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?

Alright
68
56%
Pretty good
54
44%
 
Total votes: 122

yellowjacket2012
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Re: OCI winding up: would you recommend LS to your peers now?

Postby yellowjacket2012 » Mon Sep 13, 2010 12:58 am

hah, just got a pm regarding my earlier post.

If you have "cold cash" to pay for your law school tuition, and then $1 million left in the bank somehow, and you're in your 20s, then - uh - yeah - go wherever the hell you want if you want to practice law I guess.

2LLLL
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Re: OCI winding up: would you recommend LS to your peers now?

Postby 2LLLL » Mon Sep 13, 2010 1:11 am

HELL NO!!!!!!!!!!!

Even if it does work out, and outside the T14 even top 5% with LR gives no guarantees, it was, and BigLaw will be, way more stressful and way less fun thank making a go for it in business.


NNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Action Jackson
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Re: OCI winding up: would you recommend LS to your peers now?

Postby Action Jackson » Mon Sep 13, 2010 1:22 am

OperaSoprano wrote:
Action Jackson wrote:It's well worth the read. Wonderful post, OS.


Thank you. I hope your experiences have been good so far!

My career = :lol:

Thanks for the well wishes, though.

pandacot
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Re: OCI winding up: would you recommend LS to your peers now?

Postby pandacot » Mon Sep 13, 2010 1:28 am

For most, I would advise against entering law school. Many aggrandize a law education and the ends that will be produced. I have seen too many UG and LS students who believe that attending LS is like walking on a rainbow that ends at a pot of gold.

An economic rebound is not going to induce firms back to impractical hiring/business models. Gone are the days of firms hiring an exorbitant number of SAs. Firms are contracting into a much leaner workforce. With the influx of LS students, consistent laterals, and previous LS graduates that were no-offered assembling into a bread line for firm positions, an oversaturated legal market will remain for many years. The only redeeming quality may be the anticipated baby boomer retirements.

Prospective students need to have a long-term time horizon and think outside of the law firm mentality. Future LS graduates will need to be more entrepreneurial and self-motivated. Perhaps a law firm job will not be in the cards, but a law degree – and opportunities in LS -- can still reward a diligent student. The analytical, research and writing skills are still a sought after skill set -- but what is a student willing to invest for such returns?

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worldtraveler
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Re: OCI winding up: would you recommend LS to your peers now?

Postby worldtraveler » Mon Sep 13, 2010 1:38 am

OperaSoprano wrote:
wiseowl wrote:
There are too many people coming to law school who plan to use IBR/LRAP as a crutch. This could be a disastrous decision. Yes, the loans are "forgiven", but that's generally only in an LRAP program, and those generally aren't in ten year timeframes. The tax consequences of IBR make that option extremely unpalatable.


To clarify: IBR forgiveness is treated as taxable income if you are not working in a nonprofit job. In this scenario, it is forgiven after 25 years. There has been talk of changing the tax structure, because there is a possibility of a large tax bill if significant debt remains, making this less than a true forgiveness of debt. For those working at nonprofits, however, there is no tax bill to be paid, and the debt is forgiven after ten years. Combined with most schools' LRAPs, that isn't a bad deal for someone committed to the public interest.


I think some of the concern is that SO MANY PEOPLE plan on doing public interest stuff, or assume it can be their back-up.

I would still advise people to go, but only if they A) have worked first, and B)really research it beforehand and know what they want to do. I was talking with a friend the other day who discovered that he really wants to be a public defender, but since he thought he wanted to do a firm he doesn't have the experience that other applicants have. He's kicking himself for not investigating that more before law school.

I also say this because my background prior to law school is making my job hunt much, much easier than some of my peers. I can say for certain that I would be having a much harder time and maybe be regretting my decision if I had gone straight through from undergrad.

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OperaSoprano
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Re: OCI winding up: would you recommend LS to your peers now?

Postby OperaSoprano » Mon Sep 13, 2010 1:47 am

worldtraveler wrote:
OperaSoprano wrote:
wiseowl wrote:
There are too many people coming to law school who plan to use IBR/LRAP as a crutch. This could be a disastrous decision. Yes, the loans are "forgiven", but that's generally only in an LRAP program, and those generally aren't in ten year timeframes. The tax consequences of IBR make that option extremely unpalatable.


