how is OCI at your school compared to 2009?

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NU_Jet55
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Re: how is OCI at your school compared to 2009?

Postby NU_Jet55 » Wed Sep 01, 2010 12:09 am

BruceWayne wrote:
shmoo597 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Top 20% at a T14 and I have 16 callbacks. Only top ~5% people who were strong interviewers were pulling that many callbacks last year. It's better.


t6 or t14? No way that a non-t6 top 20% is getting 16 callbacks unless they have excellent WE or an IP background.


:roll: You've got to be kidding me. This board has really filled up with nonsensical arbitrary ranking/placement claims. Other than US News (which actually doesn't factor in employment placement, and puts little value on the lawyer/judge prestige scores), what placement rankings have shown there to be a dramatic placement difference that starts at the "top 6"? Hell, the most recently released NLJ numbers show NU, UVA, and Michigan as 3 of the 6 highest placing schools. That data may not be perfect but at least it isn't pure conjecture like the above post.


LOL I like this dude

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Re: how is OCI at your school compared to 2009?

Postby Patriot1208 » Wed Sep 01, 2010 12:33 am

NU_Jet55 wrote:
BruceWayne wrote:
shmoo597 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Top 20% at a T14 and I have 16 callbacks. Only top ~5% people who were strong interviewers were pulling that many callbacks last year. It's better.


t6 or t14? No way that a non-t6 top 20% is getting 16 callbacks unless they have excellent WE or an IP background.


:roll: You've got to be kidding me. This board has really filled up with nonsensical arbitrary ranking/placement claims. Other than US News (which actually doesn't factor in employment placement, and puts little value on the lawyer/judge prestige scores), what placement rankings have shown there to be a dramatic placement difference that starts at the "top 6"? Hell, the most recently released NLJ numbers show NU, UVA, and Michigan as 3 of the 6 highest placing schools. That data may not be perfect but at least it isn't pure conjecture like the above post.


LOL I like this dude


Except, he's wrong. When you take in clerkships, prestigious PI, biglaw, prestigious government, and academia, the t6 is getting their classes a good 20%-25% lower in grades than those in the rest of the t14.

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BruceWayne
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Re: how is OCI at your school compared to 2009?

Postby BruceWayne » Wed Sep 01, 2010 12:44 am

Except, he's wrong. When you take in clerkships, prestigious PI, biglaw, prestigious government, and academia, the t6 is getting their classes a good 20%-25% lower in grades than those in the rest of the t14.


Wrong. Your argument about taking into account clerkships etc. really only works for HYS (as they actually verifiably place a massive number of their class into fed clerkships; as their released placement data shows). NYU and Columbia put less of their class into fed clerkships than UVA or Michigan (I'm not sure about NU). The number of people put into academia at any of Columbia, NYU, Michigan, UVA, or NU is so small that it's borderline insignificant. Prestigious PI placement is practically un ranked so I don't know where you came up with that (most schools simply lump their PI placement into the category of government and non government---if that). I"m sorry but there is definitely not a 20 percent cushion in your chance at getting a job between NYU and Michigan etc. (at least not for non NYC positions). I'm definitely open to the possibility for Columbia and Chicago though (since both of them pop up in the "top 6" of the NLJ rankings, and since there is this idea of the "top 6" on TLS).
Last edited by BruceWayne on Wed Sep 01, 2010 1:18 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: how is OCI at your school compared to 2009?

Postby Kafka » Wed Sep 01, 2010 12:57 am

^ Apparently only like 35% of people got BIGLAW SA gigs at last year's OCI at Michigan. NYU/Columbia ~70%. I don't know about you bro, but I want a jerb.

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Re: how is OCI at your school compared to 2009?

Postby BruceWayne » Wed Sep 01, 2010 1:03 am

Kafka wrote:^ Apparently only like 35% of people got BIGLAW SA gigs at last year's OCI at Michigan. NYU/Columbia ~70%. I don't know about you bro, but I want a jerb.


Is that data from The University of Michigan Law School Career Services, or is it from autoadmit.com and top-law-schools.com? If it's from the former then Michigan's rep really plummeted between the time of the latest nlj 250 placement studies and fall 2009.......


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Re: how is OCI at your school compared to 2009?

Postby BruceWayne » Wed Sep 01, 2010 1:16 am

Kafka wrote:http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1335649&mc=22&forum_id=2&PHPSESSID=01be48c6c50cfd7defddd7251c582f27


I see. Well it doesn't get much more reliable than autoadmit; I guess that settles it. The national law journal really needs to get their facts straight before they come out with these bogus placement studies, they could have at least verified with autoadmit before they released the info. http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... hbxlogin=1.

