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I am really torn.

Big Secondary Market paying 160K (think Atlanta, Houston, etc): No Income Tax. Great Apartment. Big Office.
NYC: Prestige? Culture?

I am anonymous because I don't want to out myself. Admin, Please delete this thread if it is inappropriate for Anon posting.

what's your ultimate goal? become partner? lateral to fed gov? new york gives more exit options, but QOL in the secondary market is probably a lot higher because you probably have less billables

Anonymous User wrote:what's your ultimate goal? become partner? lateral to fed gov? new york gives more exit options, but QOL in the secondary market is probably a lot higher because you probably have less billables

Goal: not be fired, and live comfortably.

Anonymous User wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:what's your ultimate goal? become partner? lateral to fed gov? new york gives more exit options, but QOL in the secondary market is probably a lot higher because you probably have less billables

Goal: not be fired, and live comfortably.

In that case, secondary market is probably far better.

vanwinkle wrote: In that case, secondary market is probably far better.

This is so true, and I really don't know why it's overlooked so much on this board. Surprisingly, a lot of people really don't mind the idea of working at a firm for 3 years and then being pushed out. Either that, or they aren't aware how common that track is in the big Vault NYC firms.

Anonymous User wrote:I am really torn.

Big Secondary Market paying 160K (think Atlanta, Houston, etc): No Income Tax. Great Apartment. Big Office.
NYC: Prestige? Culture?

I am anonymous because I don't want to out myself. Admin, Please delete this thread if it is inappropriate for Anon posting.

Where has no income tax?

mikecw23 wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:I am really torn.

Big Secondary Market paying 160K (think Atlanta, Houston, etc): No Income Tax. Great Apartment. Big Office.
NYC: Prestige? Culture?

I am anonymous because I don't want to out myself. Admin, Please delete this thread if it is inappropriate for Anon posting.

Where has no income tax?

I think that makes it pretty obvious that it's one of the Texas cities. If that's the case I would run there and not look back.

I meant no State Income Tax. But doesn't V20 mean job security and great exit options?

BruceWayne wrote:

mikecw23 wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:I am really torn.

Big Secondary Market paying 160K (think Atlanta, Houston, etc): No Income Tax. Great Apartment. Big Office.
NYC: Prestige? Culture?

I am anonymous because I don't want to out myself. Admin, Please delete this thread if it is inappropriate for Anon posting.

Where has no income tax?

I think that makes it pretty obvious that it's one of the Texas cities. If that's the case I would run there and not look back.

Dumb me trying to be more vague. Really? in NYC, people work for 3 years and then get shoved out?

Anonymous User wrote:I am really torn.

Big Secondary Market paying 160K (think Atlanta, Houston, etc): No Income Tax. Great Apartment. Big Office.
NYC: Prestige? Culture?

I am anonymous because I don't want to out myself. Admin, Please delete this thread if it is inappropriate for Anon posting.

If you make market in Atlanta, you'll live pretty sweet - its a cheap city and its on the up and up.
Good luck making a decision, not sure you can go wrong here.

I wonder if you can transition from NY to these secondary markets reltively easily

One thing I heard was that you can move to the secondary market after working few years in V20. It does make an intuitive sense. The firm does not have to train you so I don't know why they wouldn't like you.

subjective fit -- in which one could you better see yourself working 12 hrs a day?

Seattle?

Unless this secondary market is SF, your money is going to go a hell of a lot further than it will in NYC.

Anonymous User wrote:One thing I heard was that you can move to the secondary market after working few years in V20. It does make an intuitive sense.

It does? If you can move immediately to a top firm in a secondary market, and it's your long-term goal to be in that secondary market, why dick around somewhere else and miss out on establishing early connections in the city?

Anonymous User wrote:what's your ultimate goal? become partner? lateral to fed gov? new york gives more exit options, but QOL in the secondary market is probably a lot higher because you probably have less billables

I'd be careful with this assumption. It's my understanding that the satellite offices of V20 firms and their ilk have the same billable requirements (and billing rates) as the major market offices. If you want true secondary market billable requirements, look into true secondary market firms.

BruceWayne wrote:

vanwinkle wrote: In that case, secondary market is probably far better.

