How much does appearance matter?

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NYAssociate
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Re: How much does appearance matter?

Postby NYAssociate » Sat Jul 31, 2010 12:41 pm

So basically someone posted a non-offensive pic and he got banned? Seems like a power trip.

12262010
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Re: How much does appearance matter?

Postby 12262010 » Sat Jul 31, 2010 12:45 pm

NYAssociate wrote:So basically someone posted a non-offensive pic and he got banned? Seems like a power trip.


welcome to TLS.

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dresden doll
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Re: How much does appearance matter?

Postby dresden doll » Sat Jul 31, 2010 12:52 pm

I don't think he was banned for pic itself; rather, he was banned for sniping after being told not to post pics anymore.

Anyhow.

At the risk of sounding insensitive, I'd like to note that sometimes 'when in Rome' principle ought to be followed. If I moved to Saudi Arabia and was asked to cover my head/body, I'd do so despite the fact that I personally take issues with both the practice and rationale behind it.

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goosey
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Re: How much does appearance matter?

Postby goosey » Sat Jul 31, 2010 12:55 pm

rayiner wrote:I'm not sure what sort of advice you want. You don't seem willing to compromise your mode of dress, so are you just asking if it will hold you back at American firms? Yes. What can you do with that information? Especially ITE when the don't even need a conscious reason to ding you.

I'd look to NGOs that do international work.



yeah I think I asked to gauge how much or how little people expect to hold me back.


I am learning arabic and learning islamic law as well to help me stand out for middle eastern firms. I think, after reading opinions, that my best bet is overseas.

Pearalegal
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Re: How much does appearance matter?

Postby Pearalegal » Sat Jul 31, 2010 1:28 pm

For what its worth, the idea that a smart and ambitious young person would need to move across the world to find more acceptance and career opportunities depresses me. I think you might have mentioned that you'd personally be happier there, though, so I guess its not that big of a deal.

HOWEVER, have you ever spent a significant amount of time in the middle east? Seems like a big jump to say, I'm going to an American law school with as risky career footing as BLS (that usually centers completely in New York City), but would be happier practicing/living in the Middle East even though I've only started learning Arabic and Islamic law. Makes me (perhaps totally unfairly) think that career path hasn't been completely thought out and perhaps borders on a little idealistic.

If you're this wary about working in the US and adapting to things such as handshakes, have you thought about postponing law school for a year and maybe try to get a masters or at least live abroad to get a sense of where you'd be happiest? I mean, this is your life we're talking about.

dakatz
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Re: How much does appearance matter?

Postby dakatz » Sat Jul 31, 2010 1:44 pm

Pearalegal wrote:For what its worth, the idea that a smart and ambitious young person would need to move across the world to find more acceptance and career opportunities depresses me. I think you might have mentioned that you'd personally be happier there, though, so I guess its not that big of a deal.

HOWEVER, have you ever spent a significant amount of time in the middle east? Seems like a big jump to say, I'm going to an American law school with as risky career footing as BLS (that usually centers completely in New York City), but would be happier practicing/living in the Middle East even though I've only started learning Arabic and Islamic law. Makes me (perhaps totally unfairly) think that career path hasn't been completely thought out and perhaps borders on a little idealistic.

If you're this wary about working in the US and adapting to things such as handshakes, have you thought about postponing law school for a year and maybe try to get a masters or at least live abroad to get a sense of where you'd be happiest? I mean, this is your life we're talking about.


I absolutely second this point. The same held true when OP said she had to turn down Fordham (which I recall was the school she REALLY wanted to go to), since her beliefs do not allow her to take on debt. I remember being quite depressed at hearing that. Just as I am depressed now at hearing that she is considering moving across the world because of a simple handshake. Again, I hate even edging on anything resembling a religious debate, but I know as well as everyone else on here including OP that this is not why those rules were created. They weren't written up to make devout followers give up their dreams and hurt their career opportunities.

NYAssociate
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Re: How much does appearance matter?

Postby NYAssociate » Sat Jul 31, 2010 1:49 pm

dresden doll wrote:I don't think he was banned for pic itself; rather, he was banned for sniping after being told not to post pics anymore.


Sounds like a person who can't take a little bloody nose/takes himself too seriously.

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RVP11
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Re: How much does appearance matter?

Postby RVP11 » Sat Jul 31, 2010 1:50 pm

ITT: enormous (way too much) respect for religion holding someone back from having a much easier time with her legal career in the United States
Last edited by RVP11 on Sat Jul 31, 2010 1:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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goosey
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Re: How much does appearance matter?

