T6 New York Law Student OCI Experience

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spondee
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Re: T6 New York Law Student OCI Experience

Postby spondee » Sun Sep 12, 2010 8:17 am

OperaSoprano wrote:When things don't go as planned, it's natural to look for a reason why, but it's erroneous just to assume that OP made some fundamental error in bidding or interviewing.


I'm not sure why this is erroneous. While it's possible that OP did everything right and just had really bad luck, it's also possible (and perhaps more likely) that there's an explanation. If the reason is something like interviewing, which can be changed, then OP could correct it rather than making the same mistake and continuing to not get a job.

The position the OP is in is tough. I feel for him/her. My classmates at NYU are an impressive bunch, and while none of us deserve a job, we're all well qualified for a great job. And I want to see us all get one. Prodding OP to think about what went wrong was definitely meant to be helpful.

Action Jackson
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Re: T6 New York Law Student OCI Experience

Postby Action Jackson » Sun Sep 12, 2010 9:54 am

spondee wrote:
OperaSoprano wrote:The position the OP is in is tough. I feel for him/her. My classmates at NYU are an impressive bunch, and while none of us deserve a job, we're all well qualified for a great job. And I want to see us all get one. Prodding OP to think about what went wrong was definitely meant to be helpful.

I think it this is the opposite of entitlement -- it's a lack of respect for the qualifications and experiences of the people in question. If you're going to a top 14 law school, spending hundreds of thousands of dollars on a degree, and working hard enough to do well, you DO deserve a job. By any measure you've EARNED it.

This is why the student loan bubble has to burst. It's one thing to say you don't deserve a law degree when it cost you $30k to get it, but it's another thing when you've put $200k in to get it. We're investing a lot, and it's not unreasonable to expect a return on that investment. The fact that there's not, and moreover that our CP&P's aren't doing busting their asses to help us, is super shitty. We DESERVE better.

spondee
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Re: T6 New York Law Student OCI Experience

Postby spondee » Sun Sep 12, 2010 10:54 am

I get what you're saying, but I think it's a dangerous attitude. A job isn't something you earned in the past; it's something you are always earning in the present. That's a cheesy way to put it, but the best I can come up pre-coffee.

For example, job hunting requires a lot of initiative but OCI is structured in opposite to that: just fill out the right form at the right time. Too many students seem to passively let OCI happen to them. Then when something goes wrong, it's blamed on someone else, and the student struggling isn't able to identify the mistake, correct it, and do better.

270910
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Re: T6 New York Law Student OCI Experience

Postby 270910 » Sun Sep 12, 2010 10:56 am

spondee wrote:I get what you're saying, but I think it's a dangerous attitude. A job isn't something you earned in the past; it's something you are always earning in the present. That's a cheesy way to put it, but the best I can come up pre-coffee.

For example, job hunting requires a lot of initiative but OCI is structured in opposite to that: just fill out the right form at the right time. Too many students seem to passively let OCI happen to them. Then when something goes wrong, it's blamed on someone else, and the student struggling isn't able to identify the mistake, correct it, and do better.


In 2010 OCI, you don't need to do something wrong to fail to get a job. That's a concept a lot of people struggle with ITT and elsewhere, but it's absolutely true.

Granted, I also know people who do things wrong and thus hurt their chances of getting a job. And doing everything right increases dramatically your chances of landing a job from OCI. But one of the fundamental truths of this horrible economy is that all of the moxy and initiative and interviewing skills and credentials in the world might not save you if the roulette wheel stops the wrong way when you're up for consideration.

spondee
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Re: T6 New York Law Student OCI Experience

Postby spondee » Sun Sep 12, 2010 11:16 am

If it was a roulette wheel, then it wouldn't be as common as it is for two students to have the same GPA but one to have 10 CBs and one to have zero. The difference may lie in something unchangeable, like undergrad, but it may lie in things that can be changed. As much as the bad economy deserves a lot of blame, it's too easy to blame the economy and take no action.

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Re: T6 New York Law Student OCI Experience

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Sep 12, 2010 12:20 pm

spondee wrote:If it was a roulette wheel, then it wouldn't be as common as it is for two students to have the same GPA but one to have 10 CBs and one to have zero. The difference may lie in something unchangeable, like undergrad, but it may lie in things that can be changed. As much as the bad economy deserves a lot of blame, it's too easy to blame the economy and take no action.


OP has said that he's had no trouble getting jobs, and making and keeping friends and relationships. And while there's a chance that's he's someone who was overqualified for those jobs anyway, or who overestimates the strength of those relationships, I think given that information there is a much bigger chance OP is someone with a good, but not unforgettable, personality, like most people at CLS/NYU.

