importance of "picking the right firm" right outa law school

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Anonymous User
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importance of "picking the right firm" right outa law school

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Sep 01, 2010 3:50 pm

If i choose the wrong firm, say - one where i dont get mentorship, or i figure out within a few years that i dont wanna be here, it seems like its relatively easy to lateral out to other firms (conversations with lawyers, practitioner/prof, and headhunter)

so it doesnt really matter where you "start" - with the exception of some firms with a senseless "no laterals" policy. Also, another caveat - I'm assuming the "start" won't be in shitlaw, but a comparable biglaw firm.

am I right or am I a moron?
Last edited by Anonymous User on Wed Sep 01, 2010 3:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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ResolutePear
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Re: importance of "picking the right firm"

Postby ResolutePear » Wed Sep 01, 2010 3:51 pm

ITE.... fuck it, no point in typing this.

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Re: importance of "picking the right firm" right outa law school

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Sep 01, 2010 3:52 pm

op here, if you get more than 5 cbs, i think its reasonable to assume u'll be in a position of choice, and if you surf around - a good bunch of us have 5+ callbacks
Last edited by Anonymous User on Wed Sep 01, 2010 3:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: importance of "picking the right firm"

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Sep 01, 2010 3:54 pm

Given that hiring is down in this economy, I think that those who land big law jobs will be in great shape if they are looking to lateral after 3-5 years of employment, assuming big law recovers. There will be so few mid-level associates that I think they will be in demand. But if big law never recovers, then perhaps lateraling will be no easier than getting hired as a SA.

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Re: importance of "picking the right firm" right outa law school

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Sep 01, 2010 3:55 pm

great point above; small first-year classes will result in small 4th year classes 4 years from now

PiersonVee
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Re: importance of "picking the right firm" right outa law school

Postby PiersonVee » Wed Sep 01, 2010 3:57 pm

Just double down on your law-school-picking strategy, and go with the most prestigious one. :D No seriously, you will have exit options at any good law firm, but at some point, you have to make a choice.

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Re: importance of "picking the right firm" right outa law school

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Sep 01, 2010 4:04 pm

Anonymous User wrote:op here, if you get more than 5 cbs, i think its reasonable to assume u'll be in a position of choice, and if you surf around - a good bunch of us have 5+ callbacks


LOL u wish. Lots of people strike out with 10+ ITE.

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Re: importance of "picking the right firm" right outa law school

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Sep 01, 2010 4:13 pm

Frankly, if you're at 10+ and get no-offered, there HAS to be something going on with interviewing skills, or some criminal background check thing

Even assuming only 30% callback-offer rate for ALL ten callbacks, the odds of getting ZERO offers with those probabilities is .3^10

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Re: importance of "picking the right firm" right outa law school

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Sep 01, 2010 4:22 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Frankly, if you're at 10+ and get no-offered, there HAS to be something going on with interviewing skills, or some criminal background check thing

Even assuming only 30% callback-offer rate for ALL ten callbacks, the odds of getting ZERO offers with those probabilities is .3^10


Lot less than 30% ITE dude. If you're marginal on the grades you might get a decent number of callbacks, but unless you really wow the interviewers they'll take the guy with the slightly higher grades.

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Re: importance of "picking the right firm" right outa law school

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Sep 01, 2010 4:30 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Frankly, if you're at 10+ and get no-offered, there HAS to be something going on with interviewing skills, or some criminal background check thing

Even assuming only 30% callback-offer rate for ALL ten callbacks, the odds of getting ZERO offers with those probabilities is .3^10


Lot less than 30% ITE dude. If you're marginal on the grades you might get a decent number of callbacks, but unless you really wow the interviewers they'll take the guy with the slightly higher grades.


This seems to be counter to everything else we've seen.

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Re: importance of "picking the right firm" right outa law school

Postby PiersonVee » Wed Sep 01, 2010 4:32 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Frankly, if you're at 10+ and get no-offered, there HAS to be something going on with interviewing skills, or some criminal background check thing

Even assuming only 30% callback-offer rate for ALL ten callbacks, the odds of getting ZERO offers with those probabilities is .3^10


Lot less than 30% ITE dude. If you're marginal on the grades you might get a decent number of callbacks, but unless you really wow the interviewers they'll take the guy with the slightly higher grades.


This seems to be counter to everything else we've seen.

+1

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Re: importance of "picking the right firm" right outa law school

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Sep 01, 2010 4:32 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Frankly, if you're at 10+ and get no-offered, there HAS to be something going on with interviewing skills, or some criminal background check thing

Even assuming only 30% callback-offer rate for ALL ten callbacks, the odds of getting ZERO offers with those probabilities is .3^10


I misspoke above, the probability of getting no-offered after 10 callbacks at a 30% cb-offer rate is .7^10 = 3% - or a 97% of getting a gig

The probability of getting no-offered at a 20% cb-offer rate is 10%, or a 90% chance of getting a gig

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Re: importance of "picking the right firm" right outa law school

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Sep 01, 2010 4:34 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Frankly, if you're at 10+ and get no-offered, there HAS to be something going on with interviewing skills, or some criminal background check thing

Even assuming only 30% callback-offer rate for ALL ten callbacks, the odds of getting ZERO offers with those probabilities is .3^10


Lot less than 30% ITE dude. If you're marginal on the grades you might get a decent number of callbacks, but unless you really wow the interviewers they'll take the guy with the slightly higher grades.


