Include 1L summer billing total in OCI resume?

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dresden doll
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Re: Include 1L summer billing total in OCI resume?

Postby dresden doll » Mon Aug 02, 2010 11:24 am

disco_barred wrote:
dresden doll wrote:
Matthies wrote:For the love of god NO


Cease with your jealousy.


OFF TOPIC TROLLING MODDDSSSSSSSS


I'm entirely on topic, sir.

Also, this thread is worthless. OP has clearly made up his mind to list billables on his resume and will plunge ahead regardless of the fact that this thread isn't providing him with validation he was doubtlessly hoping for.

270910
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Re: Include 1L summer billing total in OCI resume?

Postby 270910 » Mon Aug 02, 2010 11:26 am

dresden doll wrote:Also, this thread is worthless without pics.


That much I think we can both agree on.

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General Tso
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Re: Include 1L summer billing total in OCI resume?

Postby General Tso » Mon Aug 02, 2010 12:12 pm

dresden doll wrote:
Also, this thread is worthless. OP has clearly made up his mind to list billables on his resume and will plunge ahead regardless of the fact that this thread isn't providing him with validation he was doubtlessly hoping for.


Are you stupid? Why would I ask a question if I don't want to hear the answer?

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rayiner
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Re: Include 1L summer billing total in OCI resume?

Postby rayiner » Mon Aug 02, 2010 12:13 pm

General Tso wrote:
dresden doll wrote:
Also, this thread is worthless. OP has clearly made up his mind to list billables on his resume and will plunge ahead regardless of the fact that this thread isn't providing him with validation he was doubtlessly hoping for.


Are you stupid? Why would I ask a question if I don't want to hear the answer?


The only stupid thing in this thread is your question.

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General Tso
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Re: Include 1L summer billing total in OCI resume?

Postby General Tso » Mon Aug 02, 2010 12:18 pm

rayiner wrote:The only stupid thing in this thread is your question.


It seems stupid to you because you already knew the answer. But to me it seemed perfectly reasonable...if you were a hiring partner wading through a couple hundred TTT resumes like mine, wouldn't you be interested to see more than "T2 school; top 75%"?

But then again I suppose TLS isn't a place to ask questions :roll: Let's all head to BP and have a rip-roarin, rootin tootin good time!

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Re: Include 1L summer billing total in OCI resume?

Postby 270910 » Mon Aug 02, 2010 12:20 pm

General Tso wrote:
dresden doll wrote:
Also, this thread is worthless. OP has clearly made up his mind to list billables on his resume and will plunge ahead regardless of the fact that this thread isn't providing him with validation he was doubtlessly hoping for.


Are you stupid? Why would I ask a question if I don't want to hear the answer?


This is a fascinating and deep question. It happens all the time on TLS. People will post something like "Should I disclose _____ if my application says I should?" and then resist the posters who say relatively uncontroversial things like "Yes, following instructions on forms that bear your signature is a prudent course of conduct upon entry into the legal profession."

What motivates somebody to go out of the way to post a question when their mind is already set? A search for validation is I suspect a part of it. Whether it has deeper implications, I choose not to explore.

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bilbobaggins
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Re: Include 1L summer billing total in OCI resume?

Postby bilbobaggins » Mon Aug 02, 2010 12:22 pm

rando wrote:
General Tso wrote:
JPU wrote:I worked for a small firm where my hours were billed. I'm not going to list it on my resume but I will def be bringing it up in interviews as a talking point. As a SA and as an associate you are what you bill so it is very relevant.


Thank you...

I work at a small firm, and my billable hours are most definitely being billed to the client. I have made significantly more money for my firm than I've been paid this summer.


If your employer billed the client for hours produced by a 1L summer, then interviewers will just discount your summer employer as totally lacking credibility.

Mentioning the hours you billed in an interview or on your resume...

Best case scenario - the interviewer will see that you didn't just do fluff nonsense all summer and that you are smart enough to fill out a timesheet.

Worst case scenario - your resume will be thrown in the garbage as the recruiter laughs at you thinking that the hours you billed after 1 year of law school are relevant.


False. I would not put billable hours on the resume (it is tacky and stupid as mentioned), but many of us who work at small firms our 1L summers do a lot of legitimate legal work, especially if it's a defense or plaintiff's firm.

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General Tso
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Re: Include 1L summer billing total in OCI resume?

Postby General Tso » Mon Aug 02, 2010 12:25 pm

disco_barred wrote:
General Tso wrote:
dresden doll wrote:
Also, this thread is worthless. OP has clearly made up his mind to list billables on his resume and will plunge ahead regardless of the fact that this thread isn't providing him with validation he was doubtlessly hoping for.


Are you stupid? Why would I ask a question if I don't want to hear the answer?


This is a fascinating and deep question. It happens all the time on TLS. People will post something like "Should I disclose _____ if my application says I should?" and then resist the posters who say relatively uncontroversial things like "Yes, following instructions on forms that bear your signature is a prudent course of conduct upon entry into the legal profession."

What motivates somebody to go out of the way to post a question when their mind is already set? A search for validation is I suspect a part of it. Whether it has deeper implications, I choose not to explore.


