Phone Ding

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Anonymous User
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Phone Ding

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Aug 25, 2010 3:54 pm

Email rejection from Jones Day in CA, and phone rejection from Orrick in SF. Thank you to the guy who unfortunately had to get the surprise of a phone rejection--seeing that post made me prepared for it. Still, wtf. I'm around a 3.1 as well but bid on just about all CA firms. I did a bunch of interviews and have had no success yet.

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Re: Phone Ding

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Aug 25, 2010 4:00 pm

I just had a worse experience. I got dinged 10 minutes into an OCI interview.

sperry
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Re: Phone Ding

Postby sperry » Wed Aug 25, 2010 4:01 pm

The idea of a phone ding seems about like getting a law school rejection in an enormous envelope. Just sort of tactless.

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Re: Phone Ding

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Aug 25, 2010 4:05 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I just had a worse experience. I got dinged 10 minutes into an OCI interview.

An actual rejection? I'm sure many of us had interviews where it was obvious we were getting rejected, but I've never heard of any one being told explicitly during the interview.

Anonymous User
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Re: Phone Ding

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Aug 25, 2010 4:08 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I just had a worse experience. I got dinged 10 minutes into an OCI interview.

An actual rejection? I'm sure many of us had interviews where it was obvious we were getting rejected, but I've never heard of any one being told explicitly during the interview.


Yes, an actual rejection. "We appreciate your interest in the firm, but..."

Pablo Ramirez
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Re: Phone Ding

Postby Pablo Ramirez » Wed Aug 25, 2010 4:14 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I just had a worse experience. I got dinged 10 minutes into an OCI interview.

An actual rejection? I'm sure many of us had interviews where it was obvious we were getting rejected, but I've never heard of any one being told explicitly during the interview.


Yes, an actual rejection. "We appreciate your interest in the firm, but..."


LOL!!!

It would've been even funnier if the guy just pulled out an actual rejection letter, read it aloud to you, signed it, and handed it over.

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TommyK
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Re: Phone Ding

Postby TommyK » Wed Aug 25, 2010 4:20 pm

sperry wrote:The idea of a phone ding seems about like getting a law school rejection in an enormous envelope. Just sort of tactless.


Just goes to show you that you'll never be able to please everybody. It is the general consensus in corporate recruiting that phone rejections are the most appropriate way to ding a candidate who has taken the time to interview with you. It's more personal and the majority of candidates prefer this over email.

While you see it as tactless, they probably see it as excellent candidate care and going the extra mile to thank a candidate for interest in their firm and add a personal touch to the final disposition of a candidate.

Personally, I couldn't care less the method of rejection; the company could email, call, send smoke signals, or carrier pidgeons. But I'm probably in the minority and able to separate myself emotionally from the recruitment processes.

ViIIager
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Re: Phone Ding

Postby ViIIager » Wed Aug 25, 2010 4:29 pm

Pablo Ramirez wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I just had a worse experience. I got dinged 10 minutes into an OCI interview.

An actual rejection? I'm sure many of us had interviews where it was obvious we were getting rejected, but I've never heard of any one being told explicitly during the interview.


Yes, an actual rejection. "We appreciate your interest in the firm, but..."


LOL!!!

It would've been even funnier if the guy just pulled out an actual rejection letter, read it aloud to you, signed it, and handed it over.


Next time I'm at a campus doing interviewing with my firm, I'm totally doing that. "To whom it may concern: We appreciate your interest, but we're too cool for you. Hope you enjoy working at Starbucks! Love, The Firm" too long? ;)

That said, I actually had the same thing happen to me coming out of undergrad. I was interviewing on campus with a well-known firm, and halfway through the interview, we both came to the conclusion that I wouldn't fit the position they were hiring for (I didn't want to travel; they wanted someone to travel full-time). It ended amicably and it was kind of nice not having to worry about the inevitable ding.

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IzziesGal
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Re: Phone Ding

Postby IzziesGal » Wed Aug 25, 2010 4:36 pm

Ahhhh the good old Orrick phone ding. I had one of those during my 1L summer OCIP experience. I literally ran out of class to answer the phone, seeing the San Fran area code. I was thrilled - I thought I had the job. And to make it worse, the partner started out by saying "I really enjoyed our conversation...." The consensus here at Boalt is that phone rejections are a VERY poor choice. Apparently, Orrick feels like this is a better way to let candidates down, hoping that they'd remember this and keep them in mind in the future. Oh, it's remembered, all right.

