Fordham 2L OCI - time to panic?

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doyleoil
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Re: Fordham 2L OCI - time to panic?

Postby doyleoil » Tue Aug 03, 2010 3:03 pm

dresden doll wrote:
bwv812 wrote:Another reason why a more full disclosure of stats would be helpful: OCS sure isn't telling people this (though maybe they would if asked point-blank).

Thanks for the tip.


I'm surprised that K and E was ever less selective than Weiss. Is this perhaps due to summer class sizes?


I doubt that has anything to do with it. K&E NYC is technically a "branch office," whereas Paul Weiss's home office is NYC. Branch offices are often less selective than home offices (though clearly not always - see, e.g., Jenner Chicago vs. Jenner DC), probably because they have a shorter history in the city and are perceived to get less of a city's "good work"/"good clients".

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MrKappus
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Re: Fordham 2L OCI - time to panic?

Postby MrKappus » Tue Aug 03, 2010 3:04 pm

^ Good to know. I still think it's weird to think of any Vault firm as "not selective," but these answers clear it up (i.e., that lack of selectivity is relative to school). Thx.

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dresden doll
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Re: Fordham 2L OCI - time to panic?

Postby dresden doll » Tue Aug 03, 2010 3:05 pm

doyleoil wrote:
dresden doll wrote:
bwv812 wrote:Another reason why a more full disclosure of stats would be helpful: OCS sure isn't telling people this (though maybe they would if asked point-blank).

Thanks for the tip.


I'm surprised that K and E was ever less selective than Weiss. Is this perhaps due to summer class sizes?


I doubt that has anything to do with it. K&E NYC is technically a "branch office," whereas Paul Weiss's home office is NYC. Branch offices are often less selective than home offices (though clearly not always - see, e.g., Jenner Chicago vs. Jenner DC), probably because they have a shorter history in the city and are perceived to get less of a city's "good work"/"good clients".


So you figure that bidding on firms with NYC offices that don't operate out of NYC is easier as far as getting a job than bidding on firms with NYC offices that operate out of NYC? Will keep that in mind.

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Re: Fordham 2L OCI - time to panic?

Postby 270910 » Tue Aug 03, 2010 3:08 pm

dresden doll wrote:So you figure that bidding on firms with NYC offices that don't operate out of NYC is easier as far as getting a job than bidding on firms with NYC offices that operate out of NYC? Will keep that in mind.


I'm not sure you can generalize like that. I think it's often easier to get Firm X's NYC branch office than Firm X's non-NYC HQ office, I don't think it follows that Firm X's NYC branch office will be easier to get than comparable firm Y's NYC HQ office.

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bwv812
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Re: Fordham 2L OCI - time to panic?

Postby bwv812 » Tue Aug 03, 2010 3:16 pm

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dresden doll
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Re: Fordham 2L OCI - time to panic?

Postby dresden doll » Tue Aug 03, 2010 3:20 pm

bwv812 wrote:
dresden doll wrote:So you figure that bidding on firms with NYC offices that don't operate out of NYC is easier as far as getting a job than bidding on firms with NYC offices that operate out of NYC? Will keep that in mind.

These NYC offices are generally much smaller and consequently have much smaller class sizes.


You mean, branch offices are smaller?

Ugh. Damn me if I know how to properly balance out all these factors.

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Re: Fordham 2L OCI - time to panic?

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Aug 03, 2010 3:28 pm

dresden doll wrote:
bwv812 wrote:Another reason why a more full disclosure of stats would be helpful: OCS sure isn't telling people this (though maybe they would if asked point-blank).

Thanks for the tip.


I'm surprised that K and E was ever less selective than Weiss. Is this perhaps due to summer class sizes?


We're talking about K&E NYC here, not K&E Chicago. Class size is definitely a factor nowadays. K&E NY used to have around 50 summer associates. This summer they had something like 15. Paul Weiss had around 80-something. K&E NY recruits from the same pool of students who would otherwise go to Paul Weiss, Davis Polk, Sullivan & Cromwell, Cleary, Simpson, etc.

doyleoil wrote:
dresden doll wrote:
bwv812 wrote:Another reason why a more full disclosure of stats would be helpful: OCS sure isn't telling people this (though maybe they would if asked point-blank).

