How much does appearance matter?

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Bangalmafia
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Re: How much does appearance matter?

Postby Bangalmafia » Wed Aug 04, 2010 6:14 pm


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romothesavior
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Re: How much does appearance matter?

Postby romothesavior » Wed Aug 04, 2010 6:18 pm

Desert Fox wrote:Well she ain't getting that lifestyle in the USA from BLS. Are women even allowed to practice in teh Middle East. I know in Saudi Arabia they are not.


Apparently they are now:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8526862.stm

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Veyron
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Re: How much does appearance matter?

Postby Veyron » Wed Aug 04, 2010 7:35 pm

Strip away all of the religious stuff. Imagine OP as a white male Christian. Ok, have you done this, good.

Now, who would argue with the proposition that OP is your typical TTT idiot who should not be attending law school due to a lack of interest and unrealistic expectations about legal practice, pay and job opportunities? No one. Hmmmm, I see.

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goosey
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Re: How much does appearance matter?

Postby goosey » Wed Aug 04, 2010 7:41 pm

Bosque wrote:
romothesavior wrote:
bwv812 wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:You should just open the bakery now.

Bakers probably don't make enough in the arab world to be able to afford personal servants (not that that they get paid much, and abuse of such [foreign] servants is rampant), which is "the kind of life" OP would like.


Where are you getting this from?


Page 5 or so (somewhere around there), where she talks about getting washing machines replaced and the prevalence of live in nannies in the Arabic world.

Found it:

goosey wrote:
Pearalegal wrote:For what its worth, the idea that a smart and ambitious young person would need to move across the world to find more acceptance and career opportunities depresses me. I think you might have mentioned that you'd personally be happier there, though, so I guess its not that big of a deal.

HOWEVER, have you ever spent a significant amount of time in the middle east? Seems like a big jump to say, I'm going to an American law school with as risky career footing as BLS (that usually centers completely in New York City), but would be happier practicing/living in the Middle East even though I've only started learning Arabic and Islamic law. Makes me (perhaps totally unfairly) think that career path hasn't been completely thought out and perhaps borders on a little idealistic.

If you're this wary about working in the US and adapting to things such as handshakes, have you thought about postponing law school for a year and maybe try to get a masters or at least live abroad to get a sense of where you'd be happiest? I mean, this is your life we're talking about.


I am very, very unsure about what I'd like to do after law school--at times I've even thought about working a few years and then opening a bakery. I would have loved to go into academia but coming from bls, that is not at all possible. I've thought about working for women's rights in the middle east, studying islamic finance in detail and doing something along those lines---I am all over the place. If I stay here, Ive also considered Trusts & Estates, which I will have to do more research on.

I am pretty comfortable living there. My brother lives in Dubai and I have spent a very good amount of time there as well as in Pakistan (which, though not technically the Middle East, is a Muslim country nonetheless)--I actually prefer life there overall because it makes live-in maids/nannies a much bigger possibility. I want a family *and* a career--I know women do that all the time in the states, but I'd like to have a live in nanny and maid to make it a bit easier (laugh if u must). My fiance also wants to move overseas because the salary and benefits for American educated professionals is amazing (90k tax free starting, plus stipends for car/driver/villa is pretty standard). My uncle lived/worked in Saudi Arabia for nearly a decade---the company paid for everything from their children's schooling (private schools in America) to their car. When their dishwasher broke, they would make a phone call and instead of a repair man, and entire new dishwasher would be brought in. Its a pretty good deal. Plus, I am more comfortable with the culture and stuff. Certain things annoy the hell out of me over there, but there will be issues any where I live.



The fact that you equate having a maid or live in nanny with wanting "the kind of life" which supports abuse of personal servants is a bit offensive.

Nannies in any location aren't "making much"

Most importantly of all though, just because abuse of servants is rampant, it does not mean all servants are abused, if you would like to call a maid or nanny a "servant" to begin with. My entire family back home has maids and nannies--to the extent that when they go on vacation, the nanny goes with them. Not only do they get paid decently, they are bought houses, clothing for their children if they have them, furniture, and their weddings are paid for (including buying gold for the bride)---assumptions based on what you have read about can't be used to apply blanket statement or make judgements

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drdolittle
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Re: How much does appearance matter?

Postby drdolittle » Wed Aug 04, 2010 7:56 pm

goosey wrote:I think that going into a profession that is pretty much based on holding up principles and values and then sacrificing your own in order to get there is a bit hypocritical.


Welcome to the real world. I don't like it either, but unfortunately most professions are not exactly what they seem.

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northwood
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Re: How much does appearance matter?

Postby northwood » Wed Aug 04, 2010 8:16 pm

i just skimmed this thread and if you havent answered this question, I would spend a lot of time searching for the answer. Where do you want to live? If you want to live in America, then you will have to get used to either: making consessions to your beliefs/ principles ( shaking hands, and appearances), or fighting three times as harder to get a job, and to move up the ladder. Unfortunately, there are a lot of biased and shallow people. Appearances and social etiquette are factors that are relevant and important in the workplace. While it may be unfair, or more difficult, these are actual barriers that can negatively impact ( but not necessairly prevent) your career search, especially if you move away from large muslim centers ( and big cities).