This is so true, and I really don't know why it's overlooked so much on this board. Surprisingly, a lot of people really don't mind the idea of working at a firm for 3 years and then being pushed out. Either that, or they aren't aware how common that track is in the big Vault NYC firms.

uh... big law in basically every market involves high leverage and high junior associate turnover. It's the business model. NYC is often an exaggerated form of the business model, but look up ANY firm with 160 starting in a big market and you'll see a high leverage / high turnover model.

Plus, even in NYC "pushed out" and "wanted to get the fuck out" are quite distinct. Yeah, there's an element of up or out - but a lot of NYC attrition is voluntary.

With respect to hours, it's undisputed that NYC biglaw is the worst. But I think people miss that secondary biglaw hours are still BAD. A billing target of 1800-1900 hours per year still requires a lot of work, and the nature of the business means you're going to have a degree of unpredictability in your schedule no matter where you work.

Compensation is something else people often overlook. The 1-8 year associate track, plus the bonus structure in good times, is hugely different in NYC than in most secondary market firms. The starting salary gets damn near standardized because that's what everyone looks at, but it's not at all uncommon for yearly lockstep raises in secondary markets to be a pittance compared to NYC yearly 15-25K raises.

There's a lot to recommend about secondary market biglaw - and honestly the biggest factor really should be where you want to live and what kind of law you want to practice, because those will be the biggest differences on the day to day basis. But secondary biglaw isn't magic fairy land where all of the suck is drained away and partners and soon-to-be partner associates pound jager bombs on the beach at 4:00 PM after work Monday-Thursday when they actually go into the office.

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disco_barred wrote:But secondary biglaw isn't magic fairy land where all of the suck is drained away and partners and soon-to-be partner associates pound jager bombs on the beach at 4:00 PM after work Monday-Thursday when they actually go into the office.

A lawyer from a secondary market interviewing me during EIW:

"If its really sunny out, the office is pretty empty by 2 or 3pm on Fridays. But thats just our culture, man, we work hard but our city is really laid back."


One of you is lying.

ihatelaw wrote:

disco_barred wrote:But secondary biglaw isn't magic fairy land where all of the suck is drained away and partners and soon-to-be partner associates pound jager bombs on the beach at 4:00 PM after work Monday-Thursday when they actually go into the office.

A lawyer from a secondary market interviewing me during EIW:

"If its really sunny out, the office is pretty empty by 2 or 3pm on Fridays. But thats just our culture, man, we work hard but our city is really laid back."

One of you is lying.

A Skadden lawyer tried to convince me that billables north of 2000 and weekend work were rare in their NYC office. A friend had a Boies Schiller interview where they said the billing structure there meant there was no pressure to bill crazy amounts and that you could really just do as much work as you wanted and it would be no big deal.

.

If you want to live comfortably and generate personal wealth, secondary without question. Your takehome pay is going to be significantly higher absent city & state tax, and with COL, $160k in Texas means twice that in New York. Not to mention that the difference is even greater when you look at real estate - a large house simply isn't obtainable in NYC without a tremendous commute and a condo will cost millions for something of comparable location & quality in the secondary market.

And you won't work nearly as hard. You'll work hard, but 400 billable hours a year less is akin to two pretty intense months. Last I checked, we haven't colonized Mars yet, so all years have 365 days in them.

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BruceWayne wrote:

mikecw23 wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:I am really torn.

Big Secondary Market paying 160K (think Atlanta, Houston, etc): No Income Tax. Great Apartment. Big Office.
NYC: Prestige? Culture?

I am anonymous because I don't want to out myself. Admin, Please delete this thread if it is inappropriate for Anon posting.

Where has no income tax?

I think that makes it pretty obvious that it's one of the Texas cities. If that's the case I would run there and not look back.

Florida, Washington (state), Nevada, Wyoming, South Dakota, and Alaska also have no state income tax.

If not Texas, it could be a FLA firm or one in Seattle.

What about the difference between BigTex law firms (V&E, BB, FJ) and firms like Jones Day, GDC, Weil, etc with offices in TX? Is the billables/QOL difference going to be massive? Where would it make more sense to start your career if you had the choice?