How much does appearance matter?

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dresden doll
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Re: How much does appearance matter?

Postby dresden doll » Thu Aug 05, 2010 12:47 pm

worldtraveler wrote:Have you ever lived in any of these places you're criticizing? The Middle East has lots of female attorneys. There are also plenty of women in other high level professions, such as engineering and medicine. Stop criticizing someone's life choices just because you read a news article.


I'd like to know what plenty means in this context, given that women tend to be underrepresented in the professions you mentioned even here in the Western world.

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romothesavior
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Re: How much does appearance matter?

Postby romothesavior » Thu Aug 05, 2010 12:48 pm

dresden doll wrote:
worldtraveler wrote:Have you ever lived in any of these places you're criticizing? The Middle East has lots of female attorneys. There are also plenty of women in other high level professions, such as engineering and medicine. Stop criticizing someone's life choices just because you read a news article.


I'd like to know what plenty means in this context, given that women tend to be underrepresented in the professions you mentioned even here in the Western world.


+1. Saudi Arabia started allowing women to practice law earlier this year. I would be shocked if more than 10% of attorneys in the Middle East are women.

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dresden doll
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Re: How much does appearance matter?

Postby dresden doll » Thu Aug 05, 2010 12:51 pm

romothesavior wrote:
dresden doll wrote:
worldtraveler wrote:Have you ever lived in any of these places you're criticizing? The Middle East has lots of female attorneys. There are also plenty of women in other high level professions, such as engineering and medicine. Stop criticizing someone's life choices just because you read a news article.


I'd like to know what plenty means in this context, given that women tend to be underrepresented in the professions you mentioned even here in the Western world.


+1. Saudi Arabia started allowing women to practice law earlier this year. I would be shocked if more than 10% of attorneys in the Middle East are women.


Yeah, that's the stat I was thinking of.

I have always refused to jump on the 'bash Islam/non-Western world' bandwagon so I won't switch gears now, but I find it a stretch to believe that there are tons of emancipated women running around Middle East as lawyers, doctors and engineers.

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worldtraveler
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Re: How much does appearance matter?

Postby worldtraveler » Thu Aug 05, 2010 1:04 pm

dresden doll wrote:
romothesavior wrote:
dresden doll wrote:
worldtraveler wrote:Have you ever lived in any of these places you're criticizing? The Middle East has lots of female attorneys. There are also plenty of women in other high level professions, such as engineering and medicine. Stop criticizing someone's life choices just because you read a news article.


I'd like to know what plenty means in this context, given that women tend to be underrepresented in the professions you mentioned even here in the Western world.


+1. Saudi Arabia started allowing women to practice law earlier this year. I would be shocked if more than 10% of attorneys in the Middle East are women.


Yeah, that's the stat I was thinking of.

I have always refused to jump on the 'bash Islam/non-Western world' bandwagon so I won't switch gears now, but I find it a stretch to believe that there are tons of emancipated women running around Middle East as lawyers, doctors and engineers.


My internet connection is funky or I would look up numbers now. Also, I'm not including Saudi Arabia because the OP specifically said she didn't want to work there, and because it's very different from the Middle East.
Edit: I meant to say "the rest of the Middle East."

I studied abroad at the University of Jordan about 6 years ago and took some law classes. There were about 40% female law students, and of the ones I've kept in touch with all are practicing now. I think when it comes to firms, they are very male dominated, much as they are anywhere. Women tend to do more family law or small law type of stuff. I also know 5 female attorneys working on refugee issues in Jordan and Syria. UNIFEM and other women's based NGOs also have huge staff numbers in the Middle East, and worldwide NGO staff tends to be overwhelmingly female. I did some work with UNIFEM while I was there and met a lot of female attorneys. However, I'm not sure if you look up any sort of a list of "practicing attorneys" per country that they would be listed. With NGOs a lot of the work people do is legal in nature but you're not necessarily working as an attorney.

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romothesavior
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Re: How much does appearance matter?

Postby romothesavior » Thu Aug 05, 2010 1:10 pm

WT, you may be right about the number of female attorneys, but it is a moot point. Let me just quote this post as TCR:

Veyron wrote:Strip away all of the religious stuff. Imagine OP as a white male Christian. Ok, have you done this, good.

Now, who would argue with the proposition that OP is your typical TTT idiot who should not be attending law school due to a lack of interest and unrealistic expectations about legal practice, pay and job opportunities? No one. Hmmmm, I see.


And I'll add to that: OP is trying to do international law from BLS. Covering her body and shaking hands should be the least of her concerns.

She may have a better shot at working at an international firm since she is a foreigner already, but I still don't like her odds coming from BLS. If OP really wants to practice law at a firm in Jordan or the Emirates or whatever, then she should go there and get her degree.