To clarify: IBR forgiveness is treated as taxable income if you are not working in a nonprofit job. In this scenario, it is forgiven after 25 years. There has been talk of changing the tax structure, because there is a possibility of a large tax bill if significant debt remains, making this less than a true forgiveness of debt. For those working at nonprofits, however, there is no tax bill to be paid, and the debt is forgiven after ten years. Combined with most schools' LRAPs, that isn't a bad deal for someone committed to the public interest.


I think some of the concern is that SO MANY PEOPLE plan on doing public interest stuff, or assume it can be their back-up.

I would still advise people to go, but only if they A) have worked first, and B)really research it beforehand and know what they want to do. I was talking with a friend the other day who discovered that he really wants to be a public defender, but since he thought he wanted to do a firm he doesn't have the experience that other applicants have. He's kicking himself for not investigating that more before law school.

I also say this because my background prior to law school is making my job hunt much, much easier than some of my peers. I can say for certain that I would be having a much harder time and maybe be regretting my decision if I had gone straight through from undergrad.


This is super important to stress! Background (meaning UG school, major, work experience, internships, life experience) matters so much more than people think. I can well believe that someone with a sincere desire to do something unrelated to their background would face trouble and skepticism ITE. I hope your friend is able to make it work. I also feel lucky, but I was surprised to learn how much pre law school factors matter in this process.

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Unemployed
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Re: OCI winding up: would you recommend LS to your peers now?

Postby Unemployed » Mon Sep 13, 2010 2:23 am

Kohinoor wrote:Shouldn't this poll just be renamed "Do you have an offer or a good chance at one?"


Not necessarily. I was fairly successful but I wouldn't recommend my law school to people who aren't self-starters. EIP ends badly for a lot of people: they are $70,000 in the red, exhausted by the insane speed-dating routine, discouraged/degraded by rejection after rejection, and in the end, they have nothing to show for it. They can probably hustle well-paying jobs and fulfilling PI gigs, but they certainly won't get any help from the school.

CLS' business model is to put a bunch of wonderful people in a big toaster and then make them compete against each other for every little thing. They don't have to do much to continue to attract top notch applicants, so student needs/opinions/requests/demands mean very little to the folks who run this place. One might even argue that their attitude goes a bit further than apathy... more like passive hostility. While I admit that at least some of the professors are truly top notch and the people are remarkably nice to each other, this is not a place for the faint of heart. If you are a passive person who's not insanely brilliant, you will fall through the cracks. Everyone will probably be "fine" in the pragmatic sense, but the emotional trauma is not worth it.

All of this is great training for biglaw, of course.

270910
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Re: OCI winding up: would you recommend LS to your peers now?

Postby 270910 » Mon Sep 13, 2010 2:30 am

Unemployed wrote:
Kohinoor wrote:Shouldn't this poll just be renamed "Do you have an offer or a good chance at one?"


Not necessarily. I was fairly successful but I wouldn't recommend my law school to people who aren't self-starters. EIP ends badly for a lot of people: they are $70,000 in the red, exhausted by the insane speed-dating routine, discouraged/degraded by rejection after rejection, and in the end, they have nothing to show for it. They can probably hustle well-paying jobs and fulfilling PI gigs, but they certainly won't get any help from the school.

CLS' business model is to put a bunch of wonderful people in a big toaster and then make them compete against each other for every little thing. They don't have to do much to continue to attract top notch applicants, so student needs/opinions/requests/demands mean very little to the folks who run this place. One might even argue that their attitude goes a bit further than apathy... more like passive hostility. While I admit that at least some of the professors are truly top notch and the people are remarkably nice to each other, this is not a place for the faint of heart. If you are a passive person who's not insanely brilliant, you will fall through the cracks. Everyone will probably be "fine" in the pragmatic sense, but the emotional trauma is not worth it.

All of this is great training for biglaw, of course.


This post is extremely credited. Stupid fucking toaster.

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Unemployed
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Re: OCI winding up: would you recommend LS to your peers now?

Postby Unemployed » Mon Sep 13, 2010 2:39 am

disco_barred wrote:
Unemployed wrote:
Kohinoor wrote:Shouldn't this poll just be renamed "Do you have an offer or a good chance at one?"


Not necessarily. I was fairly successful but I wouldn't recommend my law school to people who aren't self-starters. EIP ends badly for a lot of people: they are $70,000 in the red, exhausted by the insane speed-dating routine, discouraged/degraded by rejection after rejection, and in the end, they have nothing to show for it. They can probably hustle well-paying jobs and fulfilling PI gigs, but they certainly won't get any help from the school.