Thanks for the tip.


I'm surprised that K and E was ever less selective than Weiss. Is this perhaps due to summer class sizes?


I doubt that has anything to do with it. K&E NYC is technically a "branch office," whereas Paul Weiss's home office is NYC. Branch offices are often less selective than home offices (though clearly not always - see, e.g., Jenner Chicago vs. Jenner DC), probably because they have a shorter history in the city and are perceived to get less of a city's "good work"/"good clients".


You are right, technically, but the NYC office is every bit its own office as the Chicago office is in its market. The NYC office has its own NYC client base, is highly autonomous, and has local expertise (see Chambers NY regional rankings: Band 1 in bankruptcy, Band 3 in corporate, Band 2 in general litigation, Band 1 in IP litigation). The client-base is established, and much work comes from the same clients that would hand work to your typical bulge-bracket Wall Street law firms.
dresden doll wrote:
doyleoil wrote:
dresden doll wrote:
bwv812 wrote:Another reason why a more full disclosure of stats would be helpful: OCS sure isn't telling people this (though maybe they would if asked point-blank).

Thanks for the tip.


I'm surprised that K and E was ever less selective than Weiss. Is this perhaps due to summer class sizes?


I doubt that has anything to do with it. K&E NYC is technically a "branch office," whereas Paul Weiss's home office is NYC. Branch offices are often less selective than home offices (though clearly not always - see, e.g., Jenner Chicago vs. Jenner DC), probably because they have a shorter history in the city and are perceived to get less of a city's "good work"/"good clients".


So you figure that bidding on firms with NYC offices that don't operate out of NYC is easier as far as getting a job than bidding on firms with NYC offices that operate out of NYC? Will keep that in mind.


As a general rule, yes. With respect to K&E NYC, no.

bwv812 wrote:
dresden doll wrote:So you figure that bidding on firms with NYC offices that don't operate out of NYC is easier as far as getting a job than bidding on firms with NYC offices that operate out of NYC? Will keep that in mind.

These NYC offices are generally much smaller and consequently have much smaller class sizes.


Generally, yes. But there are exceptions. Gibson NY, Latham NY, and Kirkland NY have pretty large local offices, and their growth rate is pretty high. It wouldn't surprise me if any of the above offices doubled in size in the next ten years. They already rival, in size, places (I think) like Cleary and Wachtell.

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Re: Fordham 2L OCI - time to panic?

Postby dresden doll » Tue Aug 03, 2010 3:32 pm

Is there a resource that details firm selectivity by markets? I did know that K and E Chicago is more selective than K and E NYC, but I have no clue beyond that.

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bwv812
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Re: Fordham 2L OCI - time to panic?

Postby bwv812 » Tue Aug 03, 2010 3:36 pm

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Re: Fordham 2L OCI - time to panic?

Postby dresden doll » Tue Aug 03, 2010 3:53 pm

bwv812 wrote:
dresden doll wrote:Is there a resource that details firm selectivity by markets? I did know that K and E Chicago is more selective than K and E NYC, but I have no clue beyond that.

Don't your Columbia and (older) Chicago data sheets give you a pretty good idea?


No - or at least not as good of an idea as I'd like. Chicago data is from 2007, and I fear those grade cutoffs are far too generous and unrealistic ITE. As for CLS, their data is more geared towards showing numbers of bids put in relative to numbers of interviews received. While such numbers do indicate how popular certain firms are with CLS-ers, they don't say much about firms' selectivity.

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Re: Fordham 2L OCI - time to panic?

Postby bwv812 » Tue Aug 03, 2010 4:06 pm

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doyleoil
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Re: Fordham 2L OCI - time to panic?

Postby doyleoil » Tue Aug 03, 2010 4:08 pm

bwv812 wrote:Chicago doesn't give bid stats?


no

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Re: Fordham 2L OCI - time to panic?

Postby dresden doll » Tue Aug 03, 2010 4:12 pm

bwv812 wrote:
dresden doll wrote:
bwv812 wrote:Don't your Columbia and (older) Chicago data sheets give you a pretty good idea?