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dresden doll
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Re: How much does appearance matter?

Postby dresden doll » Thu Aug 05, 2010 1:17 pm

worldtraveler wrote:
My internet connection is funky or I would look up numbers now. Also, I'm not including Saudi Arabia because the OP specifically said she didn't want to work there, and because it's very different from the Middle East.
Edit: I meant to say "the rest of the Middle East."

I studied abroad at the University of Jordan about 6 years ago and took some law classes. There were about 40% female law students, and of the ones I've kept in touch with all are practicing now. I think when it comes to firms, they are very male dominated, much as they are anywhere. Women tend to do more family law or small law type of stuff. I also know 5 female attorneys working on refugee issues in Jordan and Syria. UNIFEM and other women's based NGOs also have huge staff numbers in the Middle East, and worldwide NGO staff tends to be overwhelmingly female. I did some work with UNIFEM while I was there and met a lot of female attorneys. However, I'm not sure if you look up any sort of a list of "practicing attorneys" per country that they would be listed. With NGOs a lot of the work people do is legal in nature but you're not necessarily working as an attorney.


Fair. Appreciate the post/info. Apologies if I offended in any way with my skepticism.

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Waterman47
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Re: How much does appearance matter?

Postby Waterman47 » Thu Aug 05, 2010 1:29 pm

It's convenient to refer to a bunch of different countries as "the Middle East" and then generalize about the group, but the truth is that there are varying practices and laws in each country. What one poster is saying about women may be 100% true in one Middle Eastern country and 100% false in another. In Iran, women have been practicing law for at least 50 years, although the Islamic Revolution took away many of their rights to practice at the highest levels or become judges. In Saudi Arabia, as others noted, women just earned the right to practice. So it's tough to generalize.

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bwv812
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Re: How much does appearance matter?

Postby bwv812 » Fri Aug 06, 2010 12:04 am

.

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worldtraveler
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Re: How much does appearance matter?

Postby worldtraveler » Fri Aug 06, 2010 1:12 am

bwv812 wrote:
worldtraveler wrote:
bwv812 wrote:
goosey wrote:The fact that you equate having a maid or live in nanny with wanting "the kind of life" which supports abuse of personal servants is a bit offensive.

Nannies in any location aren't "making much"

Most importantly of all though, just because abuse of servants is rampant, it does not mean all servants are abused, if you would like to call a maid or nanny a "servant" to begin with. My entire family back home has maids and nannies--to the extent that when they go on vacation, the nanny goes with them. Not only do they get paid decently, they are bought houses, clothing for their children if they have them, furniture, and their weddings are paid for (including buying gold for the bride)---assumptions based on what you have read about can't be used to apply blanket statement or make judgements


I'm not equating having a maid or nanny with abuse of servants. Of course it is possible to have a nanny or servant and treat them well (though I'm not sure how taking nannies with you on vacation is treating them well: presumably they still perform nanny-related duties while on "vacation").

The fact remains, however, that the abuse of foreign servants (and workers in general) in the gulf is widespread (see the recent nyt article: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/02/world/middleeast/02domestic.html). It is also true that they are paid much less there than they would be here, especially after you consider placement fees and the like.

I only brought it up because I find it interesting that "the kind of life" you want is one that includes personal drivers, maids, and nannies nannies. To me, it seems like these highly stratified societies where these are common are exactly those which would be least receptive to the idea of female lawyers, though perhaps I should not be surprised since this same sort of stratification seems somewhat inherent (even if unintentional) in your religious belief that persons of the opposite sex should not shake hands.


Have you ever lived in any of these places you're criticizing? The Middle East has lots of female attorneys. There are also plenty of women in other high level professions, such as engineering and medicine. Stop criticizing someone's life choices just because you read a news article.

Pretty sure I specified the gulf states, and not the Middle East as a whole. And does it sound like I would want to live there? But if you want to give me some stats on the prevalence of female professionals and lawyers in countries where the abaya and personal servants are the norm, as well as information on how members of the opposite sex interact in those countries, I'll be happy to be wrong.


I'm not sure what your beef is with personal servants. If anything, having a lot of household help would mean that women (well, "elite" women like lawyers) would have an easier time in the work force. Plus, this is the norm in most of the developing world. A lot of people would consider it to be unacceptable if you are a wealthy family who doesn't employ other people. With some postings with the UN or with big NGOs it is mandated that you have a maid or a driver, and part of this is to employ local people.

There is a lot of abuse and exploitation, but that's not universal. For some people it ends up being a great job opportunity, like the OP said.

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bwv812
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Re: How much does appearance matter?