CLS' business model is to put a bunch of wonderful people in a big toaster and then make them compete against each other for every little thing. They don't have to do much to continue to attract top notch applicants, so student needs/opinions/requests/demands mean very little to the folks who run this place. One might even argue that their attitude goes a bit further than apathy... more like passive hostility. While I admit that at least some of the professors are truly top notch and the people are remarkably nice to each other, this is not a place for the faint of heart. If you are a passive person who's not insanely brilliant, you will fall through the cracks. Everyone will probably be "fine" in the pragmatic sense, but the emotional trauma is not worth it.

All of this is great training for biglaw, of course.


This post is extremely credited. Stupid fucking toaster.


From a student's perspective, the toaster is the third best thing about this school (after fellow students and some professors who care about the students). Job prospects used to be up there, but ITE, I don't know if CLS is discernibly better than the next band within T14. It's really sad if you think about it. The toaster is the third best thing. Jeebus.

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JG Hall
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Re: OCI winding up: would you recommend LS to your peers now?

Postby JG Hall » Mon Sep 13, 2010 2:48 am

disco_barred wrote:
Unemployed wrote:
Kohinoor wrote:Shouldn't this poll just be renamed "Do you have an offer or a good chance at one?"


Not necessarily. I was fairly successful but I wouldn't recommend my law school to people who aren't self-starters. EIP ends badly for a lot of people: they are $70,000 in the red, exhausted by the insane speed-dating routine, discouraged/degraded by rejection after rejection, and in the end, they have nothing to show for it. They can probably hustle well-paying jobs and fulfilling PI gigs, but they certainly won't get any help from the school.

CLS' business model is to put a bunch of wonderful people in a big toaster and then make them compete against each other for every little thing. They don't have to do much to continue to attract top notch applicants, so student needs/opinions/requests/demands mean very little to the folks who run this place. One might even argue that their attitude goes a bit further than apathy... more like passive hostility. While I admit that at least some of the professors are truly top notch and the people are remarkably nice to each other, this is not a place for the faint of heart. If you are a passive person who's not insanely brilliant, you will fall through the cracks. Everyone will probably be "fine" in the pragmatic sense, but the emotional trauma is not worth it.

All of this is great training for biglaw, of course.


This post is extremely credited. Stupid fucking toaster.

But the competition makes it fun. Or at least more interesting.

I would advise against going into law school with the "I'll graduate and do PI and get my loans done through LRAP" mentality. 85% of the people who come into CLS change their minds before spring break.

So at the end of the day, it depends on the school or the market. If you want to work in Wyoming or West Virginia or Montana or Alabama or something, you can go for under 100k and probably get a decent job in that state. But if you want to go to NY, I wouldn't recommend it outside HYSCN.

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Re: OCI winding up: would you recommend LS to your peers now?

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Sep 13, 2010 8:40 am

JG Hall wrote:

So at the end of the day, it depends on the school or the market. If you want to work in Wyoming or West Virginia or Montana or Alabama or something, you can go for under 100k and probably get a decent job in that state. But if you want to go to NY, DC, LA, London, or Asia, I wouldn't recommend it outside HYSCN.


ftfy

kjt
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Re: OCI winding up: would you recommend LS to your peers now?

Postby kjt » Mon Sep 13, 2010 11:49 am

I have spoken to a few people now applying for law school - my advice to all of them has been if you cannot get into a T14 (even that is no guarantee), take the best scholarship you can get from a lower ranked school. I am at a T20 school paying sticker price and regret that decision.

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Cavalier
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Re: OCI winding up: would you recommend LS to your peers now?

Postby Cavalier » Mon Sep 13, 2010 4:05 pm

kjt wrote:I have spoken to a few people now applying for law school - my advice to all of them has been if you cannot get into a T14 (even that is no guarantee), take the best scholarship you can get from a lower ranked school. I am at a T20 school paying sticker price and regret that decision.

I personally wouldn't even recommend a T14 without a scholarship. Many people in the T14 - including at YHS - are not going to get big law ITE. Failing to land a job that pays six figures out of law school is not necessary a bad thing - few people in this country will ever earn that much in a single year - but combined with a massive amount of debt, finding such a job crucial.

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Re: OCI winding up: would you recommend LS to your peers now?

