1L Summer

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sundevil77
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Re: 1L Summer

Postby sundevil77 » Thu Aug 05, 2010 3:57 pm

rbgrocio wrote:
Renzo wrote:
rbgrocio wrote:
Bosque wrote:First of all, if you work at a firm, they have to pay you. It is an ethics thing.

Second, the poster above me is right. Pretty much any job you have 1L summer is not going to care if you leave a little early, but they will care if you show up late. Or not so much care, but it will be harder to find work. If you schedule your wedding/honeymoon for the end of the summer, you should be ok.

However, that said, it might be a bad idea for other reasons. The end of the summer 1L year is when you should be hard at work trying to get a job for 2L summer. So you might have to spend some of your honeymoon writing cover letters and emails to firms. Up to you if you want to do that, or lose two weeks in the application cycle.



That's not true! Many, if not a lot of firms, don't pay 1Ls... I had about 10 different places where I could work this summer and 8 were unpaid.

You're both right. Unpaid interns at private, for-profit businesses are extremely common, and illegal.


I don't see how it is illegal. Where did you guys get that from... I wanna know!


It's actually not illegal. They can not pay you if the primary purpose of the internship is a tangible educational benefit. If the primary purpose becomes work product, even if there is still an educational benefit, then it becomes illegal.

IMO, no unpaid internship should be illegal. You have two willing participants (student and employer) that are ready to engage in mutually beneficial exchange. Who are we to prohibit that from taking place? If we force the employer to pay students, then some of them might cancel internships altogether, in which case students would be deprived of an essential learning experience.

/rant

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Veyron
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Re: 1L Summer

Postby Veyron » Thu Aug 05, 2010 4:06 pm

Bosque wrote:First of all, if you work at a firm, they have to pay you. It is an ethics thing.


Could you please elaborate on this. What size must a firm be to be required to pay you, what obligates them, and what are the consequences if they don't?

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Bosque
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Re: 1L Summer

Postby Bosque » Thu Aug 05, 2010 4:08 pm

sundevil77 wrote:IMO, no unpaid internship should be illegal. You have two willing participants (student and employer) that are ready to engage in mutually beneficial exchange. Who are we to prohibit that from taking place? If we force the employer to pay students, then some of them might cancel internships altogether, in which case students would be deprived of an essential learning experience.

/rant


Because you DON'T have two willing participants. There is a big seperation in bargaining power here.

ruski
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Re: 1L Summer

Postby ruski » Thu Aug 05, 2010 4:08 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
ruski wrote:if anything i would think the single male would have the upper hand. who would a partner rather want, a young amibtious lawyer who is money-hungry and eager to please and climb the ranks, or the married guy who is always rushing home to have dinner with this wife/kids.
the single guy would have nothing tying him down to the city, the firm, or even the industry. most likely his only responsibility will be a few years to pay off his loans...then he has a lot of options. consider, on the other hand, a family man. he's got school debt, a mortgage, college tuition to save for, mouths to feed. yeah, he might want to miss a few weekend meetings, but he's going to be under a lot more pressure to keep his job in the long term. that sounds like a more stable and dedicated employee to me.


partners don't necessarily want everyone there for the long term. its an up or out model, and many firms are designed to just work everyone like dogs for 4-5 years and then let them go, with a few exceptions for those who make partner. i still think the single male is the more attractive candidate, all things equal.

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Veyron
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Re: 1L Summer

Postby Veyron » Thu Aug 05, 2010 4:10 pm

Total Litigator wrote:
Aqualibrium wrote:
Yes you are wrong. No one cares that you are "settling down into marriage." Now if your fiancé/wife was from some xenophobic secondary market it would probably be worth mentioning. However, generally, it is unlikely that anyone will think you're more mature or safe because you are a guy that's getting married.


I disagree, if I was an employer worried about retention, and I had to choose between an ambitious single law student and a law student with a wife or a family, I would think that a law student with a wife/family would be less likely to move away after settling in, and I would give them a small plus. Of course this is the exact opposite for jobs where a lot of travel/moving is required.