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Re: how is OCI at your school compared to 2009?

Postby Kafka » Wed Sep 01, 2010 1:23 am

BruceWayne wrote:
Kafka wrote:http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1335649&mc=22&forum_id=2&PHPSESSID=01be48c6c50cfd7defddd7251c582f27


I see. Well it doesn't get much more reliable than autoadmit; I guess that settles it. The national law journal really needs to get their facts straight before they come out with these bogus placement studies, they could have at least verified with autoadmit before they released the info. http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... hbxlogin=1.


Read the fucking thread, idiot.

Your little chart there says MVP are "go-to schools" over Harvard, NYU, Yale. Fucking LOL.
PLEASE go to MVP, bump this thread in 1 year and try not to cry.

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Re: how is OCI at your school compared to 2009?

Postby romothesavior » Wed Sep 01, 2010 1:24 am

BruceWayne wrote:
Kafka wrote:http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1335649&mc=22&forum_id=2&PHPSESSID=01be48c6c50cfd7defddd7251c582f27


I see. Well it doesn't get much more reliable than autoadmit; I guess that settles it. The national law journal really needs to get their facts straight before they come out with these bogus placement studies, they could have at least verified with autoadmit before they released the info. http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... hbxlogin=1.


--ImageRemoved--

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Re: how is OCI at your school compared to 2009?

Postby 270910 » Wed Sep 01, 2010 1:25 am

BruceWayne wrote:
Kafka wrote:http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1335649&mc=22&forum_id=2&PHPSESSID=01be48c6c50cfd7defddd7251c582f27


I see. Well it doesn't get much more reliable than autoadmit; I guess that settles it. The national law journal really needs to get their facts straight before they come out with these bogus placement studies, they could have at least verified with autoadmit before they released the info. http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... hbxlogin=1.


1) You are wise to be skeptical of autoadmit

2) The most recent NALP numbers are from the class of 2009. The class of 2009 did their summer programs in 2008. They were HIRED IN 2007. i.e. boom times. People are discussing more recent OCIs which have reflected more recent financial meltdowns. In other words, those NALP numbers were years outdated the second they were released. But thanks for playing.

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Re: how is OCI at your school compared to 2009?

Postby romothesavior » Wed Sep 01, 2010 1:28 am

disco_barred wrote:2) The most recent NALP numbers are from the class of 2009. The class of 2009 did their summer programs in 2008. They were HIRED IN 2007. i.e. boom times. People are discussing more recent OCIs which have reflected more recent financial meltdowns. In other words, those NALP numbers were years outdated the second they were released. But thanks for playing.


I was thinking about typing this almost exactly as you said it. But then I thought, "No, save your keystrokes. Disco will be here any minute and he can handle it."

Thank you for not disappointing.

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Re: how is OCI at your school compared to 2009?

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Sep 01, 2010 1:49 am

shmoo597 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Top 20% at a T14 and I have 16 callbacks. Only top ~5% people who were strong interviewers were pulling that many callbacks last year. It's better.


t6 or t14? No way that a non-t6 top 20% is getting 16 callbacks unless they have excellent WE or an IP background.


Yes way.

T10 - one of MVP, to be exact. One year of WE, not IP. Targeted NY, SoCal, and home secondary market.

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Re: how is OCI at your school compared to 2009?

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Sep 01, 2010 3:35 am

It "feels" better at my school (T20, not T14). I have double digit callbacks, but good grades. I also have a crappy personality so grades seem to matter more, for what anecdotal experience is worth.

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Re: how is OCI at your school compared to 2009?

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Sep 01, 2010 6:49 am

shmoo597 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Top 20% at a T14 and I have 16 callbacks. Only top ~5% people who were strong interviewers were pulling that many callbacks last year. It's better.


t6 or t14? No way that a non-t6 top 20% is getting 16 callbacks unless they have excellent WE or an IP background.


It all depends on what kind of firm you're targeting. I was top 15-20% at a TTT and had 16 callbacks last year. None of them were V100, but about 3/4 paid 100K+ and were very well respected within their markets. Yes, my WE was good, but not amazing or anything.

OCI is worse at my TTT this year, due to continued regional softness in the market.

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Re: how is OCI at your school compared to 2009?

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Sep 01, 2010 8:54 am

BruceWayne wrote:
shmoo597 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Top 20% at a T14 and I have 16 callbacks. Only top ~5% people who were strong interviewers were pulling that many callbacks last year. It's better.


t6 or t14? No way that a non-t6 top 20% is getting 16 callbacks unless they have excellent WE or an IP background.


