Firms that require clerkships - how do offers work?

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Anonymous User
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Firms that require clerkships - how do offers work?

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Aug 28, 2010 9:09 pm

Let's say Joe gets a summer position at a firm that requires full time hires to have completed a clerkship.

Joe's work over the summer meets the firm's standards for its summers.

Will the firm give him an offer to return conditioned upon his completion of a clerkship?

Or will the firm say "it was nice, we'll remember you, now go complete a clerkship and then reapply and we'll see"?

Might be a dumb question, but oh well...

Thanks guys.

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JazzOne
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Re: Firms that require clerkships - how do offers work?

Postby JazzOne » Sat Aug 28, 2010 9:11 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Let's say Joe gets a summer position at a firm that requires full time hires to have completed a clerkship.

Joe's work over the summer meets the firm's standards for its summers.

Will the firm give him an offer to return conditioned upon his completion of a clerkship?

Or will the firm say "it was nice, we'll remember you, now go complete a clerkship and then reapply and we'll see"?

Might be a dumb question, but oh well...

Thanks guys.

I asked this exact question at a Susman interview. I was told that students of the caliber to get a job offer will have no problem getting a clerkship. So the offers are made contingent upon the successful completion of a clerkship, but no one with an offer is ever denied an opportunity to clerk.

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Re: Firms that require clerkships - how do offers work?

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Aug 28, 2010 9:12 pm

JazzOne wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Let's say Joe gets a summer position at a firm that requires full time hires to have completed a clerkship.

Joe's work over the summer meets the firm's standards for its summers.

Will the firm give him an offer to return conditioned upon his completion of a clerkship?

Or will the firm say "it was nice, we'll remember you, now go complete a clerkship and then reapply and we'll see"?

Might be a dumb question, but oh well...

Thanks guys.

I asked this exact question at a Susman interview. I was told that students of the caliber to get a job offer will have no problem getting a clerkship. So the offers are made contingent upon the successful completion of a clerkship, but no one with an offer is ever denied an opportunity to clerk.


So the student who gets a summer offer at a firm such as Susman will be told "you can come back after you complete a clerkship"?

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JazzOne
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Re: Firms that require clerkships - how do offers work?

Postby JazzOne » Sat Aug 28, 2010 9:14 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
JazzOne wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Let's say Joe gets a summer position at a firm that requires full time hires to have completed a clerkship.

Joe's work over the summer meets the firm's standards for its summers.

Will the firm give him an offer to return conditioned upon his completion of a clerkship?

Or will the firm say "it was nice, we'll remember you, now go complete a clerkship and then reapply and we'll see"?

Might be a dumb question, but oh well...

Thanks guys.

I asked this exact question at a Susman interview. I was told that students of the caliber to get a job offer will have no problem getting a clerkship. So the offers are made contingent upon the successful completion of a clerkship, but no one with an offer is ever denied an opportunity to clerk.


So the student who gets a summer offer at a firm such as Susman will be told "you can come back after you complete a clerkship"?

Assuming that the student's summer work was satisfactory, yes. However, I also heard from an attorney that Susman was phasing out its summer program. They want to hire exclusively from the ranks of clerks going forward.

Renzo
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Re: Firms that require clerkships - how do offers work?

Postby Renzo » Sun Aug 29, 2010 9:04 pm

The majority of such firms don't have summer programs; if they do, they take only a small number of people with outstanding credentials (as said above, the caliber of student who is guaranteed to get a clerkship). These firms don't depend on a summer program for recruiting, instead they focus on recruiting 3L's who are headed into clerkships.

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Re: Firms that require clerkships - how do offers work?

Postby bradley » Sun Aug 29, 2010 10:48 pm

Renzo wrote:The majority of such firms don't have summer programs; if they do, they take only a small number of people with outstanding credentials (as said above, the caliber of student who is guaranteed to get a clerkship). These firms don't depend on a summer program for recruiting, instead they focus on recruiting 3L's who are headed into clerkships.


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Last edited by bradley on Mon Jan 24, 2011 8:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Firms that require clerkships - how do offers work?

Postby 270910 » Sun Aug 29, 2010 10:51 pm

bradley wrote:
Renzo wrote:The majority of such firms don't have summer programs; if they do, they take only a small number of people with outstanding credentials (as said above, the caliber of student who is guaranteed to get a clerkship). These firms don't depend on a summer program for recruiting, instead they focus on recruiting 3L's who are headed into clerkships.


