Low Grades and a Callback

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dresden doll
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Re: Low Grades and a Callback

Postby dresden doll » Tue Aug 31, 2010 6:33 pm

bilbobaggins wrote:The best system would be what consulting companies have been doing for years - give actual critical thinking questions and legal work during interviews. Measure applicants based on the sort of thing they'd actually be doing, rather than their ability to write a good essay in Torts.


Problem is, law school doesn't prepare for legal work so those with firm work over the summer would be - IMO unfairly - advantaged.

Not that I'd mind since I actually did get to do firm work this summer.

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Re: Low Grades and a Callback

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Aug 31, 2010 6:37 pm

dresden doll wrote:
bilbobaggins wrote:The best system would be what consulting companies have been doing for years - give actual critical thinking questions and legal work during interviews. Measure applicants based on the sort of thing they'd actually be doing, rather than their ability to write a good essay in Torts.


Problem is, law school doesn't prepare for legal work so those with firm work over the summer would be - IMO unfairly - advantaged.

Not that I'd mind since I actually did get to do firm work this summer.

college doesn't prepare students for consulting.

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dresden doll
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Re: Low Grades and a Callback

Postby dresden doll » Tue Aug 31, 2010 6:40 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
dresden doll wrote:
bilbobaggins wrote:The best system would be what consulting companies have been doing for years - give actual critical thinking questions and legal work during interviews. Measure applicants based on the sort of thing they'd actually be doing, rather than their ability to write a good essay in Torts.


Problem is, law school doesn't prepare for legal work so those with firm work over the summer would be - IMO unfairly - advantaged.

Not that I'd mind since I actually did get to do firm work this summer.

college doesn't prepare students for consulting.


In which case I'd imagine none of the college grads would be advantaged.

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Zugzwang
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Re: Low Grades and a Callback

Postby Zugzwang » Tue Aug 31, 2010 6:44 pm

dresden doll wrote:In which case I'd imagine none of the college grads would be advantaged.

Nope. UPenn students are better than pretty much all other college students at case interviewing. And contrary to what you think, a firm would likely ask you a question similar to questions in your torts exam.

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Re: Low Grades and a Callback

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Aug 31, 2010 6:47 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Which is all to say it's firm dependent.

I was one of four callbacks for a particular firm that typically "requires" top 10% or so and law review. There were two for the office which I was interested in (me and one other person), and 1 for each of their other two offices. The other callback for my office was neither top 10% nor law review. I am neither top 10% nor law review (probably top 1/3rd).

Unofficial callbacks were given on the spot (dinner invites, and then "we look forward to bringing you to our office to meet more of our attorneys.")

I highly doubt that the only two students from my school they'd CB -- which is one of maybe 4 schools at which they do EIP -- are going to be DOA because of their grades.

So, as seespotrun said, this is all random and unreliable speculation. It depends on the firm, it probably depends on the # of other callbacks, it depends on the structure, the size of the summer class, etc.


Clearly Susman.


If Susman, something similar happened to me--except the other candidate had better grades. I have reason to believe I interview very well compared to the other candidate, but the other candidate ended up getting the offer. I'm guessing grades still counted at the callback stage.

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dresden doll
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Re: Low Grades and a Callback

Postby dresden doll » Tue Aug 31, 2010 6:49 pm

Zugzwang wrote:
dresden doll wrote:In which case I'd imagine none of the college grads would be advantaged.

Nope. UPenn students are better than pretty much all other college students at case interviewing. And contrary to what you think, a firm would likely ask you a question similar to questions in your torts exam.


And assuming interviewers evaluate responses much like professors do, the outcome of such system would be identical to the outcome of the current system.

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Zugzwang
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Re: Low Grades and a Callback

Postby Zugzwang » Tue Aug 31, 2010 6:55 pm

dresden doll wrote:
Zugzwang wrote:
dresden doll wrote:In which case I'd imagine none of the college grads would be advantaged.

Nope. UPenn students are better than pretty much all other college students at case interviewing. And contrary to what you think, a firm would likely ask you a question similar to questions in your torts exam.