:roll: You've got to be kidding me. This board has really filled up with nonsensical arbitrary ranking/placement claims. Other than US News (which actually doesn't factor in employment placement, and puts little value on the lawyer/judge prestige scores), what placement rankings have shown there to be a dramatic placement difference that starts at the "top 6"? Hell, the most recently released NLJ numbers show NU, UVA, and Michigan as 3 of the 6 highest placing schools. That data may not be perfect but at least it isn't pure conjecture like the above post.


Yeah, that CCN placing 70% is bogus, at least with respect to Columbia. Columbia said it has 266 offers out of last year's OCI, which is around 55%-60%, unless something like 70+ people did not do OCI last year.

I don't know why people keep spreading bogus numbers, but the main thing is if you want biglaw, the only safe bet is HYS.

And I think OCI this year is about the same as last year. People who are IP or top 10% are still getting a lot of callbacks, but they are pretty much the only ones getting double digit callbacks.

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Re: how is OCI at your school compared to 2009?

Postby BruceWayne » Wed Sep 01, 2010 10:50 am

Kafka wrote:
BruceWayne wrote:
Kafka wrote:http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1335649&mc=22&forum_id=2&PHPSESSID=01be48c6c50cfd7defddd7251c582f27


I see. Well it doesn't get much more reliable than autoadmit; I guess that settles it. The national law journal really needs to get their facts straight before they come out with these bogus placement studies, they could have at least verified with autoadmit before they released the info. http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... hbxlogin=1.


Read the fucking thread, idiot.

Your little chart there says MVP are "go-to schools" over Harvard, NYU, Yale. Fucking LOL.
PLEASE go to MVP, bump this thread in 1 year and try not to cry.


You have horrendous reading comp skills. Hmm let's see why might the chart have MVP over Harvard and Yale.....oh wait that's right H and Y put a huge number of their class into fed clerkships (as mentioned in my earlier post). Not only that but older NLJ charts actually show that in their diagram.

As far as the putting MVP above NYU and that somehow being a clear sign of the chart being unreliable (but an online anonymous echo chamber with absolutely no regulation is more reliable)all I can say is lol. You are the typical use TLS culture and overall numerical US News rank to determine placement rather than objective info. NYU has never had higher assessment scores than MVP (in fact it's lawyer judge has been lower than UVA/Mich for years), it places less of it's class into fed clerkships, comes out worse in the nlj 250, and has never out placed MVP in non NYC firms (and strangely doesn't really blow Penn out of the water when it comes to NYC). To top everything off you support your argument with a poorly thought out ad hominem comment. I'm in complete awe of your argumentative skills.

disco_barred wrote:1) You are wise to be skeptical of autoadmit

2) The most recent NALP numbers are from the class of 2009. The class of 2009 did their summer programs in 2008. They were HIRED IN 2007. i.e. boom times. People are discussing more recent OCIs which have reflected more recent financial meltdowns. In other words, those NALP numbers were years outdated the second they were released. But thanks for playing.


Do you understand just how terrible the line of reasoning is in 2) ? I am well aware that those numbers are old; I think everyone is.

However, your argument is basically as follows: The most recent reliable placement stats are old, so the best way to figure out what is now the closest proxy for placement is to totally throw away the most recent reliable placement numbers, and then guess that the current placement is whatever aligns most closely with US News overall numerical rank ( a publication that is open about the fact that placement is not one of their primary rankings criterion). So that's your argument and then just so I know how rock solid your reasoning is you finish it up with the ingenious line of "Thanks for playing".

The response by the poster whose post brought up this top 6 issue makes it pretty evident that he has no idea what he was talking about. Making it worse, multiple posters from outside the "top 6" have posted their job search status with results contradicting the "only top 6" could have that many callbacks. The truth is that there are a lot of things that go into whether or not you are able to get a job, going to a top 6 outside of HYS, isn't an automatic dividing line to determining whether or not that will happen.

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Re: how is OCI at your school compared to 2009?

Postby chadwick218 » Wed Sep 01, 2010 11:05 am

shmoo597 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Top 20% at a T14 and I have 16 callbacks. Only top ~5% people who were strong interviewers were pulling that many callbacks last year. It's better.


t6 or t14? No way that a non-t6 top 20% is getting 16 callbacks unless they have excellent WE or an IP background.


Redacted some stuff.
Last edited by chadwick218 on Thu Sep 02, 2010 11:42 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: how is OCI at your school compared to 2009?

Postby shortporch » Wed Sep 01, 2010 10:42 pm

Patriot1208 wrote:Except, he's wrong. When you take in clerkships, prestigious PI, biglaw, prestigious government, and academia, the t6 is getting their classes a good 20%-25% lower in grades than those in the rest of the t14.