No - or at least not as good of an idea as I'd like. Chicago data is from 2007, and I fear those grade cutoffs are far too generous and unrealistic ITE. As for CLS, their data is more geared towards showing numbers of bids put in relative to numbers of interviews received. While such numbers do indicate how popular certain firms are with CLS-ers, they don't say much about firms' selectivity.

I thought CLS gave grade & offer data? And Chicago doesn't give bid stats?


No. I even asked my friend at NU for bid stats in hopes that I could extrapolate from there on the assumption that there's some overlap between regions/firms Chi and NU kids tend to want. It appears that only CLS OCI disseminated bid stats.

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bwv812
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Re: Fordham 2L OCI - time to panic?

Postby bwv812 » Tue Aug 03, 2010 4:21 pm

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rayiner
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Re: Fordham 2L OCI - time to panic?

Postby rayiner » Tue Aug 03, 2010 4:25 pm

dresden doll wrote:
bwv812 wrote:Another reason why a more full disclosure of stats would be helpful: OCS sure isn't telling people this (though maybe they would if asked point-blank).

Thanks for the tip.


I'm surprised that K and E was ever less selective than Weiss. Is this perhaps due to summer class sizes?


Different offices have different selectivity levels in many cases. I know because NU breaks down the callback GPAs by office, and while K&E Chi is bit more selective than Paul Weiss NY, K&E NY is a bit less so.

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Re: Fordham 2L OCI - time to panic?

Postby dresden doll » Tue Aug 03, 2010 4:27 pm

bwv812 wrote:
dresden doll wrote:
bwv812 wrote:I thought CLS gave grade & offer data? And Chicago doesn't give bid stats?


No. I even asked my friend at NU for bid stats in hopes that I could extrapolate from there on the assumption that there's some overlap between regions/firms Chi and NU kids tend to want. It appears that only CLS OCI disseminated bid stats.

We get bid stats, but I doubt they'd be that helpful to you. They're probably much more important here since we have so many students and limited interview schedules (500 bids and 20 slots is not a pretty sight), not to mention something like 8 interviews per student.


Do you have minimum interview slots you require of a firm? I understood that CLS requires a minimum of 20 interview slots, which I presume is on account of the school's size.

And 8 interviews per student? Gosh, that seems really steep.

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Re: Fordham 2L OCI - time to panic?

Postby rayiner » Tue Aug 03, 2010 4:28 pm

dresden doll wrote:
bwv812 wrote:
dresden doll wrote:Is there a resource that details firm selectivity by markets? I did know that K and E Chicago is more selective than K and E NYC, but I have no clue beyond that.

Don't your Columbia and (older) Chicago data sheets give you a pretty good idea?


No - or at least not as good of an idea as I'd like. Chicago data is from 2007, and I fear those grade cutoffs are far too generous and unrealistic ITE. As for CLS, their data is more geared towards showing numbers of bids put in relative to numbers of interviews received. While such numbers do indicate how popular certain firms are with CLS-ers, they don't say much about firms' selectivity.


The 2007 data is too generous, but will give you a rough idea of selectivity modulo drastic relative drops in class size.

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Re: Fordham 2L OCI - time to panic?

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Aug 03, 2010 4:57 pm

Blindmelon wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Okay, it seems odd. Another BU student here. I also became an alternate at a few firms. Symplicity says that Lottery sign-up runs from noon today until the 6th, which is the same as pre-select sign-up. Maybe that means the lottery already ran?


Actually.. from talking to people it seems like the lottery is part of the pre-selects. Yea, I bid on 12 places and 6 of them are alts. hah.


What is says on the BU top secret website is: "The lottery is run after we receive a majority of employer selections and prior to the release of selection results to students." So I'm pretty sure it's already been run, and we ourselves don't know which interviews we got through lottery and which through employer selection. It might be safer to assume that the "alternate" decisions were made by the employers though I guess...

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Re: Fordham 2L OCI - time to panic?

Postby bwv812 » Tue Aug 03, 2010 5:12 pm

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Re: Fordham 2L OCI - time to panic?