Postby bwv812 » Fri Aug 06, 2010 1:30 am

.

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drdolittle
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Re: How much does appearance matter?

Postby drdolittle » Fri Aug 06, 2010 1:39 am

bwv812 wrote:That aside, my main point was that if you take a culture with fairly rigid social stratification — where everyone has a place, and everyone knows where everyone else belongs — combined with a society that places religious conditions on the interaction between sexes, then I would think that you have reason to question how easily/fully one could work as a female lawyer.


Come on now, we don't usually permit reality to confuse us on TLS... :wink:

jitsrenzo
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Re: How much does appearance matter?

Postby jitsrenzo » Wed Aug 11, 2010 1:41 am

Yeah, if I can't hack it here with my BLS degree because of intolerant WASPs, I'll just go to that mecca of freedom called the Middle East, where I can have it all: a career where people respect my mind AND my religious beliefs, maids, drivers, a free villa, and all the free time in the world.

OP, I don't want to attack you personally. But your vague plans make it very clear you gotta do some more research and thinking about what it is you want to do and what is possible.

Check out this article on Dubai, supposedly one of the most liberal and Western-oriented places in the Middle East:

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/johann-hari/the-dark-side-of-dubai-1664368.html


It is an open secret that once you hire a maid, you have absolute power over her. You take her passport – everyone does; you decide when to pay her, and when – if ever – she can take a break; and you decide who she talks to. She speaks no Arabic. She cannot escape.

In a Burger King, a Filipino girl tells me it is "terrifying" for her to wander the malls in Dubai because Filipino maids or nannies always sneak away from the family they are with and beg her for help. "They say – 'Please, I am being held prisoner, they don't let me call home, they make me work every waking hour seven days a week.' At first I would say – my God, I will tell the consulate, where are you staying? But they never know their address, and the consulate isn't interested. I avoid them now. I keep thinking about a woman who told me she hadn't eaten any fruit in four years. They think I have power because I can walk around on my own, but I'm powerless."

drdolittle wrote:
bwv812 wrote:That aside, my main point was that if you take a culture with fairly rigid social stratification — where everyone has a place, and everyone knows where everyone else belongs — combined with a society that places religious conditions on the interaction between sexes, then I would think that you have reason to question how easily/fully one could work as a female lawyer.


Come on now, we don't usually permit reality to confuse us on TLS... :wink:

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Re: How much does appearance matter?

Postby 20160810 » Wed Aug 11, 2010 3:49 am

dresden doll wrote:
worldtraveler wrote:Have you ever lived in any of these places you're criticizing? The Middle East has lots of female attorneys. There are also plenty of women in other high level professions, such as engineering and medicine. Stop criticizing someone's life choices just because you read a news article.


I'd like to know what plenty means in this context, given that women tend to be underrepresented in the professions you mentioned even here in the Western world.

This thread has been super digressive, but honestly WT your comment raised an eyebrow with me too. It's not exactly head-in-the-sand ignorance to suggest that the Arab World has a lot of room for improvement w/r/t women's rights.

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romothesavior
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Re: How much does appearance matter?

Postby romothesavior » Wed Aug 11, 2010 8:43 am

Jesus jitsrenzo... that is some messed up stuff. Articles like this make me sad for the entire human race.

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Re: How much does appearance matter?

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Aug 11, 2010 9:51 am

The maid situation in the ME isn't that bad. We definitely had maids/houseboys when we were there. We treated them with respect, as did everyone on my street. Almost everyone I know treated their maids/houseboys with respect. I never encountered the situation the article speaks of (and probably would notice it if it had occurred near me).

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jayn3
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Re: How much does appearance matter?

Postby jayn3 » Wed Aug 11, 2010 10:25 am

romothesavior wrote:Jesus jitsrenzo... that is some messed up stuff. Articles like this make me sad for the entire human race.

agreed. thanks for posting it tho, jr....

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Bosque
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Re: How much does appearance matter?

Postby Bosque » Wed Aug 11, 2010 12:05 pm

Anonymous User wrote: I never encountered the situation the article speaks of (and probably would notice it if it had occurred near me).


Everyone would LIKE to think that is so about themselves. But for 95% of the population, that just isn't true.

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Re: How much does appearance matter?

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Aug 11, 2010 12:12 pm

Bosque wrote:
Anonymous User wrote: I never encountered the situation the article speaks of (and probably would notice it if it had occurred near me).


Everyone would LIKE to think that is so about themselves. But for 95% of the population, that just isn't true.



No, if you lived there, you would have noticed. It's not hard to walk by obscenely rich Arab families in Dubai mega-malls and see their team of maids and baby-sitters follow suit.