I can't even count the number of ways this is incorrect.

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Re: how is OCI at your school compared to 2009?

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Sep 01, 2010 10:55 pm

Harvard OCS published a blog post today saying that EIP for the c/o 2011 resulted in an average of 5 callbacks per person. I don't have any way to know with 100% certainty whether people are doing better or worse, but from those I know, it would seem that people are doing better.

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Re: how is OCI at your school compared to 2009?

Postby Unemployed » Thu Sep 02, 2010 1:55 am

Anonymous User wrote:
BruceWayne wrote:
shmoo597 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Top 20% at a T14 and I have 16 callbacks. Only top ~5% people who were strong interviewers were pulling that many callbacks last year. It's better.


t6 or t14? No way that a non-t6 top 20% is getting 16 callbacks unless they have excellent WE or an IP background.


:roll: You've got to be kidding me. This board has really filled up with nonsensical arbitrary ranking/placement claims. Other than US News (which actually doesn't factor in employment placement, and puts little value on the lawyer/judge prestige scores), what placement rankings have shown there to be a dramatic placement difference that starts at the "top 6"? Hell, the most recently released NLJ numbers show NU, UVA, and Michigan as 3 of the 6 highest placing schools. That data may not be perfect but at least it isn't pure conjecture like the above post.


Yeah, that CCN placing 70% is bogus, at least with respect to Columbia. Columbia said it has 266 offers out of last year's OCI, which is around 55%-60%, unless something like 70+ people did not do OCI last year.

I don't know why people keep spreading bogus numbers, but the main thing is if you want biglaw, the only safe bet is HYS.

And I think OCI this year is about the same as last year. People who are IP or top 10% are still getting a lot of callbacks, but they are pretty much the only ones getting double digit callbacks.


The confusion about the 65-70% stat probably arose out of the following:

1) for some reason, the size of c/o 2011 increased from the 430's to 470's in the last few months (WTF? Did they take 3rd year transfers or what? Or did a bunch of people who took a year off in the bad economy come back?)

2) Last year, people apparently got 35 bids instead of 30. If you count up the number of bids from that handbook and divide by 35, you get 403.

I don't know what to believe anymore.

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Re: how is OCI at your school compared to 2009?

Postby Unemployed » Thu Sep 02, 2010 2:01 am

BruceWayne wrote:
disco_barred wrote:1) You are wise to be skeptical of autoadmit

2) The most recent NALP numbers are from the class of 2009. The class of 2009 did their summer programs in 2008. They were HIRED IN 2007. i.e. boom times. People are discussing more recent OCIs which have reflected more recent financial meltdowns. In other words, those NALP numbers were years outdated the second they were released. But thanks for playing.


Do you understand just how terrible the line of reasoning is in 2) ? I am well aware that those numbers are old; I think everyone is.

However, your argument is basically as follows: The most recent reliable placement stats are old, so the best way to figure out what is now the closest proxy for placement is to totally throw away the most recent reliable placement numbers, and then guess that the current placement is whatever aligns most closely with US News overall numerical rank ( a publication that is open about the fact that placement is not one of their primary rankings criterion). So that's your argument and then just so I know how rock solid your reasoning is you finish it up with the ingenious line of "Thanks for playing".

The response by the poster whose post brought up this top 6 issue makes it pretty evident that he has no idea what he was talking about. Making it worse, multiple posters from outside the "top 6" have posted their job search status with results contradicting the "only top 6" could have that many callbacks. The truth is that there are a lot of things that go into whether or not you are able to get a job, going to a top 6 outside of HYS, isn't an automatic dividing line to determining whether or not that will happen.


Stop putting words in other people's mouths. There isn't much reasoning in Disco's post - he just called you out for misreading the data. Own up to it rather than backpedalling.

I see. Well it doesn't get much more reliable than autoadmit; I guess that settles it. The national law journal really needs to get their facts straight before they come out with these bogus placement studies, they could have at least verified with autoadmit before they released the info. http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... hbxlogin=1.


You clearly thought the Nalp report covered the same year as the autoadmit thread.

Methinks Kurama is back - all of this NYU bashing w/ emphasis on their rep scores + (improper) accusation of ad hominem + bashing of other people's "reasoning skills" = Kurama with an MVP twist?

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Re: how is OCI at your school compared to 2009?

