accepting then rejecting an offer

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Renzo
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Re: accepting then rejecting an offer

Postby Renzo » Sun Oct 17, 2010 5:34 pm

Kohinoor wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:You guys are being way too hard on OP; forgetting the fact that any "contract" is for at-will employment which can be terminated by either party "at will." Also forgetting that over the past few years law firms have treated their incoming associates like dirt and routinely reneged or amended their offers of employment. And there are no C&F issues (at least on the bar application I am currently working on . . . ).

OP - look out for #1. Do so with as much tact as possible; limiting any foreseeable impact on your classmates.

TLS is very firm friendly. It's weird.

TLS is full of people who got where they are by never questioning authority and always doing exactly what they were told. That's how you get good grades at good schools and good recommendations. It also makes blind to the possibility that sometimes judiciously doing the impolite thing or breaking a rule is better for you.

Faustian_SA
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Re: accepting then rejecting an offer

Postby Faustian_SA » Sun Oct 17, 2010 9:51 pm

Absolutely crazy how big of a deal some of you think this would be. There will be no reputation impact because nobody at the firm even remembers who he is. They are not going to ever tell anyone else in any other firms about it, because quite frankly they don't care.

OP, just inform the HR person, come up with a good reason, heck, even tell them the truth concerning the program change, and take the other offer. Either they will then extend another offer to someone else, or they won't.

And no, he doesn't have a "contract" with the firm anymore than all of the laid-off 1st years had contracts with their firms during the recession. Do what is best for yourself, but do it professionally. Taking an offer with a firm that you don't feel is right for you is the unprofessional thing to do here.

CanadianWolf
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Re: accepting then rejecting an offer

Postby CanadianWolf » Mon Oct 18, 2010 7:30 am

Not sure that "any" employment contract is "at will" employment as there may be an actual negotiated contract involved.
Last edited by CanadianWolf on Mon Oct 18, 2010 8:53 am, edited 1 time in total.

rando
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Re: accepting then rejecting an offer

Postby rando » Mon Oct 18, 2010 7:44 am

CanadianWolf wrote:Not sure that "any" employment contract is "at will" employment. Some states are "right to work" states (e.g. Texas & Montana) or there may be an actual negotiated contract involved.


An SA position is not governed by an employment contract.

CanadianWolf
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Re: accepting then rejecting an offer

Postby CanadianWolf » Mon Oct 18, 2010 7:49 am

It can be if the parties agree, although that would not be the norm. Depends upon the parties agreement & the governing state/jurisdiction law. I suspect that there is more detailed negotiation for split summers than for those staying with one firm for the entire summer.
To state that "an SA position is not governed by an employment contract" implies that it is impossible to do so; that implication is false. Two, or more, legally competent parties can create & enter into a contract even though not the usual industry practice.

rando
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Re: accepting then rejecting an offer

Postby rando » Mon Oct 18, 2010 8:22 am

CanadianWolf wrote:It can be if the parties agree, although that would not be the norm. Depends upon the parties agreement & the governing state/jurisdiction law. I suspect that there is more detailed negotiation for split summers than for those staying with one firm for the entire summer.
To state that "an SA position is not governed by an employment contract" implies that it is impossible to do so; that implication is false. Two, or more, legally competent parties can create & enter into a contract even though not the usual industry practice.


No. It was implying that it is not done. Sure it can be done. So what? You are adding an absolutely worthless point of view to this thread.

CanadianWolf
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Re: accepting then rejecting an offer

Postby CanadianWolf » Mon Oct 18, 2010 8:24 am

No need to be insulting. How do you know that it is not done ? Are you familiar with every summer associate agreement or practice at every law firm in the country ?
Also, I think that you misunderstand the implication inherent in your own post.
Last edited by CanadianWolf on Mon Oct 18, 2010 8:25 am, edited 1 time in total.

rando
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Re: accepting then rejecting an offer

Postby rando » Mon Oct 18, 2010 8:25 am

CanadianWolf wrote:No need to be insulting. How do you know that it is not done ? Are you familiar with every summer associate agreement or practice at every law firm in the country ?


Good argument.

CanadianWolf
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Re: accepting then rejecting an offer

Postby CanadianWolf » Mon Oct 18, 2010 8:28 am

Thank you !

I am not certain whether or not you are in law school or still in college, but during the first few weeks of law school students are taught that facts are important in applying contract law & that that law can vary by jurisdiction. In this case, the OP has not shared any facts. While the safer assumption is that the contract of employment/employment agreement may be goverened by an "at will" employment doctrine, that is not necessarily true in each & every summer associate employment agreement.

Anonymous User
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Re: accepting then rejecting an offer

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Oct 18, 2010 9:01 am

I think the best bet would have been for the people earlier to not try to sound cool by turning this into a contracts hypo....

Aqualibrium
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Re: accepting then rejecting an offer

Postby Aqualibrium » Mon Oct 18, 2010 9:02 am

^me

rando
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Re: accepting then rejecting an offer

Postby rando » Mon Oct 18, 2010 9:16 am

CanadianWolf wrote:Thank you !

I am not certain whether or not you are in law school or still in college, but during the first few weeks of law school students are taught that facts are important in applying contract law & that that law can vary by jurisdiction. In this case, the OP has not shared any facts. While the safer assumption is that the contract of employment/employment agreement may be goverened by an "at will" employment doctrine, that is not necessarily true in each & every summer associate employment agreement.


