Offer accepted, the TTT gamble pays off Forum
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Offer accepted, the TTT gamble pays off
Two-plus years ago I took an LSAT that would have gotten me into Top 25 schools, although probably not the bottom of the t14, and accepted a full ride at a very local TTT. It's a decision that I knew was risky at the time and second-guessed numerous times. Did well enough 1L year to probably have a shot at a t14 transfer, but - again - just couldn't see myself taking on six figures of debt.
Had a good recruiting season last summer and ended up with multiple offers from firms that didn't recruit at my school, all paying six figures, although not V100 types. Spent the summer with a firm in a major city, loved the people and the work, and was fortunate enough to get called with an offer this morning. Immediately accepted. I expect to graduate next spring with under $10k in debt (but having exhausted almost all my savings, which was about 30k going into law school).
This post isn't to say doing it my way is a good idea. There are a ton more people at my school struggling right now than succeeding, even very talented people. Obviously, a top 25 school is a much safer play.
But I also wanted to share the story for those folks who are considering the same route, so they know it does happen from time to time. I know other students at my school, 3Ls, who pulled it off last year. My strongest advice if you're considering it is to realize that you're (obviously) going to have to be near the top of your class, top 15 percent or higher, and be really aggressive with selling yourself outside of the traditional OCI format. "Really aggressive" means more than 100 mailings, a lot of networking through friends and social networking and linkedin, and starting your summer job push in mid-July, not August.
Had a good recruiting season last summer and ended up with multiple offers from firms that didn't recruit at my school, all paying six figures, although not V100 types. Spent the summer with a firm in a major city, loved the people and the work, and was fortunate enough to get called with an offer this morning. Immediately accepted. I expect to graduate next spring with under $10k in debt (but having exhausted almost all my savings, which was about 30k going into law school).
This post isn't to say doing it my way is a good idea. There are a ton more people at my school struggling right now than succeeding, even very talented people. Obviously, a top 25 school is a much safer play.
But I also wanted to share the story for those folks who are considering the same route, so they know it does happen from time to time. I know other students at my school, 3Ls, who pulled it off last year. My strongest advice if you're considering it is to realize that you're (obviously) going to have to be near the top of your class, top 15 percent or higher, and be really aggressive with selling yourself outside of the traditional OCI format. "Really aggressive" means more than 100 mailings, a lot of networking through friends and social networking and linkedin, and starting your summer job push in mid-July, not August.
Last edited by Anonymous User on Thu Aug 19, 2010 10:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
- dresden doll
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Re: Offer accepted, the TTT gamble pays off
Good for you. Congrats!
- traehekat
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Re: Offer accepted, the TTT gamble pays off
livin' the DREAM.
congrats!
congrats!
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Re: Offer accepted, the TTT gamble pays off
congrats!!!
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Re: Offer accepted, the TTT gamble pays off
Congrats but remember that most of your classmates are not as fortunate to have won the gamble
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Re: Offer accepted, the TTT gamble pays off
thats what he just said...legends159 wrote:Congrats but remember that most of your classmates are not as fortunate to have won the gamble
"There are a ton more people at my school struggling right now than succeeding, even very talented people"
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Re: Offer accepted, the TTT gamble pays off
You won the lottery. Goto a low ranking school and you will likely find 80-90% of the graduates are making less than $50,000/year.
The real question that I would have for you is whether you will win the next lottery (partner or asked to leave)... that is where you may find that getting your degree without debt is working against you. Unless you perform way beyond the level of your rivals you could fall victim of the snob effect that often comes into play. Partners aren't given to the associates that perform best, their are also things considered such as the network of future clients you bring. If I have two equal associates, one from a lower level school and one from a top school who do I think will be more likely to bring in clients? I would have to go with the one from a top school because he would be more likely to have the country club connections that will generate clients and revenue.
I'm not saying it is fair, but that is the reality of firms and how they operate. I've also seen associates that were better at their job than another associate passed over because they weren't from the right background... so make the best of where you are but don't be surprised if your decision still comes back to smack you on the head 7 years down the road.
The real question that I would have for you is whether you will win the next lottery (partner or asked to leave)... that is where you may find that getting your degree without debt is working against you. Unless you perform way beyond the level of your rivals you could fall victim of the snob effect that often comes into play. Partners aren't given to the associates that perform best, their are also things considered such as the network of future clients you bring. If I have two equal associates, one from a lower level school and one from a top school who do I think will be more likely to bring in clients? I would have to go with the one from a top school because he would be more likely to have the country club connections that will generate clients and revenue.
I'm not saying it is fair, but that is the reality of firms and how they operate. I've also seen associates that were better at their job than another associate passed over because they weren't from the right background... so make the best of where you are but don't be surprised if your decision still comes back to smack you on the head 7 years down the road.
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Re: Offer accepted, the TTT gamble pays off
OP here. The lottery comparison is too negative IMO. The odds are high, but not as high as the lottery, and they're odds that you can lower if you're willing to do certain things. As I stated above, it's clearly a much riskier route than going T25 (but not much riskier in the current environment than some schools ranked 25-50 and most ranked 50-100).