Postby shmoo597 » Thu Sep 02, 2010 2:42 am

BruceWayne wrote:The response by the poster whose post brought up this top 6 issue makes it pretty evident that he has no idea what he was talking about. Making it worse, multiple posters from outside the "top 6" have posted their job search status with results contradicting the "only top 6" could have that many callbacks. The truth is that there are a lot of things that go into whether or not you are able to get a job, going to a top 6 outside of HYS, isn't an automatic dividing line to determining whether or not that will happen.


I never said there was an automatic dividing line. I said that 16 callbacks as a top 20% student at a run of the mill t14 is virtually impossible without WE or an IP background.

Of course, nothing is totally impossible. Maybe this guy was a truly amazing interviewer or had an amazing resume, or bid very intelligently in the right markets with the right firms, and that is why he got 16 callbacks. I guess its possible.

But it is a very extreme outlier. Very. Extreme. Outlier. Even at the top schools, with the best grades, 16 callbacks this year is the exception rather then rule. Check out the spreadsheet being used in the NYU thread - virtually no one, not even the tippity top of the class, is pulling 16 callbacks.

You obviously have an agenda aimed at attacking the conventional wisdom and USNWR's oversized influence in the legal world. And you can point to data from the boom years. Or you can realize that 70% of NYU/CLS students got jobs at OCI last year (and in the case of NYU, the data is verified) and only 35-40% got jobs at michigan (this has not been released by the school - of course, why would they want people to know this?! - but has been discussed extensively on TLS by people with good data).

There are many reasons why 2009 NALP data might support totally different conclusions from what you are seeing today, and saw in 2009 in terms of OCI placement. NALP looks at the top 250 firms. I'm guessing that the top 50 firms have been affected by the economy way less than the bottom 50, and it may be that the top 50 are more likely to recruit and take students from the higher ranked schools.

Single anecdotes aside, from everything I've seen on TLS, the "t6" has it quite a bit easier then the rest of the t14. I'm not sure how you can even take issue with this.

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Re: how is OCI at your school compared to 2009?

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Sep 02, 2010 6:47 am

chadwick218 wrote:
shmoo597 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Top 20% at a T14 and I have 16 callbacks. Only top ~5% people who were strong interviewers were pulling that many callbacks last year. It's better.


t6 or t14? No way that a non-t6 top 20% is getting 16 callbacks unless they have excellent WE or an IP background.


Top 20% at a T14 w/ 18 CBs (mostly V15 - V75). However, I worked for 5 years prior to law school. I kinda have to agree with the snarky post though. The folks that I have seen getting 15+ CBs w/out top 10% grades or law review really seem to bring something else to the table. On the other hand, NU holds the top spot for % of graduates placed into big law firms.


Similar rank, 11 CBs (V5-V100). NU is an interesting place. I think firms have pretty decent grade-cutoffs here, with a few exceptions, but at a lot of places we're not the core recruiting school so we don't have many CB slots. That puts a bigger emphasis on WE/interview to get those available slots.

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Re: how is OCI at your school compared to 2009?

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Sep 02, 2010 8:51 am

Uh, IDK why people say schools don't have data from the 2009 OCI. CLS released to all of us these data, and it shows that ~65 - 70% of 2Ls (so, current 3Ls) got SA positions. The information included the firms that attended, the # of interviews, the # of CBs, and the # of SA offers. Our school releases this information (internally, to CLS students) in the spring.

And, this this OCI seems to be better than last year's OCI.

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Re: how is OCI at your school compared to 2009?

Postby BruceWayne » Thu Sep 02, 2010 9:07 am

Unemployed wrote:You clearly thought the Nalp report covered the same year as the autoadmit thread.

Methinks Kurama is back - all of this NYU bashing w/ emphasis on their rep scores + (improper) accusation of ad hominem + bashing of other people's "reasoning skills" = Kurama with an MVP twist?


I can't help you if you can't find the ad hominem it in this post. You may want to refrain from accusing someone of improperly using a term if you don't actually know what it means.

Read the fucking thread, idiot.

Your little chart there says MVP are "go-to schools" over Harvard, NYU, Yale. Fucking LOL.
PLEASE go to MVP, bump this thread in 1 year and try not to cry.


In response to the bolded your RC skills are atrocious. I stated multiple times that the data was obviously old, the point is that they are the most recent reliable data we have, and yet many are just completely throwing those away and guessing as to what current placement is with US News and internet rumor (read autoadmit) and treating it as fact. Worse yet, lets just say for arguments sake that I did think the data was the most recent, your argument is that since the autoadmit thread is current it's more reliable? Seriously, you really want your argument to rest on autoadmit.com? Suddenly quoting autoadmit is a trump card?
Last edited by BruceWayne on Thu Sep 02, 2010 12:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.




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