Do you mean they hire 3L pre-clerks as summer associates? How can I find out what firms do this?


Look at their websites or ask?

Much more common is for firms to just conduct interviews and hire people as they come out of their clerkship. Most firms are open to that and will provide bonuses to the people they hire in that manner.

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Re: Firms that require clerkships - how do offers work?

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Aug 29, 2010 10:55 pm

The firms that require clerkships don't need to hire people who, on paper, are guaranteed clerkships, because, as one such firm told me, it's a two-way street: if you clerk, a firm that requires clerkships will take you. But if they take you before a clerkship, they have such connections (since everyone else has had a clerkship) that they can get you one (or, given the prestige of some of these firms, some judges will hire you knowing that you have such a quality job lined up for post-clerkship).

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Re: Firms that require clerkships - how do offers work?

Postby Renzo » Sun Aug 29, 2010 10:58 pm

bradley wrote:
Renzo wrote:The majority of such firms don't have summer programs; if they do, they take only a small number of people with outstanding credentials (as said above, the caliber of student who is guaranteed to get a clerkship). These firms don't depend on a summer program for recruiting, instead they focus on recruiting 3L's who are headed into clerkships.


Do you mean they hire 3L pre-clerks as summer associates? How can I find out what firms do this?
Personally, I'd start by googling, we're already talking about a very small handful of firms. But Susman & Bartlitt will get your list started.

Renzo
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Re: Firms that require clerkships - how do offers work?

Postby Renzo » Sun Aug 29, 2010 10:59 pm

Anonymous User wrote:The firms that require clerkships don't need to hire people who, on paper, are guaranteed clerkships, because, as one such firm told me, it's a two-way street: if you clerk, a firm that requires clerkships will take you. But if they take you before a clerkship, they have such connections (since everyone else has had a clerkship) that they can get you one (or, given the prestige of some of these firms, some judges will hire you knowing that you have such a quality job lined up for post-clerkship).

Utter nonsense. If I posted such crap, I'd do it anonymously also.

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Re: Firms that require clerkships - how do offers work?

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Aug 29, 2010 11:07 pm

Renzo wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:The firms that require clerkships don't need to hire people who, on paper, are guaranteed clerkships, because, as one such firm told me, it's a two-way street: if you clerk, a firm that requires clerkships will take you. But if they take you before a clerkship, they have such connections (since everyone else has had a clerkship) that they can get you one (or, given the prestige of some of these firms, some judges will hire you knowing that you have such a quality job lined up for post-clerkship).

Utter nonsense. If I posted such crap, I'd do it anonymously also.


Utter crap poster here:

The above is straight out of the horse's mouth (a partner at one such firm). The language was essentially "we require clerkships, but if you get an offer here and you want a clerkship, you're going to be able to get a clerkship. There are technically rules around clerkship timing and such, but lots of judges make up their minds before then."

Does this mean you're going to get a SCOTUS clerkship or a clerkship with the best judge in the country? No. But they don't all require that. If you don't think a firm that requires clerkships (see: likely very well-known, prestigious, and connected) can pull some strings with a judge in their market to heavily tip the scales in favor of one of their offerees, you're nuts.

Renzo
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Re: Firms that require clerkships - how do offers work?

Postby Renzo » Sun Aug 29, 2010 11:13 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Renzo wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:The firms that require clerkships don't need to hire people who, on paper, are guaranteed clerkships, because, as one such firm told me, it's a two-way street: if you clerk, a firm that requires clerkships will take you. But if they take you before a clerkship, they have such connections (since everyone else has had a clerkship) that they can get you one (or, given the prestige of some of these firms, some judges will hire you knowing that you have such a quality job lined up for post-clerkship).

Utter nonsense. If I posted such crap, I'd do it anonymously also.


Utter crap poster here:

The above is straight out of the horse's mouth (a partner at one such firm). The language was essentially "we require clerkships, but if you get an offer here and you want a clerkship, you're going to be able to get a clerkship. There are technically rules around clerkship timing and such, but lots of judges make up their minds before then."

Does this mean you're going to get a SCOTUS clerkship or a clerkship with the best judge in the country? No. But they don't all require that. If you don't think a firm that requires clerkships (see: likely very well-known, prestigious, and connected) can pull some strings with a judge in their market to heavily tip the scales in favor of one of their offerees, you're nuts.