Telling someone they should make eye contact, not ramble on about 18th Century whaling, or ask if the interviewer gets drunk at work is different than being able to have the kind of personality that gets the interviewer to specifically remember your name out of 20 people he sits with that day. At that point it could just come down to luck- you have three interviewers who like mountain climbing and you have that on your resume, while a former violinist meets nobody who likes classical music, or you have more who just won motions or closed deals and are in a good mood while other people have some who are knee deep in work.

NYAssociate
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Re: T6 New York Law Student OCI Experience

Postby NYAssociate » Sun Sep 12, 2010 12:27 pm

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Last edited by NYAssociate on Tue Oct 05, 2010 7:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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RVP11
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Re: T6 New York Law Student OCI Experience

Postby RVP11 » Sun Sep 12, 2010 2:46 pm

OperaSoprano wrote:Establishing rapport with people and getting them to like you is necessary but not sufficient, even if you also have the grades. I can well believe that OP did everything right and deserves better than people's scorn for his or her efforts.


Strongly disagree with the bolded. Interviewing really is as simple as (1) showing you're capable (which is already done for you if you have grades that meet or exceed the firm's standards) and (2) building rapport (which is often done by just showing you're confident, socially adept, and a pleasant person).

I can't help but think OP is struggling with (2).

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Re: T6 New York Law Student OCI Experience

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Sep 12, 2010 3:18 pm

V20 Associate here (and graduate of another T6 school). OP, I'm quite sympathetic to your plight. Going through OCI and striking out truly stinks.

But, to challenge you a little (and give you some advice on going forward):

How sure are you on your top-33-40%? Are you assuming median of 3.0 or 3.3, for example? If you're assuming a 3.0, a 3.2 would be seemingly above median and in the range you're thinking about, but you would have absolutely no shot at getting through our doors this year.

Why were you splitting between NY/CA? CA, outside of LA, is going to be very tough to break into without some specific geographic or work-related ties (i.e., Silicon Valley for emerging markets work with relevant background). San Francisco is possibly tied with DC as the hardest geographic spot in the country to get a job right now; just too many overqualified bodies seeking too few spots. If you were applying to 5 top-tier firms' San Francisco offices without a tie (or even worse, applying to regional / satellite offices there), you were probably dead in the water.

What level of selectivity were the firms you were targeting? How many did you apply to total? I ask because if the "V70" range firms you applied to were places like Cahill (where you went on and on about how you wanted to do 1st Amendment with Floyd Abrams) or places you knew nothing about that were aiming for 10-person summer classes, you may have shot yourself in the foot.

What's your approach to interviewing that makes you think you're so great? While you may be witty and charming, if you don't know anything about the firms you're meeting with your charm isn't enough. I'm sure that, for example, an interviewer at Proskauer would be much more excited about you talking to him about a recent merger rather than "I want to do sports law."

Lastly, though, I'll say - don't despair. Many firms still have not completed their hiring and would be willing to consider you (whether you're a 3.4 or a 3.2 - just will need to adjust your aims accordingly). Good luck...

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Re: T6 New York Law Student OCI Experience

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Sep 12, 2010 3:25 pm

OP, I feel your pain. I'm a transfer to HYS from another T14 school, I had over 50 interviews at OCI and I haven't had one callback.

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Re: T6 New York Law Student OCI Experience

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Sep 12, 2010 3:44 pm

Anonymous User wrote:OP, I feel your pain. I'm a transfer to HYS from another T14 school, I had over 50 interviews at OCI and I haven't had one callback.


Maybe I'm an idiot and just not seeing a very obvious reason here, but I'm super curious as to why you transferred.

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Re: T6 New York Law Student OCI Experience

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Sep 12, 2010 3:50 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:OP, I feel your pain. I'm a transfer to HYS from another T14 school, I had over 50 interviews at OCI and I haven't had one callback.


Maybe I'm an idiot and just not seeing a very obvious reason here, but I'm super curious as to why you transferred.



HYS has even better options than the other T14. People routinely transfer to HYS from CLS (where I am).

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Re: T6 New York Law Student OCI Experience

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Sep 12, 2010 3:52 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:OP, I feel your pain. I'm a transfer to HYS from another T14 school, I had over 50 interviews at OCI and I haven't had one callback.


Maybe I'm an idiot and just not seeing a very obvious reason here, but I'm super curious as to why you transferred.



HYS has even better options than the other T14. People routinely transfer to HYS from CLS (where I am).


The OP of the above series of quotes would seem to negate that hypothesis.

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Re: T6 New York Law Student OCI Experience

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Sep 12, 2010 3:55 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:OP, I feel your pain. I'm a transfer to HYS from another T14 school, I had over 50 interviews at OCI and I haven't had one callback.


Maybe I'm an idiot and just not seeing a very obvious reason here, but I'm super curious as to why you transferred.



HYS has even better options than the other T14. People routinely transfer to HYS from CLS (where I am).


The OP of the above series of quotes would seem to negate that hypothesis.