The partnership issue doesn't concern me much. The firm has partners from a variety of schools, including my own TTT.
The partnership issue doesn't concern me much. The firm has partners from a variety of schools, including my own TTT.
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Re: Offer accepted, the TTT gamble pays off
In general, how are your classmates doing job-wise?Anonymous User wrote:OP here. The lottery comparison is too negative IMO. The odds are high, but not as high as the lottery, and they're odds that you can lower if you're willing to do certain things. As I stated above, it's clearly a much riskier route than going T25 (but not much riskier in the current environment than some schools ranked 25-50 and most ranked 50-100).
The partnership issue doesn't concern me much. The firm has partners from a variety of schools, including my own TTT.
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Re: Offer accepted, the TTT gamble pays off
Are you an attorney or even someone who works at a large firm? I am not saying that your vantage is necessarily wrong, but "where you went to school" is a quality that is neither necessary nor sufficient in becoming a rainmaker. Also remember that a lot of third to fifth year associates at big firms have comfortable exit options that don't force them to shove their credentials down potential clients throats. fwiw.Pip wrote:You won the lottery. Goto a low ranking school and you will likely find 80-90% of the graduates are making less than $50,000/year.
The real question that I would have for you is whether you will win the next lottery (partner or asked to leave)... that is where you may find that getting your degree without debt is working against you. Unless you perform way beyond the level of your rivals you could fall victim of the snob effect that often comes into play. Partners aren't given to the associates that perform best, their are also things considered such as the network of future clients you bring. If I have two equal associates, one from a lower level school and one from a top school who do I think will be more likely to bring in clients? I would have to go with the one from a top school because he would be more likely to have the country club connections that will generate clients and revenue.
I'm not saying it is fair, but that is the reality of firms and how they operate. I've also seen associates that were better at their job than another associate passed over because they weren't from the right background... so make the best of where you are but don't be surprised if your decision still comes back to smack you on the head 7 years down the road.
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Re: Offer accepted, the TTT gamble pays off
In general my classmates are struggling. No way to sugarcoat it. I have friends at t14 schools who don't have a job, but not having a job is the exception there, where as at my school it's the norm.
Again, I don't want to suggest this is a smart way to do things or that it's not risky. Just that it's possible.
Again, I don't want to suggest this is a smart way to do things or that it's not risky. Just that it's possible.
Last edited by Anonymous User on Thu Aug 19, 2010 12:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Offer accepted, the TTT gamble pays off
should be T14, not T25. i am near the top of my class at a T25 with 0 callbacks. i do have a 2/3 scholarship but regret not trying to transfer up. the difference in job prospects would have been worth the money for me.Anonymous User wrote:it's clearly a much riskier route than going T25 (but not much riskier in the current environment than some schools ranked 25-50 and most ranked 50-100).
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Re: Offer accepted, the TTT gamble pays off
Market?Anonymous User wrote:should be T14, not T25. i am near the top of my class at a T25 with 0 callbacks. i do have a 2/3 scholarship but regret not trying to transfer up. the difference in job prospects would have been worth the money for me.Anonymous User wrote:it's clearly a much riskier route than going T25 (but not much riskier in the current environment than some schools ranked 25-50 and most ranked 50-100).
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- dresden doll
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Re: Offer accepted, the TTT gamble pays off
Would like to know this as well. Also, school since it's an anon post.Anonymous User wrote:Market?Anonymous User wrote:should be T14, not T25. i am near the top of my class at a T25 with 0 callbacks. i do have a 2/3 scholarship but regret not trying to transfer up. the difference in job prospects would have been worth the money for me.Anonymous User wrote:it's clearly a much riskier route than going T25 (but not much riskier in the current environment than some schools ranked 25-50 and most ranked 50-100).
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Re: Offer accepted, the TTT gamble pays off
Also interested. It seems that most top 1/3 people at T25s are at least getting callbacks from what I've seen in other threads.dresden doll wrote:Would like to know this as well. Also, school since it's an anon post.Anonymous User wrote:Market?Anonymous User wrote:should be T14, not T25. i am near the top of my class at a T25 with 0 callbacks. i do have a 2/3 scholarship but regret not trying to transfer up. the difference in job prospects would have been worth the money for me.Anonymous User wrote:it's clearly a much riskier route than going T25 (but not much riskier in the current environment than some schools ranked 25-50 and most ranked 50-100).
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Re: Offer accepted, the TTT gamble pays off
You're not a URM going to Howard are you?
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Re: Offer accepted, the TTT gamble pays off
I was an attorney until I realized it was more enjoyable working in a company... but I still stay in contact with law school classmates so know not only from first hand experience but from the experience of classmates how the partnership track works across a wide swath of firms... And for the record I never said being from a particular school was a requirement for being a rainmaker, I simply said that many of the partners in law firms that are going to pick the associates to be partners will care... that THEY will believe there is some added pull from a lawyer from an A level school versus a C or D level school.... and I'm not sure how you define a comfortable exist strategy... but when an associate has toiled long hours for 5 years to become a partner where they will work less and make more there really isn't any exist strategy that can make up for that.mistergoft wrote:Are you an attorney or even someone who works at a large firm? I am not saying that your vantage is necessarily wrong, but "where you went to school" is a quality that is neither necessary nor sufficient in becoming a rainmaker. Also remember that a lot of third to fifth year associates at big firms have comfortable exit options that don't force them to shove their credentials down potential clients throats. fwiw.Pip wrote:You won the lottery. Goto a low ranking school and you will likely find 80-90% of the graduates are making less than $50,000/year.