Oh I agree, happens all the time. I am just not sure why some of the posters ITT pegged me as some kind of moron 0L kamikaze bent on destroying myself. I've decided not to include my billables.

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Re: Include 1L summer billing total in OCI resume?

Postby rando » Mon Aug 02, 2010 12:33 pm

bilbobaggins wrote:
rando wrote:
If your employer billed the client for hours produced by a 1L summer, then interviewers will just discount your summer employer as totally lacking credibility.


False. I would not put billable hours on the resume (it is tacky and stupid as mentioned), but many of us who work at small firms our 1L summers do a lot of legitimate legal work, especially if it's a defense or plaintiff's firm.


You misread the post. A lot of SA's did legitimate legal work. In fact, this summer I worked at a gigantic law firm hell-bent on world domination and even I did legitimate work. That does not mean that a law firm bills the client for that work.

A lot of this thread has headed in the direction of a misnomer that billable hours are necessarily billed to the client. The OP and a few others seem to think so. This is almost across the board not the case for SA's, large firm or small.

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dresden doll
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Re: Include 1L summer billing total in OCI resume?

Postby dresden doll » Mon Aug 02, 2010 12:38 pm

You don't see why I think you started this thread solely to seek out validation for the course of action you're already bent on pursuing? Allow me to help out.

General Tso wrote:
JPU wrote:I worked for a small firm where my hours were billed. I'm not going to list it on my resume but I will def be bringing it up in interviews as a talking point. As a SA and as an associate you are what you bill so it is very relevant.


Thank you...

I work at a small firm, and my billable hours are most definitely being billed to the client. I have made significantly more money for my firm than I've been paid this summer.


That you only thanked a single person who agreed with you speaks plenty.

Also, LOL at you questioning anyone's intelligence. I wouldn't go there, young grasshopper.

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bilbobaggins
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Re: Include 1L summer billing total in OCI resume?

Postby bilbobaggins » Mon Aug 02, 2010 12:45 pm

rando wrote:
bilbobaggins wrote:
rando wrote:
If your employer billed the client for hours produced by a 1L summer, then interviewers will just discount your summer employer as totally lacking credibility.


False. I would not put billable hours on the resume (it is tacky and stupid as mentioned), but many of us who work at small firms our 1L summers do a lot of legitimate legal work, especially if it's a defense or plaintiff's firm.


You misread the post. A lot of SA's did legitimate legal work. In fact, this summer I worked at a gigantic law firm hell-bent on world domination and even I did legitimate work. That does not mean that a law firm bills the client for that work.

A lot of this thread has headed in the direction of a misnomer that billable hours are necessarily billed to the client. The OP and a few others seem to think so. This is almost across the board not the case for SA's, large firm or small.


Yes, it is definitely the case that the hours get cut by a certain amount no matter where you're working, in terms of what's actually billed out to the client. Smaller firms that pay, however, generally can't afford to eat all of the hours.

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Re: Include 1L summer billing total in OCI resume?

Postby rando » Mon Aug 02, 2010 12:48 pm

bilbobaggins wrote:
rando wrote:
bilbobaggins wrote:
rando wrote:
If your employer billed the client for hours produced by a 1L summer, then interviewers will just discount your summer employer as totally lacking credibility.


False. I would not put billable hours on the resume (it is tacky and stupid as mentioned), but many of us who work at small firms our 1L summers do a lot of legitimate legal work, especially if it's a defense or plaintiff's firm.


You misread the post. A lot of SA's did legitimate legal work. In fact, this summer I worked at a gigantic law firm hell-bent on world domination and even I did legitimate work. That does not mean that a law firm bills the client for that work.

A lot of this thread has headed in the direction of a misnomer that billable hours are necessarily billed to the client. The OP and a few others seem to think so. This is almost across the board not the case for SA's, large firm or small.


Yes, it is definitely the case that the hours get cut by a certain amount no matter where you're working, in terms of what's actually billed out to the client. Smaller firms that pay, however, generally can't afford to eat all of the hours.


If they're paying you. The firm can afford it.

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dresden doll
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Re: Include 1L summer billing total in OCI resume?

Postby dresden doll » Mon Aug 02, 2010 12:49 pm

rando wrote:
bilbobaggins wrote:Yes, it is definitely the case that the hours get cut by a certain amount no matter where you're working, in terms of what's actually billed out to the client. Smaller firms that pay, however, generally can't afford to eat all of the hours.


If they're paying you. The firm can afford it.


Faulty logic is faulty.

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bilbobaggins
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Re: Include 1L summer billing total in OCI resume?

Postby bilbobaggins » Mon Aug 02, 2010 12:50 pm

rando wrote:If they're paying you. The firm can afford it.


I understand that you really, really think you have a great understanding of how every small law firm in America works and I'm very happy for you. But, when you work for a tiny defense firm they don't pay you because they feel charitable. They pay you because you can do work that can be legitimately billed to clients.

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Re: Include 1L summer billing total in OCI resume?

Postby rando » Mon Aug 02, 2010 12:56 pm

bilbobaggins wrote:
rando wrote:If they're paying you. The firm can afford it.