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Sep 13, 2010 4:25 pm

Cavalier wrote:
kjt wrote:I have spoken to a few people now applying for law school - my advice to all of them has been if you cannot get into a T14 (even that is no guarantee), take the best scholarship you can get from a lower ranked school. I am at a T20 school paying sticker price and regret that decision.

I personally wouldn't even recommend a T14 without a scholarship. Many people in the T14 - including at YHS - are not going to get big law ITE. Failing to land a job that pays six figures out of law school is not necessary a bad thing - few people in this country will ever earn that much in a single year - but combined with a massive amount of debt, finding such a job crucial.


Agreed. And sticker is ridiculous even if you get big law. At most places, you'd graduate with 70k*3=210k + interest while in school and disbursement fees = approx. 240k in debt for a 160k job. (Assuming you don't get an SA position either summer and pay 20k towards the next year; but even doing that during both summers will only get you to approx. 190k.)

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Re: OCI winding up: would you recommend LS to your peers now?

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Sep 13, 2010 4:30 pm

YLS students who want Big Law are getting offers, in most case multiple. Maybe not multiples in top DC firms, but they are not suffering. But then again only 2/3 even do OCI, so maybe it's not a fair comparison.

At least there do not seem to be the complaints that appear in the HLS OCI entries on here.

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Cavalier
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Re: OCI winding up: would you recommend LS to your peers now?

Postby Cavalier » Mon Sep 13, 2010 4:39 pm

Anonymous User wrote:YLS students who want Big Law are getting offers, in most case multiple. Maybe not multiples in top DC firms, but they are not suffering. But then again only 2/3 even do OCI, so maybe it's not a fair comparison.

At least there do not seem to be the complaints that appear in the HLS OCI entries on here.

OK, so maybe Yale is safe, but that doesn't change things for 99% of people thinking about law school.

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rayiner
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Re: OCI winding up: would you recommend LS to your peers now?

Postby rayiner » Mon Sep 13, 2010 5:18 pm

The YHS comment is a bit silly. Even if 10% of folks at HLS strike out of OCI, I think if you're self aware you're almost certainly safe.

That's really a key issue that the aggregate statistics don't factor. 90% is too high a success rate at any law school IMHO considering the totally lost souls that come through without having any idea where they want to go or how to get there.

For a person I know personally to be self-aware, analytical, competitive, and who has real professional work experience, I'd absolutely recommend going to YHSCCN. Sure some people who do everything right at those schools will just get plain unlucky, but every career decision has risk and I think in that specific circumstance the risk is minimal.

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Re: OCI winding up: would you recommend LS to your peers now?

Postby frost » Mon Sep 13, 2010 5:23 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Cavalier wrote:
kjt wrote:I have spoken to a few people now applying for law school - my advice to all of them has been if you cannot get into a T14 (even that is no guarantee), take the best scholarship you can get from a lower ranked school. I am at a T20 school paying sticker price and regret that decision.

I personally wouldn't even recommend a T14 without a scholarship. Many people in the T14 - including at YHS - are not going to get big law ITE. Failing to land a job that pays six figures out of law school is not necessary a bad thing - few people in this country will ever earn that much in a single year - but combined with a massive amount of debt, finding such a job crucial.


Agreed. And sticker is ridiculous even if you get big law. At most places, you'd graduate with 70k*3=210k + interest while in school and disbursement fees = approx. 240k in debt for a 160k job. (Assuming you don't get an SA position either summer and pay 20k towards the next year; but even doing that during both summers will only get you to approx. 190k.)


I agree. A few of my close friends from college are considering law school and I tell them pretty much the same. I also encourage them to work in between schools in a field that's interesting but not too detached from law. That way, if they do end up applying to law school, they have some money saved up so they don't have to take out a full 200k in loans, and also they're at an advantage with work experience when it comes to OCI.

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sanetruth
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Re: OCI winding up: would you recommend LS to your peers now?

Postby sanetruth » Tue Sep 14, 2010 10:45 am

What would the answer to the initial question be assuming no debt, though?

Yes, the vast majority of students borrow (84% or something I think it is), but that still leaves thousands who are able to graduate debt free without diving down the rankings for some $$. So to someone who can assure that they won't graduate with debt, would you still discourage them?

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Re: OCI winding up: would you recommend LS to your peers now?