I'm at a T6. Based on an average of the 25 firms I interviewed with in EIP (not purely random, but I think close enough), the callback-offer ratio was 76% in 2007, 55% in 2008, and 58% in 2009, so 30% seems pessimistic. 2009 was actually slightly better than 2008 and 2010 will probably be better. The screener-callback ratio is what really fell ITE (67% in 2007 to 55% in 2008 to only 25% in 2009).

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Re: importance of "picking the right firm" right outa law school

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Sep 01, 2010 4:35 pm

Here's some probability calculations for you:

CB-offer rate 2%, 10 callbacks: 20% of getting at least ONE offer
CB-offer rate 10%, 10 callbacks: 66% of getting at least ONE offer
CB-offer rate 20%, 10 callbacks: 90% of getting at least ONE offer
CB-offer rate 30%, 10 callbacks: 97% of getting at least ONE offer
CB-offer rate 40%, 10 callbacks: 99.4% of getting at least ONE offer
CB-offer rate 50%, 10 callbacks: 99.9% of getting at least ONE offer

So there you go, thats a nice table for those with 10 callbacks.

General formula being used: 100*(1-(cbofferrate*.01)^numberofcallbacks))
Last edited by Anonymous User on Wed Sep 01, 2010 4:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Cavalier
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Re: importance of "picking the right firm" right outa law school

Postby Cavalier » Wed Sep 01, 2010 4:36 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Frankly, if you're at 10+ and get no-offered, there HAS to be something going on with interviewing skills, or some criminal background check thing

Even assuming only 30% callback-offer rate for ALL ten callbacks, the odds of getting ZERO offers with those probabilities is .3^10

Lot less than 30% ITE dude. If you're marginal on the grades you might get a decent number of callbacks, but unless you really wow the interviewers they'll take the guy with the slightly higher grades.

I think the CB-offer rate was 46% last year - definitely lower than in years past, but not terrible. Obviously it varies from firm to firm though - some are under 30%, while others are over 80%. If you have 10 callbacks, you will get an offer, barring an economic meltdown that occurs before your callbacks. Obviously you shouldn't get cocky and not prepare, or worse, decline callbacks while you are still without an offer, but with even 5 callbacks I think anyone should be feeling good.

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Re: importance of "picking the right firm" right outa law school

Postby PiersonVee » Wed Sep 01, 2010 4:41 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Frankly, if you're at 10+ and get no-offered, there HAS to be something going on with interviewing skills, or some criminal background check thing

Even assuming only 30% callback-offer rate for ALL ten callbacks, the odds of getting ZERO offers with those probabilities is .3^10


Lot less than 30% ITE dude. If you're marginal on the grades you might get a decent number of callbacks, but unless you really wow the interviewers they'll take the guy with the slightly higher grades.


I'm at a T6. Based on an average of the 25 firms I interviewed with in EIP (not purely random, but I think close enough), the callback-offer ratio was 76% in 2007, 55% in 2008, and 58% in 2009, so 30% seems pessimistic. 2009 was actually slightly better than 2008 and 2010 will probably be better. The screener-callback ratio is what really fell ITE (67% in 2007 to 55% in 2008 to only 25% in 2009).

I have noticed that a lot of TLS posters have been making crazy assumptions about firms' callback and offer decisions, so I guess I'll add my crazy assumption to the mix. It is hard to imagine that a screener would put his/her reputation on the line by offering a callback to a student unless he/she thought that the student was a "good fit" at the firm. In determining whether a student is a "good fit," some firms place more weight on grades, while other firms place less weight on grades. The screeners know this. It seems silly to assume that grades suddenly matter more at the callback stage.

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Re: importance of "picking the right firm" right outa law school

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Sep 01, 2010 4:58 pm

Having talked to some hiring partners about this subject (I am a practicing attorney with more than a decade of experience), here is the real scoop in all its messiness.

No firm will call you back if you truly fall below some hard grade cutoff. So everyone has a chance. That said, it is the rare candidate that truly distinguishes him or herself in a callback interview in a positive meaningful way. Most of the time the evaluations that the hiring committee sees from interviewers say largely positive things about a candidate. Even partner interviewers tend to report largely positive things. So hiring committees get stuck with ten candidates with largely positive evaluation forms. When presented with that information, they then basically hire people based on grades.

You can occasionally get very lucky or unlucky. A few partners at some firms are known for taking very extreme views with respect to candidates. Usually those same partners will either fight hard to hire a candidate or to sink a candidate. If you happen to be interviewed by one of those partners, you may have shot with somewhat lower grades. But in the alternative, those partners will sometimes sink a candidate with strong grades who otherwise seems like a shoe in.

So essentially a handful of partners with strong views on hiring often account for most of the outliers in firm hiring.

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Re: importance of "picking the right firm" right outa law school

Postby XxSpyKEx » Wed Sep 01, 2010 6:11 pm

Anonymous User wrote:importance of "picking the right firm" right outa law school?


More like the importance of the "right firm" picking you right out of law school. The days of getting to pick and choose what firm you want to work at are done for most people, and they are lucky to get even one offer.




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