If you want to live in the Middle East, where you wont have to sacrifice your beliefs, then you face the issue of gender bias/ and other culutrual value differences. Either way, before spending any time pursuing a degree, I would believe it is necessary to figure out your life, your values ( and if and how much you are willing to compromise them), and what you want. You talk about having a fiance, and starting a family sometime soon. How will this impact your career and goals?

How offended will you be when you hear co workers make snide remarks, or off color jokes, or even talk about their activities over the weekend? How will you react to this, as well as client interactions and perceptions?
I think you need to continue doing soul searching, and talk to trusted family and friends. If you need futher assistance contact an appropriate muslim student league, or association for muslim lawyers ( if there is something like that) for futher info. Good luck

d34d9823
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Re: How much does appearance matter?

Postby d34d9823 » Wed Aug 04, 2010 8:38 pm

drdolittle wrote:
goosey wrote:I think that going into a profession that is pretty much based on holding up principles and values and then sacrificing your own in order to get there is a bit hypocritical.


Welcome to the real world. I don't like it either, but unfortunately most professions are not exactly what they seem.

If you think that most professions are about making money, then they are exactly what they seem.

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audrey hepburn
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Re: How much does appearance matter?

Postby audrey hepburn » Wed Aug 04, 2010 8:57 pm

One of my friends is a muslim girl who wears hijab (not abayya)- she also does not shake hands with males. She works in finance and also has to deal with clients. However, she is not a lawyer but I think this story still relates.

She met a new client for the first time last week and when she did not shake his hand the client was confused yet intrigued at the same time. He said, it is easy to find talented people nowadays but hard to find talented people who still hold values. The client was not a Muslim but rather a Caucasian.

This is why early in this thread my advice was to focus on school and do well and people will see beyond the hand shaking.

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zanda
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Re: How much does appearance matter?

Postby zanda » Wed Aug 04, 2010 9:01 pm

audrey hepburn wrote:The client was not a Muslim but rather a Caucasian.


This sentence made me chuckle. :)

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bwv812
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Re: How much does appearance matter?

Postby bwv812 » Wed Aug 04, 2010 9:08 pm

.

270910
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Re: How much does appearance matter?

Postby 270910 » Wed Aug 04, 2010 9:24 pm

zanda wrote:
audrey hepburn wrote:The client was not a Muslim but rather a Caucasian.


This sentence made me chuckle. :)


That sentence made my eyes bleed profusely.

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Duralex
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Re: How much does appearance matter?

Postby Duralex » Wed Aug 04, 2010 9:36 pm

disco_barred wrote:
zanda wrote:
audrey hepburn wrote:The client was not a Muslim but rather a Caucasian.


This sentence made me chuckle. :)


That sentence made my eyes bleed profusely.


Image

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Grizz
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Re: How much does appearance matter?

Postby Grizz » Wed Aug 04, 2010 9:40 pm

goosey wrote: Secondly, I think that going into a profession that is pretty much based on holding up principles and values and then sacrificing your own in order to get there is a bit hypocritical.


Do NOT go to LS if this is what you think the law is.

LjakW
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Re: How much does appearance matter?

Postby LjakW » Wed Aug 04, 2010 10:00 pm

Anyone on this thread watch Little Mosque on the Prairie? I imagine the OP as Rayyan—just more religious and as a lawyer instead of doctor.

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romothesavior
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Re: How much does appearance matter?

Postby romothesavior » Thu Aug 05, 2010 10:26 am

audrey hepburn wrote:The client was not a Muslim but rather a Caucasian.


Christian
Muslim
Caucasian
Jew

Test: Which one of these terms is not like the others?

d34d9823
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Re: How much does appearance matter?

Postby d34d9823 » Thu Aug 05, 2010 10:27 am

romothesavior wrote:
audrey hepburn wrote:The client was not a Muslim but rather a Caucasian.


Christian
Muslim
Caucasian
Jew

Test: Which one of these terms is not like the others?

Muslim - it's the only one not welcome in the US.

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romothesavior
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Re: How much does appearance matter?

Postby romothesavior » Thu Aug 05, 2010 10:29 am

d34dluk3 wrote:
romothesavior wrote:
audrey hepburn wrote:The client was not a Muslim but rather a Caucasian.


Christian
Muslim
Caucasian
Jew

Test: Which one of these terms is not like the others?

Muslim - it's the only one not welcome in the US.


Not sure if I'm allowed to laugh at this joke or not. But I want to, cause its funny.

ViIIager
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Re: How much does appearance matter?

Postby ViIIager » Thu Aug 05, 2010 10:38 am

d34dluk3 wrote:
romothesavior wrote:
audrey hepburn wrote:The client was not a Muslim but rather a Caucasian.