And assuming interviewers evaluate responses much like professors do, the outcome of such system would be identical to the outcome of the current system.

Nah. You'd start out with the problem, the interviewee then asks questions to get the necessary information to form a coherent response. Just because someone is good at writing an exam answer does not make that person good at solving problems.

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dresden doll
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Re: Low Grades and a Callback

Postby dresden doll » Tue Aug 31, 2010 6:56 pm

Zugzwang wrote:Nah. You'd start out with the problem, the interviewee then asks questions to get the necessary information to form a coherent response. Just because someone is good at writing an exam answer does not make that person good at solving problems.


I just can't imagine someone writing a good exam answer without offering at least one potential solution to the problem at hand.

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Zugzwang
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Re: Low Grades and a Callback

Postby Zugzwang » Tue Aug 31, 2010 6:59 pm

dresden doll wrote:
Zugzwang wrote:Nah. You'd start out with the problem, the interviewee then asks questions to get the necessary information to form a coherent response. Just because someone is good at writing an exam answer does not make that person good at solving problems.

I just can't imagine someone writing a good exam answer without offering at least one potential solution to the problem at hand.

The world is rife with people who are book smart but incapable of applying their knowledge to practical situations.

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Re: Low Grades and a Callback

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Sep 01, 2010 10:09 am

I am in the low grades and callback boat, but I am also IP.

I have done one callback so far before our school's OCI at a large IP boutique and got offered within about 10 days.

I have two more CBs coming up from OCI, one with another large IP boutique and another with a large GP firm with an admittedly large focus on IP. We'll see how it goes.....

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Re: Low Grades and a Callback

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Sep 01, 2010 10:13 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Which is all to say it's firm dependent.

I was one of four callbacks for a particular firm that typically "requires" top 10% or so and law review. There were two for the office which I was interested in (me and one other person), and 1 for each of their other two offices. The other callback for my office was neither top 10% nor law review. I am neither top 10% nor law review (probably top 1/3rd).

Unofficial callbacks were given on the spot (dinner invites, and then "we look forward to bringing you to our office to meet more of our attorneys.")

I highly doubt that the only two students from my school they'd CB -- which is one of maybe 4 schools at which they do EIP -- are going to be DOA because of their grades.

So, as seespotrun said, this is all random and unreliable speculation. It depends on the firm, it probably depends on the # of other callbacks, it depends on the structure, the size of the summer class, etc.


Clearly Susman.


If Susman, something similar happened to me--except the other candidate had better grades. I have reason to believe I interview very well compared to the other candidate, but the other candidate ended up getting the offer. I'm guessing grades still counted at the callback stage.



How much better were his/her grades?

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Re: Low Grades and a Callback

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Sep 15, 2010 1:32 pm

didn't want to start a new thread, so I thought I would ask in here. I had a cb a couple days back with a large firm. My grades are pretty bad (around median T30), so I was really surprised I got the chance. I think it went well. Specifically, I think I killed the interview I had with the hiring partner. I think my interview with 2 of other attorneys went okay-good.

My question is how much pull does the hiring partner have? At the end of the day can a great interview with a hiring partner overcome bad grades, and okay interviews with other attorneys at a CB, or is it a more objective approach?

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Blindmelon
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Re: Low Grades and a Callback

Postby Blindmelon » Wed Sep 15, 2010 1:46 pm

Anonymous User wrote:didn't want to start a new thread, so I thought I would ask in here. I had a cb a couple days back with a large firm. My grades are pretty bad (around median T30), so I was really surprised I got the chance. I think it went well. Specifically, I think I killed the interview I had with the hiring partner. I think my interview with 2 of other attorneys went okay-good.

My question is how much pull does the hiring partner have? At the end of the day can a great interview with a hiring partner overcome bad grades, and okay interviews with other attorneys at a CB, or is it a more objective approach?


My advice - don't speculate. Just relax, theres nothing you can do now. I'm around top 1/3rd (just below) at a T30 and I got an offer earlier this week from a great firm that ITE I didn't think I would get. I obsessed for a week about the interview (everything I said, etc.) but honestly theres nothing you can do. Move on, hope for a pleasant surprise.