Now this IS illegal.

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sundevil77
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Re: 1L Summer

Postby sundevil77 » Thu Aug 05, 2010 4:13 pm

Bosque wrote:
sundevil77 wrote:IMO, no unpaid internship should be illegal. You have two willing participants (student and employer) that are ready to engage in mutually beneficial exchange. Who are we to prohibit that from taking place? If we force the employer to pay students, then some of them might cancel internships altogether, in which case students would be deprived of an essential learning experience.

/rant


Because you DON'T have two willing participants. There is a big seperation in bargaining power here.


Actually you do, my friend. To the extent that there are not enough paying 1L summer jobs, there are students (not saying you are one of them) that are willing to do free work just so they can get the experience. By the same token, there are firms that would certainly take a 1L for the summer, but are unable to pay. By prohibiting a mutually beneficial transaction, you are doing both of them a disservice. I did an unpaid internship before and it has been extremely beneficial all throughout college. YOU or I might not want to do an unpaid 1L summer job, but that doesn't mean there aren't others willing to do just that. Like I said before... Who are we to prohibit this from occurring? Are you really saying that you know better than the student what is good for him or her?

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sundevil77
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Re: 1L Summer

Postby sundevil77 » Thu Aug 05, 2010 4:14 pm

.

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Bosque
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Re: 1L Summer

Postby Bosque » Thu Aug 05, 2010 4:14 pm

Veyron wrote:
Bosque wrote:First of all, if you work at a firm, they have to pay you. It is an ethics thing.


Could you please elaborate on this. What size must a firm be to be required to pay you, what obligates them, and what are the consequences if they don't?


It is not a size thing. As the previous poster said, it is a question of what you are doing for them. If you are getting class credit and are primarily observing the practicing attornies in court, depositions, client visits, settlement conferences, ect., then they can get away without paying you. However, if you are reasearching and writing memos for the firm, they need to be paying you. Basically, take away the fact that you are there only for the summer. Does what you are doing look like a real job? If so, you need to be getting paid.

As to the consequences, I am not sure. I haven't really looked into it, because I don't work for free (For a firm anyway. Government intern, non profit, or Judicial clerk, I am fine with working for free for... for the summer). I would imagine the BAR would not be too happy to learn of the practice.

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romothesavior
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Re: 1L Summer

Postby romothesavior » Thu Aug 05, 2010 4:18 pm

sundevil77 wrote:
Bosque wrote:
sundevil77 wrote:IMO, no unpaid internship should be illegal. You have two willing participants (student and employer) that are ready to engage in mutually beneficial exchange. Who are we to prohibit that from taking place? If we force the employer to pay students, then some of them might cancel internships altogether, in which case students would be deprived of an essential learning experience.

/rant


Because you DON'T have two willing participants. There is a big seperation in bargaining power here.


Actually you do, my friend. To the extent that there are not enough paying 1L summer jobs, there are students (not saying you are one of them) that are willing to do free work just so they can get the experience.


You just essentially conceded his point about a separation in bargaining power.

Also, let's look at this beyond just the scope of law internships. Companies often use interns to get free labor, knowing full-well that there is unlikely to be anything at the end of the tunnel for interns besides a hearty pat on the back. Without laws like these, companies could essentially have rotating interns filling what should be a full-time position and not have to pay for it.

ruski
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Re: 1L Summer

Postby ruski » Thu Aug 05, 2010 4:18 pm

the consequences would be u filing a complaint with DOL and receiving back pay at market rate

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Bosque
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Re: 1L Summer

Postby Bosque » Thu Aug 05, 2010 4:22 pm

sundevil77 wrote:Are you really saying that you know better than the student what is good for him or her?


Yes, God damn it! People are stupid. :P

No, the libertarian in me agrees with you whole heartedly. But we would be kidding ourselves if we thought it would always turn out as cheery as you paint it. Some firms are going to take on dozens of interns that they don't intend to hire and hold the prize of a possible full time job over their heads (which they never intend to actually give) in order to motivate them to work their asses off for the company for free. And unfortunately, I would imagine this would be even more prevalent at the 2L level, where you actually NEED that summer job to turn into a real one.