I understand that you really, really think you have a great understanding of how every small law firm in America works and I'm very happy for you. But, when you work for a tiny defense firm they don't pay you because they feel charitable. They pay you because you can do work that can be legitimately billed to clients.


Are you f'ing kidding me? If they wanted that, they would hire an attorney.

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General Tso
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Re: Include 1L summer billing total in OCI resume?

Postby General Tso » Mon Aug 02, 2010 1:03 pm

rando wrote:
bilbobaggins wrote:
rando wrote:If they're paying you. The firm can afford it.


I understand that you really, really think you have a great understanding of how every small law firm in America works and I'm very happy for you. But, when you work for a tiny defense firm they don't pay you because they feel charitable. They pay you because you can do work that can be legitimately billed to clients.


Are you f'ing kidding me? If they wanted that, they would hire an attorney.


not many attorneys willing to do it for $15/hour

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Re: Include 1L summer billing total in OCI resume?

Postby rando » Mon Aug 02, 2010 1:06 pm

General Tso wrote:
rando wrote:
bilbobaggins wrote:
rando wrote:If they're paying you. The firm can afford it.


I understand that you really, really think you have a great understanding of how every small law firm in America works and I'm very happy for you. But, when you work for a tiny defense firm they don't pay you because they feel charitable. They pay you because you can do work that can be legitimately billed to clients.


Are you f'ing kidding me? If they wanted that, they would hire an attorney.


not many attorneys willing to do it for $15/hour


Literally thousands of attorneys willing to do it for $15/hour and literally zero 1l's (or 2L's for that matter) worth even the pittance that $15/hr represents.

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Re: Include 1L summer billing total in OCI resume?

Postby NYAssociate » Mon Aug 02, 2010 1:07 pm

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Last edited by NYAssociate on Tue Oct 05, 2010 6:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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dresden doll
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Re: Include 1L summer billing total in OCI resume?

Postby dresden doll » Mon Aug 02, 2010 1:10 pm

rando wrote:Are you f'ing kidding me? If they wanted that, they would hire an attorney.


And exactly why do you suppose small firms hire law students then? For the lulz?

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Re: Include 1L summer billing total in OCI resume?

Postby rando » Mon Aug 02, 2010 1:11 pm

NYAssociate wrote:...keep in mind that even summer associates have hourly rates. Clients don't get SA work for free, no matter how many SA hours were actually billed to them.


Since, NYA actually knows what he is talking about, I will defer and agree to disagree. My experience with small firm work and this past summer has made it unequivocally clear that clients get SA work for free. But I will underscore the fact that it may be different in different places, though the business sense of a client allowing this is questionable.

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Re: Include 1L summer billing total in OCI resume?

Postby rando » Mon Aug 02, 2010 1:13 pm

dresden doll wrote:
rando wrote:Are you f'ing kidding me? If they wanted that, they would hire an attorney.


And exactly why do you suppose small firms hire law students then? For the lulz?


Not to make money, if that's what you think is so glaringly obvious. IME it has been for recruitment purposes. For many others I know it has been unpaid and due to alumni connections.

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General Tso
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Re: Include 1L summer billing total in OCI resume?

Postby General Tso » Mon Aug 02, 2010 1:14 pm

rando wrote:
Literally thousands of attorneys willing to do it for $15/hour and literally zero 1l's (or 2L's for that matter) worth even the pittance that $15/hr represents.


Maybe small firms consider a top 1/3 Mason or American 1L student to be superior to a below median JD from Catholic or UDC?

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Re: Include 1L summer billing total in OCI resume?

Postby NYAssociate » Mon Aug 02, 2010 1:14 pm

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Last edited by NYAssociate on Tue Oct 05, 2010 6:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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dresden doll
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Re: Include 1L summer billing total in OCI resume?

Postby dresden doll » Mon Aug 02, 2010 1:16 pm

rando wrote:Not to make money, if that's what you think is so glaringly obvious. IME it has been for recruitment purposes. For many others I know it has been unpaid and due to alumni connections.


I am working for a smaller firm that's definitely not interested in hiring recent law school graduates. Their previous SA - who I know they were quite happy about - just graduated from LS and they hired me instead of her anyway. Whatever they hired me for, recruitment purpose isn't it.

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California Babe
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Re: Include 1L summer billing total in OCI resume?

Postby California Babe » Mon Aug 02, 2010 1:18 pm

rando wrote:
NYAssociate wrote:...keep in mind that even summer associates have hourly rates. Clients don't get SA work for free, no matter how many SA hours were actually billed to them.


Since, NYA actually knows what he is talking about, I will defer and agree to disagree. My experience with small firm work and this past summer has made it unequivocally clear that clients get SA work for free. But I will underscore the fact that it may be different in different places, though the business sense of a client allowing this is questionable.


This really isn't a matter of "agree to disagree."

Your small firm is not the same as every small firm. What your firm does is not what every firm does. I have also personally worked for a firm that bills clients for SA work. Are you really trying to argue that because the firm you worked at didn't bill clients for SA work, you know the firm I worked at didn't?

dresdon doll wrote:Faulty logic is faulty.




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