circuits in regards to customization of vehicles. The "Ford Fusion" spinning around a NASCAR track has little resemblance to the Ford Fusion parked out on the street. The same cannot be said for the SCCA at the prepared class. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the prepared class in the SCCA doesn't allow much structural modification and some (majority of?) allowed mechanical alterations are still subject to manufacturer allowed tolerances. If you are still dealing within manufacturer accepted tolerance ranges, pre-published labor times should be the basis the work done. If you really have found a mechanic that is charging you on the basis of hours worked rather than hours quoted keep him. I do wonder exactly how you would know that he is billing you for the time worked on the vehicle if you aren't by the vehicle's side during the work?

I'll plead ignorance on the modified class.

Why did you stop?


For the prepared class: You can do quite a bit of modifications to the body and the drivetrain. Includes everything from enlargement of wheel fenders to a full-on roll cage. You can add a different fuel cell. It's just a huge list of restrictions. You really have to get creative to eek out time from time attacks and autocross.

As for the Modified class: It's pretty much limited by weights and engine type/size. You can have upto a 6.0 NA, smaller FI I believe... and the engine has to be the same brand as the car, though luxury brands count as well (i.e. A Lexus engine in a Toyota). Again, without going into detail - it's not as customized as.. NASCAR(I don't have 3 mil to blow on a car), but custom fabrication is allowed and encouraged. For instance, I drove an originally AWD car with a RWD drivetrain at one point.

I stopped because.. well, it's a full-time job with inverse pay(You pay to work). It was fun though.

Point is, these guys were involved in quite a bit of custom fab, sourcing parts, etc. Their labor was not predetermined, at all.. even at the prosumer/amateur level. I see what you're ultimately saying and it makes sense. What I'm saying is: Yes, you are paying while a mechanic jacks off while working on your car... so why not a lawyer?

eth3n
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Re: Firm Hours: What Counts as Being "Worked to Death"?

Postby eth3n » Mon Sep 20, 2010 8:30 pm

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Last edited by eth3n on Mon Dec 02, 2013 7:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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ResolutePear
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Re: Firm Hours: What Counts as Being "Worked to Death"?

Postby ResolutePear » Mon Sep 20, 2010 8:42 pm

eth3n wrote:So how many years until you can actually do more than work and sleep during a weekday? (meaning like actually spend an hour or two of quality time with S.O. between 7-10 pm)


Until you can afford to have people work for you?

Anonymous User
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Re: Firm Hours: What Counts as Being "Worked to Death"?

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Sep 20, 2010 8:58 pm

eth3n wrote:So how many years until you can actually do more than work and sleep during a weekday? (meaning like actually spend an hour or two of quality time with S.O. between 7-10 pm)

If you aren't billing more than 2200, I don't think it's that hard to spend a couple hours of quality time with your SO every day. It is very difficult to actually plan that time, because you have no control over your schedule. The lack of control is the difficult piece for junior associates, more so than the total hours.

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paratactical
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Re: Firm Hours: What Counts as Being "Worked to Death"?

Postby paratactical » Mon Sep 20, 2010 8:59 pm

eth3n wrote:So how many years until you can actually do more than work and sleep during a weekday? (meaning like actually spend an hour or two of quality time with S.O. between 7-10 pm)


Meh. My paralegal hourly requirements were 1900 billables (not as bad as the ones posted here, sure) but I always felt like I had time for my SO and to do all kinds of fun things. Sure there would be one terrible month right before a trial, but the month after a trial would be reasonably dead and amount to lots of 9-5 days. It ebbs and flows, but even when I was working a lot, I could still make reasonable allowances for nice dinners out or weekend brunches or such things.

I couldn't always tell what days would go late or what day's wouldn't, but if you have a flexible SO who understands or if you live with your SO, it's pretty easy to deal with.

Anonymous User
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Re: Firm Hours: What Counts as Being "Worked to Death"?

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Sep 20, 2010 9:04 pm

I know this'll sound surprising, but:

Was on track to bill 2700-2900 hours and still had time for the significant other. I'd come home decently late, but she'd be awake and we'd spend time together until bedtime. There was also plenty of times on weekends.

Probably not best to begin a relationship like this, though.

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War Cardinal
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Re: Firm Hours: What Counts as Being "Worked to Death"?

Postby War Cardinal » Mon Sep 20, 2010 9:19 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I know this'll sound surprising, but:

Was on track to bill 2700-2900 hours and still had time for the significant other. I'd come home decently late, but she'd be awake and we'd spend time together until bedtime. There was also plenty of times on weekends.

Probably not best to begin a relationship like this, though.


What is "decently late"? What is "bedtime"?




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