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Kohinoor
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Re: Low Grades and a Callback

Postby Kohinoor » Wed Sep 15, 2010 1:49 pm

dresden doll wrote:
disco_barred wrote:If one guy on the recruiting committee is a stickler for grades you could be sunk before you check in with reception.


It seems wasteful to call people back in - particularly if they're being flown out from across the country - if someone on the hiring committee is a stickler for grades. Why not screen the candidate out to begin with instead of wasting resources?

It's a waste but an infinitesimal waste in the eyes of a firm. Compared to the cost of one SA, even dozens of callbacks pale in comparison.

PiersonVee
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Re: Low Grades and a Callback

Postby PiersonVee » Wed Sep 15, 2010 1:53 pm

Blindmelon wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:didn't want to start a new thread, so I thought I would ask in here. I had a cb a couple days back with a large firm. My grades are pretty bad (around median T30), so I was really surprised I got the chance. I think it went well. Specifically, I think I killed the interview I had with the hiring partner. I think my interview with 2 of other attorneys went okay-good.

My question is how much pull does the hiring partner have? At the end of the day can a great interview with a hiring partner overcome bad grades, and okay interviews with other attorneys at a CB, or is it a more objective approach?


My advice - don't speculate. Just relax, theres nothing you can do now. I'm around top 1/3rd (just below) at a T30 and I got an offer earlier this week from a great firm that ITE I didn't think I would get. I obsessed for a week about the interview (everything I said, etc.) but honestly theres nothing you can do. Move on, hope for a pleasant surprise.

Try not to stress out. It sounds like you did a great job at your CB. By receiving a CB, you already passed the "paper" test. If your impressions were correct, and you really did kill the interview with the hiring partner, then you will probably end up with an offer. Good luck.

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Kohinoor
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Re: Low Grades and a Callback

Postby Kohinoor » Wed Sep 15, 2010 1:54 pm

PiersonVee wrote:
Blindmelon wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:didn't want to start a new thread, so I thought I would ask in here. I had a cb a couple days back with a large firm. My grades are pretty bad (around median T30), so I was really surprised I got the chance. I think it went well. Specifically, I think I killed the interview I had with the hiring partner. I think my interview with 2 of other attorneys went okay-good.

My question is how much pull does the hiring partner have? At the end of the day can a great interview with a hiring partner overcome bad grades, and okay interviews with other attorneys at a CB, or is it a more objective approach?


My advice - don't speculate. Just relax, theres nothing you can do now. I'm around top 1/3rd (just below) at a T30 and I got an offer earlier this week from a great firm that ITE I didn't think I would get. I obsessed for a week about the interview (everything I said, etc.) but honestly theres nothing you can do. Move on, hope for a pleasant surprise.

Try not to stress out. It sounds like you did a great job at your CB. By receiving a CB, you already passed the "paper" test. If your impressions were correct, and you really did kill the interview with the hiring partner, then you will probably end up with an offer. Good luck.

cr. At the callback stage you've gone from a 10-25% chance to a >50% chance.

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Re: Low Grades and a Callback

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Sep 15, 2010 2:01 pm

Kohinoor wrote:
PiersonVee wrote:
Blindmelon wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:didn't want to start a new thread, so I thought I would ask in here. I had a cb a couple days back with a large firm. My grades are pretty bad (around median T30), so I was really surprised I got the chance. I think it went well. Specifically, I think I killed the interview I had with the hiring partner. I think my interview with 2 of other attorneys went okay-good.

My question is how much pull does the hiring partner have? At the end of the day can a great interview with a hiring partner overcome bad grades, and okay interviews with other attorneys at a CB, or is it a more objective approach?


My advice - don't speculate. Just relax, theres nothing you can do now. I'm around top 1/3rd (just below) at a T30 and I got an offer earlier this week from a great firm that ITE I didn't think I would get. I obsessed for a week about the interview (everything I said, etc.) but honestly theres nothing you can do. Move on, hope for a pleasant surprise.