Postby goosey » Sat Jul 31, 2010 1:52 pm

Pearalegal wrote:For what its worth, the idea that a smart and ambitious young person would need to move across the world to find more acceptance and career opportunities depresses me. I think you might have mentioned that you'd personally be happier there, though, so I guess its not that big of a deal.

HOWEVER, have you ever spent a significant amount of time in the middle east? Seems like a big jump to say, I'm going to an American law school with as risky career footing as BLS (that usually centers completely in New York City), but would be happier practicing/living in the Middle East even though I've only started learning Arabic and Islamic law. Makes me (perhaps totally unfairly) think that career path hasn't been completely thought out and perhaps borders on a little idealistic.

If you're this wary about working in the US and adapting to things such as handshakes, have you thought about postponing law school for a year and maybe try to get a masters or at least live abroad to get a sense of where you'd be happiest? I mean, this is your life we're talking about.


I am very, very unsure about what I'd like to do after law school--at times I've even thought about working a few years and then opening a bakery. I would have loved to go into academia but coming from bls, that is not at all possible. I've thought about working for women's rights in the middle east, studying islamic finance in detail and doing something along those lines---I am all over the place. If I stay here, Ive also considered Trusts & Estates, which I will have to do more research on.

I am pretty comfortable living there. My brother lives in Dubai and I have spent a very good amount of time there as well as in Pakistan (which, though not technically the Middle East, is a Muslim country nonetheless)--I actually prefer life there overall because it makes live-in maids/nannies a much bigger possibility. I want a family *and* a career--I know women do that all the time in the states, but I'd like to have a live in nanny and maid to make it a bit easier (laugh if u must). My fiance also wants to move overseas because the salary and benefits for American educated professionals is amazing (90k tax free starting, plus stipends for car/driver/villa is pretty standard). My uncle lived/worked in Saudi Arabia for nearly a decade---the company paid for everything from their children's schooling (private schools in America) to their car. When their dishwasher broke, they would make a phone call and instead of a repair man, and entire new dishwasher would be brought in. Its a pretty good deal. Plus, I am more comfortable with the culture and stuff. Certain things annoy the hell out of me over there, but there will be issues any where I live.

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Re: How much does appearance matter?

Postby Pearalegal » Sat Jul 31, 2010 1:58 pm

goosey wrote:I am very, very unsure about what I'd like to do after law school--at times I've even thought about working a few years and then opening a bakery. I would have loved to go into academia but coming from bls, that is not at all possible. I've thought about working for women's rights in the middle east, studying islamic finance in detail and doing something along those lines---I am all over the place. If I stay here, Ive also considered Trusts & Estates, which I will have to do more research on.

I am pretty comfortable living there. My brother lives in Dubai and I have spent a very good amount of time there as well as in Pakistan (which, though not technically the Middle East, is a Muslim country nonetheless)--I actually prefer life there overall because it makes live-in maids/nannies a much bigger possibility. I want a family *and* a career--I know women do that all the time in the states, but I'd like to have a live in nanny and maid to make it a bit easier (laugh if u must). My fiance also wants to move overseas because the salary and benefits for American educated professionals is amazing (90k tax free starting, plus stipends for car/driver/villa is pretty standard). My uncle lived/worked in Saudi Arabia for nearly a decade---the company paid for everything from their children's schooling (private schools in America) to their car. When their dishwasher broke, they would make a phone call and instead of a repair man, and entire new dishwasher would be brought in. Its a pretty good deal. Plus, I am more comfortable with the culture and stuff. Certain things annoy the hell out of me over there, but there will be issues any where I live.


Ok, then WHY ON EARTH are you going to law school right now? My head is literally spinning. I almost never give this advice, because its not what you asked, but all of this is making me extremely uneasy. Seems like your entire life is in flux right now, without even a clear idea of what continent you want to end up on. Also, as someone who studied it, Arabic is hard as heck, as I'm sure you know. You're not going to become fluent in three years while also studying law....which I would imagine is required. I was curious and looked at firms in the middle east, and all are listed as fluent. Maybe studying Arabic for awhile while you and your fiance get your plans worked out would be a good idea?

Also, after all the raving about dishwashers in Saudi Arabia....can't help but point out that doesn't Saudi Arabia currently not allow female attorneys to enter courtrooms? I thought there was recently talk of a bill that would let them in, but nothing had passed yet. I'm sorry, just all of this is blowing my mind. Even if the bill recently passed and went through and such, have you thought about that impact on your career?

Edit to apologize if any of this came off offensive, I'm just really confused about why you're set on going to law school when everything you said points to your career and life goals being in constant flux.