Show me an example of a summer associate program that is governed by an employment contract.

I can show you hundreds of examples of associates being deferred, laid off, stealthly laid off, offers rescinded . . . please show me a contract.

The timeless argument of, "you don't know every single situation" proves that my ridiculous argument could be right, serves no purpose but to derail an otherwise useful thread.

CanadianWolf
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Re: accepting then rejecting an offer

Postby CanadianWolf » Mon Oct 18, 2010 9:44 am

You misunderstand the issue. You don't even know the facts of the instant case. You are making assumptions of the facts of the OP's situation which is fine since there are no facts stated, but you should state your assumptions. Other employment contracts are not relevant until the facts of the OP's agreement are known.
I sense that you are angry. I do not mean to upset you. This is just a friendly internet discussion. As you enter, or progress through, law school this simple concept of ascertaining the facts before applying law should become second nature in your analysis of any matter. Again I am not trying to argue with you.
P.S. When taking law school examinations it is very important to note if & when you are making factual assumptions.

rando
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Re: accepting then rejecting an offer

Postby rando » Mon Oct 18, 2010 9:54 am

CanadianWolf wrote:You misunderstand the issue. You don't even know the facts of the instant case. You are making assumptions of the facts of the OP's situation which is fine since there are no facts stated, but you should state your assumptions. Other employment contracts are not relevant until the facts of the OP's agreement are known.
I sense that you are angry. I do not mean to upset you. This is just a friendly internet discussion. As you enter, or progress through, law school this simple concept of ascertaining the facts before applying law should become second nature in your analysis of any matter. Again I am not trying to argue with you.
P.S. When taking law school examinations it is very important to note if & when you are making factual assumptions.


Sigh. Well when I get to law school I will be sure to note your persuasive techniques for applying the law and managing to issue spot an irrelevant issue.

CanadianWolf
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Re: accepting then rejecting an offer

Postby CanadianWolf » Mon Oct 18, 2010 10:02 am

Well put ! I know that law can be exhausting but it is important to understand that if law were as simple as you imply, then there would be no need for lawyers since a paralegal could easily handle the task. Good luck !

P.S. I didn't mean to suggest that your issue was irrelevant, just premature if applicable at all.

ToTransferOrNot
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Re: accepting then rejecting an offer

Postby ToTransferOrNot » Mon Oct 18, 2010 10:09 am

CanadianWolf wrote:Well put ! I know that law can be exhausting but it is important to understand that if law were as simple as you imply, then there would be no need for lawyers since a paralegal could easily handle the task. Good luck !

P.S. I didn't mean to suggest that your issue was irrelevant, just premature if applicable at all.


ITT: Sarcasm fail.

I think that OP's situation is one of the few where it's justifiable to consider backing out. A significant change in the program after accepting the offer is a pretty big deal.

Anonymous User
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Re: accepting then rejecting an offer

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Nov 02, 2010 1:15 pm

I actually have a similar problem - without a good excuse. I accepted an offer at a small Personal Injury firm for my 2L summer several weeks ago - so I would have something - with minimum pay and no confirmed chance at offer upon graduation, but I just got an unexpected offer from somewhere I had been rejected previously with Big Law pay and chance of an offer at completion. I am not sure what I should do in this case. I know it is ethically wrong, but I have to look out for my own future too.

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vanwinkle
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Re: accepting then rejecting an offer

Postby vanwinkle » Tue Nov 02, 2010 1:50 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I actually have a similar problem - without a good excuse. I accepted an offer at a small Personal Injury firm for my 2L summer several weeks ago - so I would have something - with minimum pay and no confirmed chance at offer upon graduation, but I just got an unexpected offer from somewhere I had been rejected previously with Big Law pay and chance of an offer at completion. I am not sure what I should do in this case. I know it is ethically wrong, but I have to look out for my own future too.

Will they let you split? If so, no ethical problem.

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KMaine
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Re: accepting then rejecting an offer

Postby KMaine » Tue Nov 02, 2010 1:58 pm

That is a really tough one. If I were a partner at the personal injury firm, I would let you out of the deal. Worth asking I guess. Tell them you will pay them 10K if they will let you out.

Anonymous User
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Re: accepting then rejecting an offer

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Nov 02, 2010 3:07 pm

KMaine wrote:That is a really tough one. If I were a partner at the personal injury firm, I would let you out of the deal. Worth asking I guess. Tell them you will pay them 10K if they will let you out.


I was thinking the same thing haha, but was thinking a smaller amount, but would still be making more during the summer either way.

I cannot split - found that out already.

I was thinking of just asking if they would let me take the other offer - worse case is they say no and my reputation should still be fine, but I am inclined to think they may let me go because they would want someone who wants to work there.

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pany1985
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Re: accepting then rejecting an offer

Postby pany1985 » Tue Nov 02, 2010 3:34 pm

I don't know if you really have much of a choice but to switch. It's more money and a better chance at a job post-grad, which is what really matters. You don't really have to ask for permission; just tell them you're doing it. Be nice about it and apologize and be all gracious and etc etc, but unless this small firm loves to hold grudges and has the ability to totally torpedo your career... it seems like an easy choice (albeit not a comfortable email to sit and write).




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