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straxen
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Re: Phone Ding

Postby straxen » Wed Aug 25, 2010 4:48 pm

TommyK wrote:
sperry wrote:The idea of a phone ding seems about like getting a law school rejection in an enormous envelope. Just sort of tactless.


Just goes to show you that you'll never be able to please everybody. It is the general consensus in corporate recruiting that phone rejections are the most appropriate way to ding a candidate who has taken the time to interview with you. It's more personal and the majority of candidates prefer this over email.

While you see it as tactless, they probably see it as excellent candidate care and going the extra mile to thank a candidate for interest in their firm and add a personal touch to the final disposition of a candidate.

Personally, I couldn't care less the method of rejection; the company could email, call, send smoke signals, or carrier pidgeons. But I'm probably in the minority and able to separate myself emotionally from the recruitment processes.


Just a 1L but had a phone ding with a CPA firm (major but not big 4) I interviewed with after college, and I have to say it seemed to me to be far from the best way to ding a candidate, and next to in-person probably the worst.

It's nice to say they're going the extra mile or whatever, but it always comes off as them taking pleasure in rejecting you. You get the call and generally expect good news, and then they come out with the rejection, and there's nothing more to say and it's just incredibly uncomfortable as you have to play nice. In my case, the woman went on to critique my interview performance as if she were doing me a massive favor, which was especially bad form.

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Re: Phone Ding

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Aug 25, 2010 4:50 pm

I have had the opposite too, a callback invitation that came in a small, thin envelope. In the mail. The REAL mail.

While definitely a LOT more welcome than the phone ding, it is still just as jarring. I almost threw it away without reading it completely. Read your mail kiddies.

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Bosque
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Re: Phone Ding

Postby Bosque » Wed Aug 25, 2010 4:54 pm

straxen wrote:In my case, the woman went on to critique my interview performance as if she were doing me a massive favor, which was especially bad form.


True, it might be bad form. But I know I would LOVE it if firms who rejected me told me exactly why and critiqued my performance. This black box craziness is not good for my sanity. But I guess that is just my personality, I can see why other people really wouldn't care to hear it.

Any other INTPs out there? :mrgreen:

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straxen
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Re: Phone Ding

Postby straxen » Wed Aug 25, 2010 5:11 pm

Bosque wrote:
straxen wrote:In my case, the woman went on to critique my interview performance as if she were doing me a massive favor, which was especially bad form.


True, it might be bad form. But I know I would LOVE it if firms who rejected me told me exactly why and critiqued my performance. This black box craziness is not good for my sanity. But I guess that is just my personality, I can see why other people really wouldn't care to hear it.

Any other INTPs out there? :mrgreen:


I'd appreciate it too if (i) the woman weren't on the phone with me and (ii) not giving me a total BS reason for the ding (some question was about teamwork and she said I shouldn't have used the word "we", and that was the basis of her rejection). And yes INTP here :P

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TommyK
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Re: Phone Ding

Postby TommyK » Wed Aug 25, 2010 6:42 pm

straxen wrote:
Bosque wrote:
straxen wrote:In my case, the woman went on to critique my interview performance as if she were doing me a massive favor, which was especially bad form.


True, it might be bad form. But I know I would LOVE it if firms who rejected me told me exactly why and critiqued my performance. This black box craziness is not good for my sanity. But I guess that is just my personality, I can see why other people really wouldn't care to hear it.

Any other INTPs out there? :mrgreen:


I'd appreciate it too if (i) the woman weren't on the phone with me and (ii) not giving me a total BS reason for the ding (some question was about teamwork and she said I shouldn't have used the word "we", and that was the basis of her rejection). And yes INTP here :P


That actually was a huge favor. Most companies I've recruited for don't allow us to offer specific reasons on why we chose another candidate. Giving feedback on what could make you competitive is incredibly important.

From what she said, it sounds like you were asked a behavioral question and you spoke too much in the plural first person. When people do this, it's often because they have trouble parsing out exactly what they did, and what the group did. Inability show your specific role in a group task often speaks to the value you contributed to your team.