Christian
Muslim
Caucasian
Jew

Test: Which one of these terms is not like the others?

Muslim - it's the only one not welcome in the US.


Are you kidding me? We open them with welcome arms. Just look at NYC and its upcoming mosque!

/end derailment attempt, though I think this thread has had some lovely digressions already

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Bosque
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Re: How much does appearance matter?

Postby Bosque » Thu Aug 05, 2010 10:47 am

ViIIager wrote:
d34dluk3 wrote:
romothesavior wrote:
audrey hepburn wrote:The client was not a Muslim but rather a Caucasian.


Christian
Muslim
Caucasian
Jew

Test: Which one of these terms is not like the others?

Muslim - it's the only one not welcome in the US.


Are you kidding me? We open them with welcome arms. Just look at NYC and its upcoming mosque!

/end derailment attempt, though I think this thread has had some lovely digressions already


Funny violent Freudian slip is funny.

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MC Southstar
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Re: How much does appearance matter?

Postby MC Southstar » Thu Aug 05, 2010 10:51 am

sundance95 wrote:
jks289 wrote:if someone won't hire you based on your belief or apparel, you don't want to work for them anyway.


+1^10


1^10 is 1, genius.

Still not as bad as the person who thinks not Caucasian means "not from my trailer park".

ViIIager
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Re: How much does appearance matter?

Postby ViIIager » Thu Aug 05, 2010 11:41 am

Bosque wrote:Funny violent Freudian slip is funny.


Well F me. That actually works, in a Palin-esqe sort of sense. I'm just not sure NYC is the best example for that one.

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worldtraveler
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Re: How much does appearance matter?

Postby worldtraveler » Thu Aug 05, 2010 11:54 am

bwv812 wrote:
goosey wrote:The fact that you equate having a maid or live in nanny with wanting "the kind of life" which supports abuse of personal servants is a bit offensive.

Nannies in any location aren't "making much"

Most importantly of all though, just because abuse of servants is rampant, it does not mean all servants are abused, if you would like to call a maid or nanny a "servant" to begin with. My entire family back home has maids and nannies--to the extent that when they go on vacation, the nanny goes with them. Not only do they get paid decently, they are bought houses, clothing for their children if they have them, furniture, and their weddings are paid for (including buying gold for the bride)---assumptions based on what you have read about can't be used to apply blanket statement or make judgements


I'm not equating having a maid or nanny with abuse of servants. Of course it is possible to have a nanny or servant and treat them well (though I'm not sure how taking nannies with you on vacation is treating them well: presumably they still perform nanny-related duties while on "vacation").

The fact remains, however, that the abuse of foreign servants (and workers in general) in the gulf is widespread (see the recent nyt article: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/02/world/middleeast/02domestic.html). It is also true that they are paid much less there than they would be here, especially after you consider placement fees and the like.

I only brought it up because I find it interesting that "the kind of life" you want is one that includes personal drivers, maids, and nannies nannies. To me, it seems like these highly stratified societies where these are common are exactly those which would be least receptive to the idea of female lawyers, though perhaps I should not be surprised since this same sort of stratification seems somewhat inherent (even if unintentional) in your religious belief that persons of the opposite sex should not shake hands.


Have you ever lived in any of these places you're criticizing? The Middle East has lots of female attorneys. There are also plenty of women in other high level professions, such as engineering and medicine. Stop criticizing someone's life choices just because you read a news article.

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Bosque
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Re: How much does appearance matter?

Postby Bosque » Thu Aug 05, 2010 12:44 pm

worldtraveler wrote:
Have you ever lived in any of these places you're criticizing? The Middle East has lots of female attorneys. There are also plenty of women in other high level professions, such as engineering and medicine. Stop criticizing someone's life choices just because you read a news article.



But.... but the New York Times is the fount of all knowledge! If the print it, it HAS to be true. Or it immediately becomes true if it was not before.

You are telling me we should get our news from -gasp!- MORE than one source!??!? Blasphemy!

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Grizz
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Re: How much does appearance matter?

Postby Grizz » Thu Aug 05, 2010 12:46 pm

Bosque wrote:
worldtraveler wrote:
Have you ever lived in any of these places you're criticizing? The Middle East has lots of female attorneys. There are also plenty of women in other high level professions, such as engineering and medicine. Stop criticizing someone's life choices just because you read a news article.



But.... but the New York Times is the fount of all knowledge! If the print it, it HAS to be true. Or it immediately becomes true if it was not before.

You are telling me we should get our news from -gasp!- MORE than one source!??!? Blasphemy!


The best idea is just using Wikipedia articles to become an instant expert on whatever you're talking about.

d34d9823
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Re: How much does appearance matter?

Postby d34d9823 » Thu Aug 05, 2010 12:47 pm

rad law wrote:The best idea is just using Wikipedia articles to become an instant expert on whatever you're talking about.

[citation needed]




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