Overall, I abhor even the notion that maids/servants/houseboys/drivers/etc. exist. But for the most part, from what I saw, they were well treated. The real problem in the Middle East is immigrant workers rights overall, not just the treatment of servants within familial households.

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Re: How much does appearance matter?

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Aug 11, 2010 12:18 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Bosque wrote:
Anonymous User wrote: I never encountered the situation the article speaks of (and probably would notice it if it had occurred near me).


Everyone would LIKE to think that is so about themselves. But for 95% of the population, that just isn't true.



No, if you lived there, you would have noticed. It's not hard to walk by obscenely rich Arab families in Dubai mega-malls and see their team of maids and baby-sitters follow suit.

Overall, I abhor even the notion that maids/servants/houseboys/drivers/etc. exist. But for the most part, from what I saw, they were well treated. The real problem in the Middle East is immigrant workers rights overall, not just the treatment of servants within familial households.


They were well treated... in public. You have no idea what happened behind closed doors. Sometimes you just can't pick up on abuse in public. Nothing wrong with you if you cannot, sometimes no one can. But I think it is naive to assume that just because the servants seemed content when the are in the mall that they are all well treated at home. What you see as happiness could just be relief to have a break.

I don't doubt that there are servants there who ARE well taken care of. But I gaurantee you at least some are being abused.

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Bosque
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Re: How much does appearance matter?

Postby Bosque » Wed Aug 11, 2010 12:18 pm

Crap, that was me. Didn't mean to hit anonymous.

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Re: How much does appearance matter?

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Aug 11, 2010 12:19 pm

Bosque wrote:Crap, that was me. Didn't mean to hit anonymous.


I don't know why I felt like I knew that.

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Re: How much does appearance matter?

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Aug 11, 2010 12:20 pm

They were well treated... in public. You have no idea what happened behind closed doors. Sometimes you just can't pick up on abuse in public. Nothing wrong with you if you cannot, sometimes no one can. But I think it is naive to assume that just because the servants seemed content when the are in the mall that they are all well treated at home. What you see as happiness could just be relief to have a break.


Absolutely. But the article points to these public instances and seems to indicate that these are widespread. They're not. When I read it, it sounded like "maid uprising in Dubai."

n a Burger King, a Filipino girl tells me it is "terrifying" for her to wander the malls in Dubai because Filipino maids or nannies always sneak away from the family they are with and beg her for help. "They say – 'Please, I am being held prisoner, they don't let me call home, they make me work every waking hour seven days a week.' At first I would say – my God, I will tell the consulate, where are you staying? But they never know their address, and the consulate isn't interested. I avoid them now. I keep thinking about a woman who told me she hadn't eaten any fruit in four years. They think I have power because I can walk around on my own, but I'm powerless."

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Bosque
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Re: How much does appearance matter?

Postby Bosque » Wed Aug 11, 2010 12:22 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
They were well treated... in public. You have no idea what happened behind closed doors. Sometimes you just can't pick up on abuse in public. Nothing wrong with you if you cannot, sometimes no one can. But I think it is naive to assume that just because the servants seemed content when the are in the mall that they are all well treated at home. What you see as happiness could just be relief to have a break.


Absolutely. But the article points to these public instances and seems to indicate that these are widespread. They're not. When I read it, it sounded like "maid uprising in Dubai."


Fair enough.

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paratactical
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Re: How much does appearance matter?

Postby paratactical » Wed Aug 11, 2010 12:22 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
They were well treated... in public. You have no idea what happened behind closed doors. Sometimes you just can't pick up on abuse in public. Nothing wrong with you if you cannot, sometimes no one can. But I think it is naive to assume that just because the servants seemed content when the are in the mall that they are all well treated at home. What you see as happiness could just be relief to have a break.


Absolutely. But the article points to these public instances and seems to indicate that these are widespread. They're not. When I read it, it sounded like "maid uprising in Dubai."

n a Burger King, a Filipino girl tells me it is "terrifying" for her to wander the malls in Dubai because Filipino maids or nannies always sneak away from the family they are with and beg her for help. "They say – 'Please, I am being held prisoner, they don't let me call home, they make me work every waking hour seven days a week.' At first I would say – my God, I will tell the consulate, where are you staying? But they never know their address, and the consulate isn't interested. I avoid them now. I keep thinking about a woman who told me she hadn't eaten any fruit in four years. They think I have power because I can walk around on my own, but I'm powerless."


lol did you even read what you quoted? It says they sneak away from the family they are with when they can to ask other people for help.

09042014
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Re: How much does appearance matter?

Postby 09042014 » Wed Aug 11, 2010 12:24 pm

Also there are no gays in Iran.




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