Actually, I transferred for lifestyle reasons. But yeah, I assumed that I'd increase my chances of getting a job out of OCI.

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BruceWayne
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Re: T6 New York Law Student OCI Experience

Postby BruceWayne » Sun Sep 12, 2010 3:58 pm

Anonymous User wrote:V20 Associate here (and graduate of another T6 school). OP, I'm quite sympathetic to your plight. Going through OCI and striking out truly stinks.

But, to challenge you a little (and give you some advice on going forward):

How sure are you on your top-33-40%? Are you assuming median of 3.0 or 3.3, for example? If you're assuming a 3.0, a 3.2 would be seemingly above median and in the range you're thinking about, but you would have absolutely no shot at getting through our doors this year.

Why were you splitting between NY/CA? CA, outside of LA, is going to be very tough to break into without some specific geographic or work-related ties (i.e., Silicon Valley for emerging markets work with relevant background). San Francisco is possibly tied with DC as the hardest geographic spot in the country to get a job right now; just too many overqualified bodies seeking too few spots. If you were applying to 5 top-tier firms' San Francisco offices without a tie (or even worse, applying to regional / satellite offices there), you were probably dead in the water.

What level of selectivity were the firms you were targeting? How many did you apply to total? I ask because if the "V70" range firms you applied to were places like Cahill (where you went on and on about how you wanted to do 1st Amendment with Floyd Abrams) or places you knew nothing about that were aiming for 10-person summer classes, you may have shot yourself in the foot.

What's your approach to interviewing that makes you think you're so great? While you may be witty and charming, if you don't know anything about the firms you're meeting with your charm isn't enough. I'm sure that, for example, an interviewer at Proskauer would be much more excited about you talking to him about a recent merger rather than "I want to do sports law."

Lastly, though, I'll say - don't despair. Many firms still have not completed their hiring and would be willing to consider you (whether you're a 3.4 or a 3.2 - just will need to adjust your aims accordingly). Good luck...


Are you saying that LA doesn't require ties?

rcb5142
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Re: T6 New York Law Student OCI Experience

Postby rcb5142 » Sun Sep 12, 2010 4:18 pm

BruceWayne wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:V20 Associate here (and graduate of another T6 school). OP, I'm quite sympathetic to your plight. Going through OCI and striking out truly stinks.

But, to challenge you a little (and give you some advice on going forward):

How sure are you on your top-33-40%? Are you assuming median of 3.0 or 3.3, for example? If you're assuming a 3.0, a 3.2 would be seemingly above median and in the range you're thinking about, but you would have absolutely no shot at getting through our doors this year.

Why were you splitting between NY/CA? CA, outside of LA, is going to be very tough to break into without some specific geographic or work-related ties (i.e., Silicon Valley for emerging markets work with relevant background). San Francisco is possibly tied with DC as the hardest geographic spot in the country to get a job right now; just too many overqualified bodies seeking too few spots. If you were applying to 5 top-tier firms' San Francisco offices without a tie (or even worse, applying to regional / satellite offices there), you were probably dead in the water.

What level of selectivity were the firms you were targeting? How many did you apply to total? I ask because if the "V70" range firms you applied to were places like Cahill (where you went on and on about how you wanted to do 1st Amendment with Floyd Abrams) or places you knew nothing about that were aiming for 10-person summer classes, you may have shot yourself in the foot.

What's your approach to interviewing that makes you think you're so great? While you may be witty and charming, if you don't know anything about the firms you're meeting with your charm isn't enough. I'm sure that, for example, an interviewer at Proskauer would be much more excited about you talking to him about a recent merger rather than "I want to do sports law."

Lastly, though, I'll say - don't despair. Many firms still have not completed their hiring and would be willing to consider you (whether you're a 3.4 or a 3.2 - just will need to adjust your aims accordingly). Good luck...


Are you saying that LA doesn't require ties?


He's saying that LA w/o ties is a lot easier than SF or SV w/o ties. This should be obvious to you given the size and expectations of the LA legal market as compared with other CA markets. Sigh.

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BruceWayne
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Re: T6 New York Law Student OCI Experience

Postby BruceWayne » Sun Sep 12, 2010 6:13 pm

He's saying that LA w/o ties is a lot easier than SF or SV w/o ties. This should be obvious to you given the size and expectations of the LA legal market as compared with other CA markets. Sigh.[/quote]


Because clearly I have researched the sizes of United States legal markets. If anything I would guess purely off of the size of the metro areas, which would lead to me thinking Houston and Dallas are some of the easiest markets to break into without ties--which they aren't. Believe it or not everyone doesn't limit their social interactions to people who use terms like "top 14" and "secondary market". Most non legal people would look at you like you were crazy for calling places like LA and Houston "secondary markets".