Do I think it should be allowed? Maybe. Do I think it is a good idea to do? Hell no. But you are right, people should be free to make stupid decisions.

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sundevil77
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Re: 1L Summer

Postby sundevil77 » Thu Aug 05, 2010 4:28 pm

romothesavior wrote:
sundevil77 wrote:
Bosque wrote:
sundevil77 wrote:IMO, no unpaid internship should be illegal. You have two willing participants (student and employer) that are ready to engage in mutually beneficial exchange. Who are we to prohibit that from taking place? If we force the employer to pay students, then some of them might cancel internships altogether, in which case students would be deprived of an essential learning experience.

/rant


Because you DON'T have two willing participants. There is a big seperation in bargaining power here.


Actually you do, my friend. To the extent that there are not enough paying 1L summer jobs, there are students (not saying you are one of them) that are willing to do free work just so they can get the experience.


You just essentially conceded his point about a separation in bargaining power.

Also, let's look at this beyond just the scope of law internships. Companies often use interns to get free labor, knowing full-well that there is unlikely to be anything at the end of the tunnel for interns besides a hearty pat on the back. Without laws like these, companies could essentially have rotating interns filling what should be a full-time position and not have to pay for it.


Look, if the student believes engaging in free labor is beneficial, why should they be prohibited from doing it? People are allowed to volunteer for a noble cause and we call it a 'good' thing, yet they aren't allowed to work for experience that they believe is beneficial to their future?

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sundevil77
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Re: 1L Summer

Postby sundevil77 » Thu Aug 05, 2010 4:31 pm

Bosque wrote:
sundevil77 wrote:Are you really saying that you know better than the student what is good for him or her?


Yes, God damn it! People are stupid. :P

No, the libertarian in me agrees with you whole heartedly. But we would be kidding ourselves if we thought it would always turn out as cheery as you paint it. Some firms are going to take on dozens of interns that they don't intend to hire and hold the prize of a possible full time job over their heads (which they never intend to actually give) in order to motivate them to work their asses off for the company for free. And unfortunately, I would imagine this would be even more prevalent at the 2L level, where you actually NEED that summer job to turn into a real one.

Do I think it should be allowed? Maybe. Do I think it is a good idea to do? Hell no. But you are right, people should be free to make stupid decisions.


I totally agree with you that some people are going to be sadly dissapointed with doing an unpaid internship. The beauty of it is that reputation matters. If people get wind of an employer that screws over unpaid interns, they probably won't get many more applications. They will have to provide some type of benefit to interns or else no one will be interested in applying in the future. Economic players have to worry about reputation in the long-run.

BTW, glad to know that you have an inner libertarian :P

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Bosque
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Re: 1L Summer

Postby Bosque » Thu Aug 05, 2010 4:36 pm

sundevil77 wrote:
Bosque wrote:
sundevil77 wrote:Are you really saying that you know better than the student what is good for him or her?


Yes, God damn it! People are stupid. :P

No, the libertarian in me agrees with you whole heartedly. But we would be kidding ourselves if we thought it would always turn out as cheery as you paint it. Some firms are going to take on dozens of interns that they don't intend to hire and hold the prize of a possible full time job over their heads (which they never intend to actually give) in order to motivate them to work their asses off for the company for free. And unfortunately, I would imagine this would be even more prevalent at the 2L level, where you actually NEED that summer job to turn into a real one.

Do I think it should be allowed? Maybe. Do I think it is a good idea to do? Hell no. But you are right, people should be free to make stupid decisions.


I totally agree with you that some people are going to be sadly dissapointed with doing an unpaid internship. The beauty of it is that reputation matters. If people get wind of an employer that screws over unpaid interns, they probably won't get many more applications. They will have to provide some type of benefit to interns or else no one will be interested in applying in the future. Economic players have to worry about reputation in the long-run.