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TheLuckyOne
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Re: How much does appearance matter?

Postby TheLuckyOne » Sat Jul 31, 2010 2:09 pm

goosey wrote:
Pearalegal wrote:For what its worth, the idea that a smart and ambitious young person would need to move across the world to find more acceptance and career opportunities depresses me. I think you might have mentioned that you'd personally be happier there, though, so I guess its not that big of a deal.

HOWEVER, have you ever spent a significant amount of time in the middle east? Seems like a big jump to say, I'm going to an American law school with as risky career footing as BLS (that usually centers completely in New York City), but would be happier practicing/living in the Middle East even though I've only started learning Arabic and Islamic law. Makes me (perhaps totally unfairly) think that career path hasn't been completely thought out and perhaps borders on a little idealistic.

If you're this wary about working in the US and adapting to things such as handshakes, have you thought about postponing law school for a year and maybe try to get a masters or at least live abroad to get a sense of where you'd be happiest? I mean, this is your life we're talking about.


I am very, very unsure about what I'd like to do after law school--at times I've even thought about working a few years and then opening a bakery. I would have loved to go into academia but coming from bls, that is not at all possible. I've thought about working for women's rights in the middle east, studying islamic finance in detail and doing something along those lines---I am all over the place. If I stay here, Ive also considered Trusts & Estates, which I will have to do more research on.

I am pretty comfortable living there. My brother lives in Dubai and I have spent a very good amount of time there as well as in Pakistan (which, though not technically the Middle East, is a Muslim country nonetheless)--I actually prefer life there overall because it makes live-in maids/nannies a much bigger possibility. I want a family *and* a career--I know women do that all the time in the states, but I'd like to have a live in nanny and maid to make it a bit easier (laugh if u must). My fiance also wants to move overseas because the salary and benefits for American educated professionals is amazing (90k tax free starting, plus stipends for car/driver/villa is pretty standard). My uncle lived/worked in Saudi Arabia for nearly a decade---the company paid for everything from their children's schooling (private schools in America) to their car. When their dishwasher broke, they would make a phone call and instead of a repair man, and entire new dishwasher would be brought in. Its a pretty good deal. Plus, I am more comfortable with the culture and stuff. Certain things annoy the hell out of me over there, but there will be issues any where I live.


There are certain Muslim countries that are very beautiful and rich. So you can have a very nice life there.

My only concern is that it may be as tough to get real legal job there as it is in the US. What I mean here is that you're a woman and this may be an issue there. From what I know, Muslims don't like to deal with women when it comes to business matters. If I were you, I would research, talk to people with similar experience, seriously weight all pros and cons and only then make a decision.

I dunno, it's a tough situation and no one, but you can resolve it since you're the only one who knows what you desire.

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goosey
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Re: How much does appearance matter?

Postby goosey » Sat Jul 31, 2010 2:15 pm

Pearalegal wrote:
Ok, then WHY ON EARTH are you going to law school right now? My head is literally spinning. I almost never give this advice, because its not what you asked, but all of this is making me extremely uneasy. Seems like your entire life is in flux right now, without even a clear idea of what continent you want to end up on. Also, as someone who studied it, Arabic is hard as heck, as I'm sure you know. You're not going to become fluent in three years while also studying law....which I would imagine is required. I was curious and looked at firms in the middle east, and all are listed as fluent. Maybe studying Arabic for awhile while you and your fiance get your plans worked out would be a good idea?

Also, after all the raving about dishwashers in Saudi Arabia....can't help but point out that doesn't Saudi Arabia currently not allow female attorneys to enter courtrooms? I thought there was recently talk of a bill that would let them in, but nothing had passed yet. I'm sorry, just all of this is blowing my mind. Even if the bill recently passed and went through and such, have you thought about that impact on your career?

Edit to apologize if any of this came off offensive, I'm just really confused about why you're set on going to law school when everything you said points to your career and life goals being in constant flux.


sorry i confused you, I dont want to live in saudi---I want to go to either doha or one of the emirates. Ive studied arabic before. I am fluent in urdu--arabic and urdu have the same alphabet and share thousands of the same words, so its significantly less difficult for me than the average person given my background.

I know I sound all over the place and like my plans are in flux, but thats basically how it will always be---whether I go to school now or 5 yrs from now. The only thing I need to decide (and sometime this year) is which continent I want to be on initially. My thoughts are that I should probably focus on working in the states and trying to be transferred to a middle eastern country at a later point, since I have seen that a lot of those firms hire laterally.