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Re: T6 New York Law Student OCI Experience

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Sep 12, 2010 6:31 pm

BruceWayne wrote:He's saying that LA w/o ties is a lot easier than SF or SV w/o ties. This should be obvious to you given the size and expectations of the LA legal market as compared with other CA markets. Sigh.



Because clearly I have researched the sizes of United States legal markets. If anything I would guess purely off of the size of the metro areas, which would lead to me thinking Houston and Dallas are some of the easiest markets to break into without ties--which they aren't. Believe it or not everyone doesn't limit their social interactions to people who use terms like "top 14" and "secondary market". Most non legal people would look at you like you were crazy for calling places like LA and Houston "secondary markets".[/quote]

Seriously, if you think that LA's legal market size with respect to San Francisco means that ties are less relevant, you're well on your way to an OCI fail. I'd actually argue that you can get away with shakier ties to Bay Area if you have a tech background. Either way, without top 25%-ish grades, California was brutal even with ties, and in OP's range, no CBs would be no surprise. Someone in that range without CBs in New York on the other hand... hard to believe for a non-transfer...

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Re: T6 New York Law Student OCI Experience

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Sep 13, 2010 2:21 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:OP, I feel your pain. I'm a transfer to HYS from another T14 school, I had over 50 interviews at OCI and I haven't had one callback.


Maybe I'm an idiot and just not seeing a very obvious reason here, but I'm super curious as to why you transferred.



HYS has even better options than the other T14. People routinely transfer to HYS from CLS (where I am).

No they don't. There were like, 1-2 out of the class of 2012, and one was for personal reasons.

Anonymous User
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Re: T6 New York Law Student OCI Experience

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Sep 13, 2010 2:21 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:FWIW, I'll second OP's viewpoint and back what he suggests as the alternative track to taking on a huge debt at a T14.

I am a TTT 2L who chose my school for the lifestyle, location, and a reasonably good specialty. Not that it's easy to do what OP is suggesting, but it is possible if you do well at a TTT. I'm top 1-2%, LR, well-involved, strong UG/graduate degrees, and I've had four BigLaw CBs so far in a tough secondary market. One has already extended an offer.

The thing is, your alumni network will advocate for you if they can. At least, mine has and it has paid off. My results so far demonstrate that the lower-ranked law school strategy can be more valuable than paying $70,000 for 20 OCIs (again - stressing that you do well). Don't get me wrong, I know the $70,000 T14 golden parachute is a good bargain if you are not confident you can be top 3% at a lower-ranked school with decently placed alumni.

Good luck everyone.


Not to quibble with the above but there is something to be said about educational quality at a top school vs ttt and also networking with your peers (as opposed to strictly alums), most of whom will land great private sector jobs as opposed to the 5 or so ppl at your school who might. OP, however, didn't make the 'full-fledged ttt w/ full ride>t14' argument that you seem to be implying. Glad things worked out for you; you made a risky bet and got a very, very high reward (at least relative to the majority of your peers). Grats!


You can say that you didn't mean to quibble, but I don't believe you. It's a natural consequence that you want to defend your decision based on educational quality. And certainly you can claim that your educational quality is better, but I disagree. Taking civpro as an example, I have studied the same rules that you did, and while perhaps you had Arthur Miller in person, I had him on tape and a student of his who was a clerk for 18 years in various federal courts. I'm also the type of person who is a lifelong learner and reasonably good observer for nuances given that I went to top undergrad/grad schools. What I didn't make my decision on was prestige. I don't believe I sacrificed educational quality, although perhaps I did sacrifice depth in particular areas (i.e. limited advance coursework in particular areas).

The main issue with which I will agree is that you have value-added from networking with your peers. Most of my peers want to engage in public interest law which will be of little value to me in trying to create a book of business. But I'm not dime-a-dozen like you will be in BigLaw, and therefore my relationships with alums who do choose non-public interest will likely be more meaningful than yours. Just saying.

I know OP didn't make the TTT argument; but I'm using an extreme to illustrate his more moderate proposal which I think anyone should consider more seriously than they really do. Of course, I think the path has limited applicability and a higher return if you have other characteristics going for you (like top UG/grad which you can use for networking, top grades, etc.).

Again, not to quibble, just felt a need to respond to your reasoning.

People clerk for 18 years???????

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bwv812
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Re: T6 New York Law Student OCI Experience

Postby bwv812 » Mon Sep 13, 2010 2:47 am

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Last edited by bwv812 on Fri Nov 26, 2010 5:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: T6 New York Law Student OCI Experience

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Sep 13, 2010 3:02 am

bwv812 wrote:And the latest ABA data sheet shows 7 outgoing transfers. Where are these 5-6 other kids going, if not to HYS?

Pretty sure this is for the class of 2010. And I have no idea what they did. I can only speak to 2012. (And apparently class of 08 had 1. Can't find any other data.)




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