BTW, glad to know that you have an inner libertarian :P


He actually guides most of my thinking. I surprised myself a bit with my opinion on this one.

Anonymous User
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Re: 1L Summer

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Aug 05, 2010 4:46 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I am getting married next year and am a little worried what this means for my 1L summer work as I will need to take about 2 weeks off for the wedding/honeymoon.

a few questions:

1- I looked into UN internships and found out I will be able to take 2 weeks off if I make up the time by starting earlier than their actual start date. Would a UN internship be something good for 1L summer?

2- If firm work (even if it is unpaid) is a possibility, then how likely is it that I could get 2 weeks off? When do summer associates usually start?



I got married over my 1L summer, went on a honeymoon, and took 2 weeks (15 days) off from my job. I brought it up during the interview. They told me a few other people were starting early and I could start early, or I could extend a week or both. When I returned I worked extra hours to make up the time. They were very receptive to allowing me to take the time off. By the time I took off I had been working for 4 weeks so I had assignment and things. I made sure I gave my supervisor a good hand over of what I was working on and made it extremely accessible in the event they wanted to give it to another associate. It was a great decision, I don't regret it (although I did miss out on an opportunity to work at a different job because they couldn't accommodate my time off). If I was going to pick a summer to get married 1L summer is the one. They're more flexible, and don't expect as much. It's much more about your learning experience than a summer-long interview.

If you get paid work at a firm they pay on a weekly basis. The week you take off you won't get paid...simple! Internships are actually legal terms. They have a very specific meaning. If you are working in a legal capacity at a firm that does not necessarily mean you are getting paid. You could be doing the exact same work as paid summer associates and get paid through a grant or fellowship. If you work at a public-interest job you may not get paid because they don't have the funds, not because they're not allowed to pay you. If you do get paid that's a bonus not a requirement. It is illegal for you to be hired into a position that would otherwise be a paid position, and for them to let you work as an "intern" in that position.

Anonymous User
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Re: 1L Summer

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Aug 05, 2010 9:59 pm

If doing meaningful work for free is illegal, why many judges don't pay their interns. How does this work? I know people who are doing meaningful work for judges, but they are not getting paid or getting school credit for their work.

sibley
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Re: 1L Summer

Postby sibley » Thu Aug 05, 2010 10:02 pm

Anonymous User wrote:If doing meaningful work for free is illegal, why many judges don't pay their interns. How does this work? I know people who are doing meaningful work for judges, but they are not getting paid or getting school credit for their work.


I think a lot of people would pay judges to let them intern for them.

Renzo
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Re: 1L Summer

Postby Renzo » Thu Aug 05, 2010 10:10 pm

sundevil77 wrote:
It's actually not illegal. They can not pay you if the primary purpose of the internship is a tangible educational benefit. If the primary purpose becomes work product, even if there is still an educational benefit, then it becomes illegal.

IMO, no unpaid internship should be illegal. You have two willing participants (student and employer) that are ready to engage in mutually beneficial exchange. Who are we to prohibit that from taking place? If we force the employer to pay students, then some of them might cancel internships altogether, in which case students would be deprived of an essential learning experience.

/rant

1) you're only partially right. Primary purpose has nothing to do with it. An unpaid intern is legal if they provide no productive benefit to the employer, and their sole purpose is educational benefit,

2) So, indentured servitude is a good idea?

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Re: 1L Summer

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Aug 05, 2010 10:11 pm

sibley wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:If doing meaningful work for free is illegal, why many judges don't pay their interns. How does this work? I know people who are doing meaningful work for judges, but they are not getting paid or getting school credit for their work.


I think a lot of people would pay judges to let them intern for them.



I understand what you are saying, but is it illegal or not?

Renzo
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Re: 1L Summer

Postby Renzo » Thu Aug 05, 2010 10:12 pm

Anonymous User wrote:If doing meaningful work for free is illegal, why many judges don't pay their interns. How does this work? I know people who are doing meaningful work for judges, but they are not getting paid or getting school credit for their work.