The other thing that needs to be decided is exactly what I want to do--I imagine this will become an easier once I am *in* law school and see what different areas are really like.

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Duralex
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Re: How much does appearance matter?

Postby Duralex » Sat Jul 31, 2010 2:29 pm

As others have pointed out, attending BLS and then "only working in the States" initially almost certainly means working in or around NYC (or perhaps as others have mentioned in a concentrated Muslim community like the one in Dearborn. I wouldn't know.) So bear that in mind as you weigh your options.

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Re: How much does appearance matter?

Postby 270910 » Sat Jul 31, 2010 2:42 pm

YCrevolution wrote:
Ty Webb wrote:
YCrevolution wrote:Ty Webb: Images are not necessary to communicate your point nor are the images you are using all that relevant.


In your opinion.

I know that internet overlording is a job that requires a really cool iron fist and all, but Sneijder more accurate reflects my point than any words could.

The iron fist has given you a timeout.


:roll:

You do realize that (temp) banning people and call them out for this shit is probably more disruptive than this shit is in the first place, neh :lol:

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YCrevolution
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Re: How much does appearance matter?

Postby YCrevolution » Sat Jul 31, 2010 2:45 pm

..

270910
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Re: How much does appearance matter?

Postby 270910 » Sat Jul 31, 2010 2:46 pm

*shrug* I responded when I saw that post, not when I was done reading the thread.

Azmatt
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Re: How much does appearance matter?

Postby Azmatt » Sat Jul 31, 2010 3:13 pm

I'm curious how quickly this thread would get out of hand without the admins and their hammers... :)

Yes, appearance matters and yes actions matter. However, you can mitigate much of this. First, you kick ass at school and show everyone that you have what it takes. If possible, you could transfer for better opportunity. Without checking myself, I imagine BLS tuition is comparable to better schools in the area. You're just gonna have to kill it that much more to be able to overcome others perceptions.

I find it funny how people liken bowing when greeting someone in Japan to touching if your religion/personal morality is against it. Because, that's completely the same thing... :roll:

The op shouldn't have to adhere to the masses if she's not causing disruption. The fact is that you're going to see opposition. You're going to have to decide if it's what you REALLY want. The good news is that if you REALLY want that means you have some inner-strength to go after what you want despite the odds. People that change perceptions and create their own place in the world will do that. You may or may not be that person. So, that's something you have to find for yourself.... Smiling helps a lot. Even in the face of ignorance.



With that said... This is more to those who could use a little more perspective.. lets just look at a playful contrast...

--ImageRemoved--

--ImageRemoved--

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Duralex
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Re: How much does appearance matter?

Postby Duralex » Sat Jul 31, 2010 3:17 pm

Seen a nun in full habit a courtroom lately? Or a boardroom? The woman in the second picture does not look businesslike. She looks like a fairy tale princess.

I don't think you're making the point you think you're making.

The picture of the Muslim women's business attire upthread was much more to the point.

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Re: How much does appearance matter?

Postby Azmatt » Sat Jul 31, 2010 3:38 pm

and that wasn't the point I was trying to make...


Did you read the post?

"With that said... This is more to those who could use a little more perspective.. lets just look at a playful contrast... "

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Duralex
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Re: How much does appearance matter?

Postby Duralex » Sat Jul 31, 2010 4:21 pm

Obviously I read your post. Enlighten us then: what is the point of your "playful contrast?" This thread is not about the status of hijab (and/or the more specific garment mentioned by the OP) in the occident in general, and some perceived infelicity there vs. the status of nuns' habit, it's a much more specific circumstance of a traditionally observant young woman trying to figure out if the American legal world is for her. How are superficial comparisons of nuns and Muslim-friendly runway fashion relevant? She's not a nun. She won't be wearing a habit. Or, presumably, that black and gold get-up. Or, better yet, how about the whole idea that as a female attorney in America it's not advantageous to project a cloistered, exotic, delicate or vulnerable image, or one that so overtly signals personal subservience to male authority (regardless of whether those are or are not the valences that such a performance of identity would have in its proper context.) So who cares if a nuns habit looks kind of like hijab?
Last edited by Duralex on Sat Jul 31, 2010 4:54 pm, edited 6 times in total.

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Cavalier
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Re: How much does appearance matter?

Postby Cavalier » Sat Jul 31, 2010 4:33 pm

Has this thread resulted in a flame war? If so, may I join?

xyzzzzzzzz
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Re: How much does appearance matter?

Postby xyzzzzzzzz » Sat Jul 31, 2010 4:44 pm

.
Last edited by xyzzzzzzzz on Wed Aug 04, 2010 9:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Azmatt
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Re: How much does appearance matter?