I understand what you're saying. It's never easy to get criticism, but this really is the only way you're going to learn. If I were the recruiter/hiring manager, I would have waited for a candidate to ask me for feedback before I offered it, but she really wasn't trying to offend you; she was trying to help you become a better candidate so you wouldn't fuck it up next time.

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Re: Phone Ding

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Aug 25, 2010 7:16 pm

IzziesGal wrote:Ahhhh the good old Orrick phone ding. I had one of those during my 1L summer OCIP experience. I literally ran out of class to answer the phone, seeing the San Fran area code. I was thrilled - I thought I had the job. And to make it worse, the partner started out by saying "I really enjoyed our conversation...." The consensus here at Boalt is that phone rejections are a VERY poor choice. Apparently, Orrick feels like this is a better way to let candidates down, hoping that they'd remember this and keep them in mind in the future. Oh, it's remembered, all right.


Those of us at Northwestern who have experienced it agree.

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dresden doll
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Re: Phone Ding

Postby dresden doll » Wed Aug 25, 2010 7:48 pm

TommyK wrote:
sperry wrote:The idea of a phone ding seems about like getting a law school rejection in an enormous envelope. Just sort of tactless.


Just goes to show you that you'll never be able to please everybody. It is the general consensus in corporate recruiting that phone rejections are the most appropriate way to ding a candidate who has taken the time to interview with you. It's more personal and the majority of candidates prefer this over email.

While you see it as tactless, they probably see it as excellent candidate care and going the extra mile to thank a candidate for interest in their firm and add a personal touch to the final disposition of a candidate.

Personally, I couldn't care less the method of rejection; the company could email, call, send smoke signals, or carrier pidgeons. But I'm probably in the minority and able to separate myself emotionally from the recruitment processes.


What consensus do you speak of? The only consensus I see around these parts is that it isn't a great idea.

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TommyK
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Re: Phone Ding

Postby TommyK » Wed Aug 25, 2010 7:57 pm

dresden doll wrote:
TommyK wrote:
sperry wrote:The idea of a phone ding seems about like getting a law school rejection in an enormous envelope. Just sort of tactless.


Just goes to show you that you'll never be able to please everybody. It is the general consensus in corporate recruiting that phone rejections are the most appropriate way to ding a candidate who has taken the time to interview with you. It's more personal and the majority of candidates prefer this over email.

While you see it as tactless, they probably see it as excellent candidate care and going the extra mile to thank a candidate for interest in their firm and add a personal touch to the final disposition of a candidate.

Personally, I couldn't care less the method of rejection; the company could email, call, send smoke signals, or carrier pidgeons. But I'm probably in the minority and able to separate myself emotionally from the recruitment processes.


What consensus do you speak of? The only consensus I see around these parts is that it isn't a great idea.


The consensus among corporate recruiters, recruiting departments, HR generalists - those involved in making protocols of disengaging candidates from the recruitment process.

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dresden doll
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Re: Phone Ding

Postby dresden doll » Wed Aug 25, 2010 8:00 pm

TommyK wrote:The consensus among corporate recruiters, recruiting departments, HR generalists - those involved in making protocols of disengaging candidates from the recruitment process.


Yes, but the true measure of the accuracy of their opinion are actual candidates' feelings. It doesn't look like they are doing it right.

Anonymous User
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Re: Phone Ding

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Aug 25, 2010 8:08 pm

I got one of the infamous Orrick dings. (Is anyone else doing it?)

The reason it sucks is specific to how OCI works. You know you're getting your callbacks by phone, and the vast majority of rejections do not come over the phone. If you're interviewing with a non-local market, then you are also attuned to callbacks coming when a number from that market shows up on your phone. So, yes, it is incredibly deflating, especially because it is so non-standard. These facts should be obvious to anyone who is going through or has gone through OCI.

Also, the interviewer sounded super bummed over the phone -- why they would want to call is beyond me.

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TommyK
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Re: Phone Ding

Postby TommyK » Wed Aug 25, 2010 8:16 pm

dresden doll wrote:
TommyK wrote:The consensus among corporate recruiters, recruiting departments, HR generalists - those involved in making protocols of disengaging candidates from the recruitment process.