You can volunteer. You just can't volunteer for a for-profit enterprise.

Anonymous User
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Re: 1L Summer

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Aug 05, 2010 10:14 pm

Renzo wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:If doing meaningful work for free is illegal, why many judges don't pay their interns. How does this work? I know people who are doing meaningful work for judges, but they are not getting paid or getting school credit for their work.

You can volunteer. You just can't volunteer for a for-profit enterprise.


so let's say I work for a federal judge, is that "volunteering" since it is a not-for profit?

Renzo
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Re: 1L Summer

Postby Renzo » Thu Aug 05, 2010 10:28 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Renzo wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:If doing meaningful work for free is illegal, why many judges don't pay their interns. How does this work? I know people who are doing meaningful work for judges, but they are not getting paid or getting school credit for their work.

You can volunteer. You just can't volunteer for a for-profit enterprise.


so let's say I work for a federal judge, is that "volunteering" since it is a not-for profit?

Yeah. You can work for free at a non-profit or for the government. You can work for free at a corporation too, it's only illegal for them not to pay you, not for you to work there.

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sundevil77
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Re: 1L Summer

Postby sundevil77 » Fri Aug 06, 2010 3:31 am

Renzo wrote:
sundevil77 wrote:
It's actually not illegal. They can not pay you if the primary purpose of the internship is a tangible educational benefit. If the primary purpose becomes work product, even if there is still an educational benefit, then it becomes illegal.

IMO, no unpaid internship should be illegal. You have two willing participants (student and employer) that are ready to engage in mutually beneficial exchange. Who are we to prohibit that from taking place? If we force the employer to pay students, then some of them might cancel internships altogether, in which case students would be deprived of an essential learning experience.

/rant

1) you're only partially right. Primary purpose has nothing to do with it. An unpaid intern is legal if they provide no productive benefit to the employer, and their sole purpose is educational benefit,

2) So, indentured servitude is a good idea?


1) I stand corrected. I couldn't remember the DoL's exact standard.

2) Although I doubt anyone in this day and age would enter into indentured servitude (making your question irrelevant), I have no problem with someone entering into what they believe is a mutually beneficial agreement. Who am I to tell them otherwise. As long as they don't infringe on my rights, they are good to go.

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romothesavior
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Re: 1L Summer

Postby romothesavior » Fri Aug 06, 2010 8:27 am

sundevil77 wrote:
2) Although I doubt anyone in this day and age would enter into indentured servitude (making your question irrelevant), I have no problem with someone entering into what they believe is a mutually beneficial agreement. Who am I to tell them otherwise. As long as they don't infringe on my rights, they are good to go.


Come on, dude. You just parroted the same argument for indentured servitude that supporters of indentured servitude would have thrown out hundreds of years ago. Many people entered into indentured servitude because they received promises of a better life, but we can hardly say they had true choice in the matter.

I wouldn't go so far as to call unpaid internships at for-profit entities indentured servitude, but I can see how it is at least exploitation (maybe not in the legal world since it is such a drain on resources, but in other corporate settings an intern can make huge contributions and get paid nothing). You need to keep in mind that true freedom of choice requires there to be at least some level of equality between the players; if I hold all the chips and you hold none, it makes no sense to call it a "mutually beneficial agreement."

Let me guess... you probably also think there shouldn't be a minimum wage?

Total Litigator
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Re: 1L Summer

Postby Total Litigator » Fri Aug 06, 2010 10:31 am

*Sigh* the only 3 of the 40 UN agencies actually pay their interns, and the ones that do require very specialized skills that are in short supply. These skills do not include legal ones. In fact, the Office of Legal Affairs for the UN makes law school graduates undergo a lengthy unpaid trial period before they are even considered for paid employment. So much for the UN promoting equality and justice around the world.

When the supply of qualified interns so outweighs the demand, their pay literally falls to 0.
Just a little thing called the free market.




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