Postby Azmatt » Sat Jul 31, 2010 4:58 pm

Duralex wrote:Obviously I read your post. Enlighten us then: what is the point of your "playful contrast?" This thread is not about the status of hijab in the occident in general, and some perceived infelicity there vs. the status of nuns' habit, it's a much more specific circumstance of a traditionally observant young woman trying to figure out if the American legal world is for her. How are superficial comparisons of nuns and Muslim-friendly runway fashion relevant? She's not a nun. She won't be wearing a habit. Nevermind the fact that the whole idea is that as a female attorney in America it's not advantageous to project a cloistered, delicate and vulnerable image, or one that signals such overt subservience to male authority (regardless of whether those are or are not the valences that such a performance of identity would have in its proper context.)


What a nice convoluted response. It is still completely irrelevant from my reference to the images. As I stated, in the original post, it's a contrast... between a seemingly benign image of nuns and a image of the abayah, who many Americans will equate with religious oppression. They're relevant because they're symbols. This thread is all about how she will be perceived. I even stated how the pics were for those who could use a little more perspective. The juxtaposition is there for a reason. It wasn't for the op, but it was a subtle hint to those in the thread who can't get past their own ideal of the Muslim world...

"cloistered, delicate and vulnerable image, or one that signals such overt subservience to male authority"

Nice. Because, we all know that women only have to deal with that paradigm in the Muslim world.... :roll: As I stated, she's going to have her struggles, but it's a matter of her character to overcome that. There might be strong opposition, but that alone shouldn't be reason to stop or change who she is.

For the OP: There's a woman in the Northwestern Law School video who is wearing an Abayah during class. It's very brief, but I doubt you're not alone in your decision..

ogurty
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Re: How much does appearance matter?

Postby ogurty » Sat Jul 31, 2010 5:03 pm

I'm prepared for the inevitability of being flamed for saying this, but...

There is an enormous Muslim community in the United States. These people have legal problems and need legal advice. This is what most people refer to as midlaw and shitlaw, but it absolutely exists, and the field (it seems to me) is begging for talented lawyers who speak fluent Urdu, passable Arabic, and (apparently) perfect, eloquent English. These aren't really dime-a-dozen skills. And this niche will be completely understanding of Muslim rules of modesty.

Going to BLS all but rules out OCI anyway, so I think OP's singular situation could very much help her get a leg up on her classmates and land a niche position in NYC's legal community. The bigger question seems to be whether that niche is desirable for her because - as I mentioned earlier - it IS the target of much derision in online law student communities, and it will be her primary source of job opportunitites.

dakatz
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Re: How much does appearance matter?

Postby dakatz » Sat Jul 31, 2010 5:03 pm

Azmatt wrote:
Duralex wrote:Obviously I read your post. Enlighten us then: what is the point of your "playful contrast?" This thread is not about the status of hijab in the occident in general, and some perceived infelicity there vs. the status of nuns' habit, it's a much more specific circumstance of a traditionally observant young woman trying to figure out if the American legal world is for her. How are superficial comparisons of nuns and Muslim-friendly runway fashion relevant? She's not a nun. She won't be wearing a habit. Nevermind the fact that the whole idea is that as a female attorney in America it's not advantageous to project a cloistered, delicate and vulnerable image, or one that signals such overt subservience to male authority (regardless of whether those are or are not the valences that such a performance of identity would have in its proper context.)


What a nice convoluted response. It is still completely irrelevant from my reference to the images. As I stated, in the original post, it's a contrast... between a seemingly benign image of nuns and a image of the abayah, who many Americans will equate with religious oppression. They're relevant because they're symbols. This thread is all about how she will be perceived. I even stated how the pics were for those who could use a little more perspective. The juxtaposition is there for a reason. It wasn't for the op, but it was a subtle hint to those in the thread who can't get past their own ideal of the Muslim world...

"cloistered, delicate and vulnerable image, or one that signals such overt subservience to male authority"

Nice. Because, we all know that women only have to deal with that paradigm in the Muslim world.... :roll: As I stated, she's going to have her struggles, but it's a matter of her character to overcome that. There might be strong opposition, but that alone shouldn't be reason to stop or change who she is.

For the OP: There's a woman in the Northwestern Law School video who is wearing an Abayah during class. It's very brief, but I doubt you're not alone in your decision..


I think most people seemed to agree that the outfit wasn't a huge issue. We see them fairly often here in the US now. It was the handshake thing that seemed like a far greater impediment.




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