Yes, but the true measure of the accuracy of their opinion are actual candidates' feelings. It doesn't look like they are doing it right.


I wasn't saying that the general consensus is well-founded. Not saying it's not, either. Honestly, I'm agnostic to the method of dinging somebody. Out of convenience, I'd rather send a form email because it takes me less time. I understand, though, throughout a lengthy recruitment process a candidate builds relationships with the recruiters and hiring managers and to end it coldly through an email may make the previous encounters seem incredibly disingenuous. And if a candidate is willing to dedicate hours and hours to interview with a company, the candidate sometimes feels owed the call.

It very well may be a generational thing, too. I've noticed from my recruiting experience that younger candidates don't really care, but older candidates tend to appreciate the personal touch of a call. (and before everybody jumps in and says, "But TommyK! I'm 40 yrs old and I hate it" - I realize there may be people over 30 here, but as a whole, I imagine the population is skewed to younger folks.)

My main point is that some people really value a phone call to ding them. Others prefer email. Still others couldn't care less. You'll never be able to satisfy everybody and as long as the company closes the loop with a candidate, I think professional courtesy is taken care of and candidates need to grow a little bit thicker skin.

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TommyK
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Re: Phone Ding

Postby TommyK » Wed Aug 25, 2010 8:19 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Also, the interviewer sounded super bummed over the phone -- why they would want to call is beyond me.


Ugh, I know it. I did a recruitment project for a company doing an expansion. They hired about 120 folks and I had phone decline the 240 other candidates that came in for an interview. After the two days it took me to talk to everybody, I drank myself into a stupor. It's exhausting crushing dreams all day.

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straxen
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Re: Phone Ding

Postby straxen » Wed Aug 25, 2010 8:24 pm

TommyK wrote:I think professional courtesy is taken care of and candidates need to grow a little bit thicker skin.


It's not that. It's not that the phone ding makes you feel embarrassed, insulted, etc. It's just a very WTF? moment and does not serve the intended purpose.

I think that phone calls are appropriate for experienced hires, where the recruiting process is less formalized, but inappropriate when hiring directly out of school.

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TommyK
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Re: Phone Ding

Postby TommyK » Wed Aug 25, 2010 8:32 pm

straxen wrote:
TommyK wrote:I think professional courtesy is taken care of and candidates need to grow a little bit thicker skin.


It's not that. It's not that the phone ding makes you feel embarrassed, insulted, etc. It's just a very WTF? moment and does not serve the intended purpose.

I think that phone calls are appropriate for experienced hires, where the recruiting process is less formalized, but inappropriate when hiring directly out of school.


I get ya' - so it's that angst of the 2 seconds between when the phone starts ringing and when you run out of class to answer it, only to have your hopes destroyed that's a problem to you.

I think the intended purpose of a phone call is to let the candidate know that their time was valued, and they were more than just a resume and a warm body. In my mind, then, I think a phone call does serve the intended purpose. It just seems to have a bit of a negative externality here, too.

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Re: Phone Ding

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Aug 25, 2010 9:32 pm

Pablo Ramirez wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I just had a worse experience. I got dinged 10 minutes into an OCI interview.

An actual rejection? I'm sure many of us had interviews where it was obvious we were getting rejected, but I've never heard of any one being told explicitly during the interview.


Yes, an actual rejection. "We appreciate your interest in the firm, but..."


LOL!!!

It would've been even funnier if the guy just pulled out an actual rejection letter, read it aloud to you, signed it, and handed it over.


It was hilarious. I honestly got a kick out of it. The thing is: he did it on accident. It came to a point in the conversation where I was talking about them calling references, and I think subconsciously he didn't even want to act like I had a chance and he said, "Thanks for your interest in the firm..." and I could see it in his eyes that he let those words slip. But then he just continued. I made a little more small talk (because I liked the guy) and walked out.

bradley
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Re: Phone Ding

Postby bradley » Wed Aug 25, 2010 9:33 pm

I would rather have a phone call, BUT I would like the firm to let me know beforehand how we will hear. Otherwise, I'm just checking the mail everyday with a sinking feeling every time I open the mailbox. If I know a call is coming, I don't have to fear opening the mail AND I can manage my expectations when I hear the phone ring.




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