The real question that I would have for you is whether you will win the next lottery (partner or asked to leave)... that is where you may find that getting your degree without debt is working against you. Unless you perform way beyond the level of your rivals you could fall victim of the snob effect that often comes into play. Partners aren't given to the associates that perform best, their are also things considered such as the network of future clients you bring. If I have two equal associates, one from a lower level school and one from a top school who do I think will be more likely to bring in clients? I would have to go with the one from a top school because he would be more likely to have the country club connections that will generate clients and revenue.
I'm not saying it is fair, but that is the reality of firms and how they operate. I've also seen associates that were better at their job than another associate passed over because they weren't from the right background... so make the best of where you are but don't be surprised if your decision still comes back to smack you on the head 7 years down the road.
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Re: Offer accepted, the TTT gamble pays off
@OP: I think most people agree with you that it is possible, nobody really debates that. However, would you recommend this to most people?
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Re: Offer accepted, the TTT gamble pays off
OP again. Nope, average white male at very average T3.hithere wrote:You're not a URM going to Howard are you?
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Re: Offer accepted, the TTT gamble pays off
atlanta and nyc; emory. maybe the lesson is just not to go to emory because it is actually a TTT.dresden doll wrote:Would like to know this as well. Also, school since it's an anon post.Anonymous User wrote:Market?Anonymous User wrote:should be T14, not T25. i am near the top of my class at a T25 with 0 callbacks. i do have a 2/3 scholarship but regret not trying to transfer up. the difference in job prospects would have been worth the money for me.Anonymous User wrote:it's clearly a much riskier route than going T25 (but not much riskier in the current environment than some schools ranked 25-50 and most ranked 50-100).
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Re: Offer accepted, the TTT gamble pays off
Had a feeling it was Emory, since I've heard a bunch of success stories coming out of OCI from GW and BU thus far.Anonymous User wrote:should be T14, not T25. i am near the top of my class at a T25 with 0 callbacks. i do have a 2/3 scholarship but regret not trying to transfer up. the difference in job prospects would have been worth the money for me.Anonymous User wrote:it's clearly a much riskier route than going T25 (but not much riskier in the current environment than some schools ranked 25-50 and most ranked 50-100).
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Re: Offer accepted, the TTT gamble pays off
As to whether I'd recommend this route ... in general, no. I hope that's clear from my original post. I second-guessed the decision multiple times, almost transferred and - in the end - certainly feel fortunate to end up where I'll be working.bk187 wrote:@OP: I think most people agree with you that it is possible, nobody really debates that. However, would you recommend this to most people?
But I also think taking on 100k-plus in student loans is very risky, and in some ways has a greater downside. No job with TTT full ride? Well, you're screwed, but you're not as screwed as the guy with no job and 100k or more in loans. It's a question of which risk you want to take, really.
Taking out that kind of debt load for a t14 education is understandable.
Taking it out for a school ranked from 20 to 50 is where the discussion gets more complicated. I can't say one route is right or wrong, that's a highly personal decision and the advice might vary with the school. If you want an East Coast firm job, George Washington, for instance, is probably a much safer bet than Georgia or Minnesota, and perhaps very much worth the debt risk.
If you were choosing between a full ride to TTT Michigan State and full tuition at Ohio State, and you want to work in the Midwest then it's a tougher call. There's really not that much difference between their OCI numbers.
- dresden doll
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Re: Offer accepted, the TTT gamble pays off
Christ. What is Emory OCS doing, anyway? They should all be fired. I don't believe that ATL market isn't large enough to absorb the very top of Emory's class, particularly when peer schools seem to be doing much better (see: GW).Anonymous User wrote: atlanta and nyc; emory. maybe the lesson is just not to go to emory because it is actually a TTT.
My sympathy goes out to you. Good luck with further job search.
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Re: Offer accepted, the TTT gamble pays off
sitting with their thumbs up their asses and passing out donuts. thanks for the good wishes, but it looks pretty hopeless. i've been sending out cover letters but i don't even anticipate a response when firms see i attend a TTT. i want to drop out of LR - fat lot of good it's doing me right now.dresden doll wrote:Christ. What is Emory OCS doing, anyway? They should all be fired. I don't believe that ATL market isn't large enough to absorb the very top of Emory's class, particularly when peer schools seem to be doing much better (see: GW).Anonymous User wrote: atlanta and nyc; emory. maybe the lesson is just not to go to emory because it is actually a TTT.
My sympathy goes out to you. Good luck with further job search.
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Re: Offer accepted, the TTT gamble pays off
Congrats dude, you earned it.
Seriously? What are you waiting for?
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