Try not to stress out. It sounds like you did a great job at your CB. By receiving a CB, you already passed the "paper" test. If your impressions were correct, and you really did kill the interview with the hiring partner, then you will probably end up with an offer. Good luck.

cr. At the callback stage you've gone from a 10-25% chance to a >50% chance.


thanks for the reponses. trying my best not to stress, but this is probably my only shot at firm job so its hard. I do appreciate the input, thanks yall.

270910
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Re: Low Grades and a Callback

Postby 270910 » Wed Sep 15, 2010 2:16 pm

Kohinoor wrote:cr. At the callback stage you've gone from a 10-25% chance to a >50% chance.


That's pretty off-base, actually. Every firm has different ratios of callbacks to offers, but last year the average was more like 30-35% across all SAs (there's data on it out there, I can't recall where right now, an NALP publication I think). When you pull out the SulCroms of the world who make hundreds of offers with an 80-90% rate, a callback at a firm firm without a tremendously high average is looking more like a 20-30% chance at an offer these days.

Still, they like you and you should walk in assuming you can get the offer and seal the deal. But it's definitely not a >50% chance.

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Kohinoor
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Re: Low Grades and a Callback

Postby Kohinoor » Wed Sep 15, 2010 2:22 pm

disco_barred wrote:
Kohinoor wrote:cr. At the callback stage you've gone from a 10-25% chance to a >50% chance.


That's pretty off-base, actually. Every firm has different ratios of callbacks to offers, but last year the average was more like 30-35% across all SAs (there's data on it out there, I can't recall where right now, an NALP publication I think). When you pull out the SulCroms of the world who make hundreds of offers with an 80-90% rate, a callback at a firm firm without a tremendously high average is looking more like a 20-30% chance at an offer these days.

Still, they like you and you should walk in assuming you can get the offer and seal the deal. But it's definitely not a >50% chance.

disco_barred used Dream Eater!
It's super effective!

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Re: Low Grades and a Callback

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Sep 15, 2010 2:24 pm

I have low grades (below median). I got 4/5 offers for my CBs. Just PWN your interviews.

270910
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Re: Low Grades and a Callback

Postby 270910 » Wed Sep 15, 2010 2:26 pm

Kohinoor wrote:
disco_barred wrote:
Kohinoor wrote:cr. At the callback stage you've gone from a 10-25% chance to a >50% chance.


That's pretty off-base, actually. Every firm has different ratios of callbacks to offers, but last year the average was more like 30-35% across all SAs (there's data on it out there, I can't recall where right now, an NALP publication I think). When you pull out the SulCroms of the world who make hundreds of offers with an 80-90% rate, a callback at a firm firm without a tremendously high average is looking more like a 20-30% chance at an offer these days.

Still, they like you and you should walk in assuming you can get the offer and seal the deal. But it's definitely not a >50% chance.

disco_barred used Dream Eater!
It's super effective!


Believe me, I know.

*shakes fist at law school / legal economy / law students *

* curls into a corner and weeps violently *

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Re: Low Grades and a Callback

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Sep 15, 2010 2:27 pm

Just sell yourself and let your personality shine through, as well as research you've done on the firm. I have 15 callbacks, and I think my chances are pretty bad at getting an offer, just because of my personality type. It's much more important once you get past the screener.

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Re: Low Grades and a Callback

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Sep 15, 2010 2:28 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Just sell yourself and let your personality shine through, as well as research you've done on the firm. I have 15 callbacks, and I think my chances are pretty bad at getting an offer, just because of my personality type. It's much more important once you get past the screener.



What's your personality type?

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nealric
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Re: Low Grades and a Callback

Postby nealric » Wed Sep 15, 2010 2:37 pm

My question is how much pull does the hiring partner have?


Depends on the firm, but at many firms the buck stops at the hiring partner.

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Re: Low Grades and a Callback

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Sep 15, 2010 3:05 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Just sell yourself and let your personality shine through, as well as research you've done on the firm. I have 15 callbacks, and I think my chances are pretty bad at getting an offer, just because of my personality type. It's much more important once you get past the screener.



What's your personality type?



bad. introverted. nervous and it shows. I have a weird voice too that I'm unconfident about.




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