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Sep 14, 2010 10:58 am

The OCI at my T2 has been predictably brutal. That's not really shocking. The bad part is that it doesn't seem like Law Review with top 10% is safe for ANY job anymore. My school has always dominated its region (it's basically the only school for a fairly large metro area), but there are simply no jobs anymore. Only about half of last year's LR class got a job through OCI, though I don't know how much of that was a result of self-selection. I guess the good news is that they all had jobs somewhere, though I don't know how many of those positions lead to offers. There are a couple 3L's on LR that are doing OCI now, but no more than one or two. It seems like several firms are just going through the motions at OCI this year as very very few students that I know of are getting callbacks. You essentially needed to be on Law Review for a shot at a screener, and I have no idea what they're looking for to give you a callback.

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Aberzombie1892
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Re: OCI winding up: would you recommend LS to your peers now?

Postby Aberzombie1892 » Tue Sep 14, 2010 11:09 am

I would recommend not going to law school if:

1. You have a lot of undergrad debt (if that debt is for a non-science/business major, you messed your life up)
2. You are a first generation graduate from college
3. You are an international student and you have no connections to anywhere in the US.

Other than that, law school can be a good experience. You have to be logical and weigh your bets. For me, that meant skipping out on paying sticker to a school that would have cost me around $200,000 to go to a school that cost me significantly less than $50,000. Now that OCI is winding down, I do not regret that decision one bit.

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Re: OCI winding up: would you recommend LS to your peers now?

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Sep 14, 2010 11:23 am

Aberzombie1892 wrote:I would recommend not going to law school if:

1. You have a lot of undergrad debt (if that debt is for a non-science/business major, you messed your life up)
2. You are a first generation graduate from college
3. You are an international student and you have no connections to anywhere in the US.

Other than that, law school can be a good experience. You have to be logical and weigh your bets. For me, that meant skipping out on paying sticker to a school that would have cost me around $200,000 to go to a school that cost me significantly less than $50,000. Now that OCI is winding down, I do not regret that decision one bit.


Out of curiosity, why not if you're a first generation graduate from college?

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Aberzombie1892
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Re: OCI winding up: would you recommend LS to your peers now?

Postby Aberzombie1892 » Tue Sep 14, 2010 11:56 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Aberzombie1892 wrote:I would recommend not going to law school if:

1. You have a lot of undergrad debt (if that debt is for a non-science/business major, you messed your life up)
2. You are a first generation graduate from college
3. You are an international student and you have no connections to anywhere in the US.

Other than that, law school can be a good experience. You have to be logical and weigh your bets. For me, that meant skipping out on paying sticker to a school that would have cost me around $200,000 to go to a school that cost me significantly less than $50,000. Now that OCI is winding down, I do not regret that decision one bit.


Out of curiosity, why not if you're a first generation graduate from college?


The vast majority of students that enter law school are from the upper middle class. Even at crappy schools - even at HBCU schools. If you are from that bracket, either you, or someone in your family, knows someone that can help you get a legal job (or business job) post graduation. So, regardless of your rank, you will find work somewhere (of course the poor economy has made this more complicated, but this is true during regular times). Not only that, but if the law school students fails to attain meaningful employment - it is not that devastating because he/she will probably receive assistance post graduation from law school from his/her parents (in the form of money, loans, property, or the ability to move back in).

If you are a first generation college graduate, odds are that neither you nor your family knows someone that could help you secure employment. Of course, there are exceptions to this (re: business owner parents that didn't go to college/parents that entertainers/parents who worked to the top of a company before corporations changed their management models in the 80s and 90s to be more credentials focused/etc.); however, it generally seems to be the case. So, if a student did poorly in school, he/she would be in a really bad position because he/she would not have a close friend (in a meaningful position to help) working behind the scenes to help with employment. Also, that student would be less likely to receive post-graduation assistance from his/her parents.

Of course, the poor economy has normalized the difference somewhat (but not nearly as much as most people think).

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Re: OCI winding up: would you recommend LS to your peers now?

Postby Black-Blue » Tue Sep 14, 2010 12:16 pm

Social class is definitely an important consideration, but I would not equate that to first-gen college graduate.

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Re: OCI winding up: would you recommend LS to your peers now?

Postby Aberzombie1892 » Tue Sep 14, 2010 3:39 pm

Well what I mean is, the first generation college graduate would be better off doing one of the following than going to law school:
1. Entering the workforce
2. Attending Med school
3. Going to Business School
4. Getting a Ph. D.

Why take an unnecessary risk?




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