Postby dresden doll » Tue Aug 03, 2010 5:22 pm

bwv812 wrote:Pretty much every interviewer does multiples of 20, which is a full day given 20-minute interviews. A few firms do 13x30-minute interviews, but these are only under the IP schedule. Some firms are doing firm-wide interviews for 7+ offices and only have 20 slots, and it makes little sense to even bid on these firms. Lots of firms have drastically cut down their schedules, only offering 20 slots whereas they used to do 40-60. Some still have lots of interviews (Paul Hastings at 140), and a number of the V20 have 60 slots (which probably means there will be lots of wasted interviews or concentration of interviews at the top, making the 8 per student even less useful).

The 8 per student is ridiculous, but it looks like we only have about 5600 slots and about 700 students... and OCS has apparently been telling people to expect something in the 6-10 range. Also, last year the median was 10 interviews. Not pretty.


Jesus. Puts my quandary into perspective. Thanks for the info. I wish you good luck, assuming you have not already gone through the OCI.

FWIW, it appears that UVA's average was 9 interviews which isn't exactly far off from your median.

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bwv812
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Re: Fordham 2L OCI - time to panic?

Postby bwv812 » Tue Aug 03, 2010 5:26 pm

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Re: Fordham 2L OCI - time to panic?

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Aug 03, 2010 5:26 pm

dresden doll wrote:FWIW, it appears that UVA's average was 9 interviews which isn't exactly far off from your median.


Two things:

1) UVA gave out an average of 9 pre-select interviews. There is also a lottery round which has not been run yet. Based on the number of firm interview slots and our student body, the actual "average" number of interviews should be between 15 and 18.

2) Additionally, because 60-80% (it's complex) of UVA interviews are on a pre-select basis, everyone has very different numbers of interviews. Most people I've talked to with LR level grades (3.7+) were offered at least 30 pre-select interviews. Many people in the top quarter had 20+. One consequence of the system is that the people who were least likely to get firm jobs also likely have the fewest interviews. It's probably not fair to everyone, but it's much different from lottery schools where everyone in the class will have a similar # of interviews (only varying based on desirability of location bid on).

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Re: Fordham 2L OCI - time to panic?

Postby Blindmelon » Wed Aug 04, 2010 2:36 pm

Blindmelon wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Blindmelon wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Blindmelon, do you know if BU's lottery has run yet? And if not, when do you find out which firms were assigned to you by lottery?


No idea. I think later on given that the lottery sign-up is a different time than pre-select sign up.

Also, I got alternate slaughtered. I guess that means I'm almost good enough for a 20 min oci interview? haha.


Okay, it seems odd. Another BU student here. I also became an alternate at a few firms. Symplicity says that Lottery sign-up runs from noon today until the 6th, which is the same as pre-select sign-up. Maybe that means the lottery already ran?


Actually.. from talking to people it seems like the lottery is part of the pre-selects. Yea, I bid on 12 places and 6 of them are alts. hah.


Confirmed with the CDO. Theres no way of knowing whats a preselect and whats lottery. If you have alts though, they may change to preselects. A few of mine changed over this morning.

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Re: Fordham 2L OCI - time to panic?

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Aug 07, 2010 7:50 am

bwv812 wrote:
dresden doll wrote:So you figure that bidding on firms with NYC offices that don't operate out of NYC is easier as far as getting a job than bidding on firms with NYC offices that operate out of NYC? Will keep that in mind.

These NYC offices are generally much smaller and consequently have much smaller class sizes.


Generally, yes. But there are exceptions. Gibson NY, Latham NY, and Kirkland NY have pretty large local offices, and their growth rate is pretty high. It wouldn't surprise me if any of the above offices doubled in size in the next ten years. They already rival, in size, places (I think) like Cleary and Wachtell.[/quote]

Their growth won't be in banking, lol

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Re: Fordham 2L OCI - time to panic?

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Aug 09, 2010 5:18 pm

To the OP: historically speaking, top third here would get something at OCI. Now, I am just above top quarter and don't expect to get anything, though this is hardly a gigantic loss, because I didn't come here expecting biglaw, and if I do get such an offer it will just be a very pleasant surprise. I don't think it's realistic to call any V100 firm "not selective" in this economy. I do think someone who is top third at our school will definitely be employed at graduation, but perhaps at a smaller firm, given the current economic climate.




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