What you didn't understand about what that partner was telling you was that if they give you an offer, you already have credentials that would get you a clerkship. They might use their network to get you hooked up with a judge, true. Basically, they are offering a very strong and personal recommendation to an already-qualifed clerkship candidate. This isn't some magical backdoor to the 2nd Circuit.

Anonymous User
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Re: Firms that require clerkships - how do offers work?

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Aug 29, 2010 11:19 pm

Renzo wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Renzo wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:The firms that require clerkships don't need to hire people who, on paper, are guaranteed clerkships, because, as one such firm told me, it's a two-way street: if you clerk, a firm that requires clerkships will take you. But if they take you before a clerkship, they have such connections (since everyone else has had a clerkship) that they can get you one (or, given the prestige of some of these firms, some judges will hire you knowing that you have such a quality job lined up for post-clerkship).

Utter nonsense. If I posted such crap, I'd do it anonymously also.


Utter crap poster here:

The above is straight out of the horse's mouth (a partner at one such firm). The language was essentially "we require clerkships, but if you get an offer here and you want a clerkship, you're going to be able to get a clerkship. There are technically rules around clerkship timing and such, but lots of judges make up their minds before then."

Does this mean you're going to get a SCOTUS clerkship or a clerkship with the best judge in the country? No. But they don't all require that. If you don't think a firm that requires clerkships (see: likely very well-known, prestigious, and connected) can pull some strings with a judge in their market to heavily tip the scales in favor of one of their offerees, you're nuts.

What you didn't understand about what that partner was telling you was that if they give you an offer, you already have credentials that would get you a clerkship. They might use their network to get you hooked up with a judge, true. Basically, they are offering a very strong and personal recommendation to an already-qualifed clerkship candidate. This isn't some magical backdoor to the 2nd Circuit.


I promise you the phrasing wasn't about the credentials you already have. Unfortunately, I didn't transcribe it.

But again, if you don't think that a boutique that requires clerkships can't make it significantly easier for someone to get a District Court clerkship right around where the firm practices, you're ignoring the reality of how things work.

It's no different than doing your own networking during the job hunt. You make a few friends who are friends with the people making the hiring decisions, and suddenly you find yourself on a "people whose applications we should watch for" list, and you have your foot in the door.

Renzo
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Re: Firms that require clerkships - how do offers work?

Postby Renzo » Sun Aug 29, 2010 11:34 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I promise you the phrasing wasn't about the credentials you already have. Unfortunately, I didn't transcribe it.

But again, if you don't think that a boutique that requires clerkships can't make it significantly easier for someone to get a District Court clerkship right around where the firm practices, you're ignoring the reality of how things work.

It's no different than doing your own networking during the job hunt. You make a few friends who are friends with the people making the hiring decisions, and suddenly you find yourself on a "people whose applications we should watch for" list, and you have your foot in the door.

I don't think we're talking about the same jobs. I don't think there are "boutique" firms in BFE, anywhere (although I'm open to being shown I'm wrong); and the firms that I'm aware of that actually, truly require clerkships are among the most selective there are.

Anonymous User
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Re: Firms that require clerkships - how do offers work?

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Aug 29, 2010 11:51 pm

Renzo wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I promise you the phrasing wasn't about the credentials you already have. Unfortunately, I didn't transcribe it.

But again, if you don't think that a boutique that requires clerkships can't make it significantly easier for someone to get a District Court clerkship right around where the firm practices, you're ignoring the reality of how things work.

It's no different than doing your own networking during the job hunt. You make a few friends who are friends with the people making the hiring decisions, and suddenly you find yourself on a "people whose applications we should watch for" list, and you have your foot in the door.

I don't think we're talking about the same jobs. I don't think there are "boutique" firms in BFE, anywhere (although I'm open to being shown I'm wrong); and the firms that I'm aware of that actually, truly require clerkships are among the most selective there are.



I'm not denying that, but I'm also saying that it's not a dealbreaker if someone doesn't have COA credentials. They just need to have, say, Northern District Court of Iowa credentials (even if the firm is somewhere with no connection to Iowa). From what I can tell, firms that require a clerkship for a full time offer don't require them to be the most prestigious.

So perhaps there is a bit of truth in both of our thoughts, but if Bob van Nest vouches for a clerkship applicant, that'll carry significant weight and quite possibly get that applicant the job (particularly if its in SF), even if that applicant may not have the credentials otherwise needed for the job.




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