How much does appearance matter?

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hiromoto45
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Re: How much does appearance matter?

Postby hiromoto45 » Fri Jul 30, 2010 11:36 pm

Solution to handshake issue: Bow? May not be your custom, but if you bow when introduced to clients or partners, they assume it is apart of your culture and just go along with it.

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bwv812
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Re: How much does appearance matter?

Postby bwv812 » Sat Jul 31, 2010 12:21 am

.

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Borhas
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Re: How much does appearance matter?

Postby Borhas » Sat Jul 31, 2010 12:37 am

wear gloves

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Kohinoor
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Re: How much does appearance matter?

Postby Kohinoor » Sat Jul 31, 2010 1:00 am

como wrote:I think there will be opportunities in many interviews to address your dress and your values. Once they ask "tell me about yourself," or something to that effect, just say something like "you probably noticed that I'm dressed differently than most of your other interviewees." Then turn a confident spin on your identity, your interests, your skills, etc.

This way, you come off as confident, authentic, and candid. It helps to be able to play it off in a loose and somewhat playful manner too. Obviously, you don't want to sacrifice your values. But interviewers generally like people who are honest and have a degree of self-depricating humor. Try to use it to your advantage and they will think you're great and your appearance wont matter.

Not to rain on parades, but the first thing in my screening interviews is a handshake. Same with callbacks. Even if it's rarer for women, OP is going to run into this issue before she gets to give her pitch.

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Kohinoor
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Re: How much does appearance matter?

Postby Kohinoor » Sat Jul 31, 2010 1:01 am

Borhas wrote:wear gloves

If "as long as its above my clothes" worked, this thread wouldn't exist.

Baylan
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Re: How much does appearance matter?

Postby Baylan » Sat Jul 31, 2010 1:09 am

Credited is to move to Dearborn, MI, and open up a solo shop.

NYAssociate
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Re: How much does appearance matter?

Postby NYAssociate » Sat Jul 31, 2010 9:30 am

Headscarves are perfectly fine (at least where I work). Handshakes... get used to it. And if you're a man, you better have a good handshake. A fishy one is the best way to ruin a first impression.

And I know I know... why do we have to be superficial? It's human nature. We rely more on what isn't said than what is, and this causes us to rely on non-verbal cues. Inability to maintain eye-contact, poor handshakes, poor posture (i.e., exhibiting lack of self-confidence) are all cues that make us sub-consciously lose credibility with you.

Same thing will happen when you're trying to get a girl (or if you're a girl, trying to get a boy). Have a spine, ditch some of your overt neuroses, and believe in yourself.

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doyleoil
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Re: How much does appearance matter?

Postby doyleoil » Sat Jul 31, 2010 9:41 am

NYAssociate wrote:Headscarves are perfectly fine (at least where I work). Handshakes... get used to it. And if you're a man, you better have a good handshake. A fishy one is the best way to ruin a first impression.

And I know I know... why do we have to be superficial? It's human nature. We rely more on what isn't said than what is, and this causes us to rely on non-verbal cues. Inability to maintain eye-contact, poor handshakes, poor posture (i.e., exhibiting lack of self-confidence) are all cues that make us sub-consciously lose credibility with you.

Same thing will happen when you're trying to get a girl (or if you're a girl, trying to get a boy). Have a spine, ditch some of your overt neuroses, and believe in yourself.


Fuckin-a man. ALPHA!!!!!!!

NYAssociate
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Re: How much does appearance matter?

Postby NYAssociate » Sat Jul 31, 2010 9:54 am

doyleoil wrote:
NYAssociate wrote:Headscarves are perfectly fine (at least where I work). Handshakes... get used to it. And if you're a man, you better have a good handshake. A fishy one is the best way to ruin a first impression.

And I know I know... why do we have to be superficial? It's human nature. We rely more on what isn't said than what is, and this causes us to rely on non-verbal cues. Inability to maintain eye-contact, poor handshakes, poor posture (i.e., exhibiting lack of self-confidence) are all cues that make us sub-consciously lose credibility with you.

Same thing will happen when you're trying to get a girl (or if you're a girl, trying to get a boy). Have a spine, ditch some of your overt neuroses, and believe in yourself.


Fuckin-a man. ALPHA!!!!!!!


This made me smile. I was actually thinking that as I typed the original post.

There are definitely some firms where an alpha male would thrive. I won't name them, though. It's somewhat of a touchy issue for me, as I consider myself split between alpha and beta, but some people here are naturals.

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TheLuckyOne
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Re: How much does appearance matter?

Postby TheLuckyOne » Sat Jul 31, 2010 11:19 am

It seems to me that a lot of people here are completely delusional.

OP, let's be realistic..

You go to a TTT school (I'm not being offensive here, just pointing out the facts). A lot of people with "traditional" beliefs are wary of going there because it dramatically limits their job prospects. Now, add to it your clothes and beliefs. Don't be delusional, it WILL extremely limit your career options. And it's not that partners are insensitive prejudiced bastards, it's that every firm thinks of their clients. Your religion WILL raise issues with a good portion of them.

So, since you're not willing to sacrifice your religious beliefs for the sake of career, there are 2 best options for you:

1) get a job at a firm that is focused on Muslim clients. It's actually a great option for you since you will never feel uncomfortable
2) go to work to Middle East
Of course, there is the 3rd option of trying to get a job with a firm that works primarily with American/European clients, however, that may be very tough and may bring a lot of unpleasant situations in your life.

Bottom line, the more sacrifices you make, the easier your life will be in terms of career in the US.

It's always your choice. Pick whatever you are more comfortable with. Good luck! :D

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worldtraveler
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Re: How much does appearance matter?

Postby worldtraveler » Sat Jul 31, 2010 11:35 am

OP do you speak Arabic? If so, there would be quite a few opportunities to work in the Middle East, where you might be more comfortable anyway.

Also, are you looking to work for a firm? I don't know a lot about firm hiring, but I doubt you would have nearly as many problems working in public interest, such as for a non-profit or NGO. There are also a lot of opportunities for that kind of work in the Middle East or North Africa.

I actually have a couple suits similar to the ones you're talking about. I'm not Muslim and I don't wear a headscarf, but I just like the look of a longer jacket because I'm insanely tall. I don't think you'd have any sort of a problem dressed in a suit like that. I've been working abroad this summer and a lot of female attorneys wear an abaya or something similar. I don't think it would be much of a problem, if any, outside the USA.

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dresden doll
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Re: How much does appearance matter?

Postby dresden doll » Sat Jul 31, 2010 11:45 am

TheLuckyOne wrote:OP, let's be realistic..

You go to a TTT school (I'm not being offensive here, just pointing out the facts). A lot of people with "traditional" beliefs are wary of going there because it dramatically limits their job prospects.


How is this at all relevant? Do you mean to say that OP was more inclined towards BLS on account of her religion? That strikes me as ridiculous. I'd wager OP's beliefs had nothing to do with her school choice.

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Ty Webb
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Re: How much does appearance matter?

Postby Ty Webb » Sat Jul 31, 2010 11:55 am

dresden doll wrote:
TheLuckyOne wrote:OP, let's be realistic..

You go to a TTT school (I'm not being offensive here, just pointing out the facts). A lot of people with "traditional" beliefs are wary of going there because it dramatically limits their job prospects.


How is this at all relevant? Do you mean to say that OP was more inclined towards BLS on account of her religion? That strikes me as ridiculous. I'd wager OP's beliefs had nothing to do with her school choice.


The point.

You missed it.

--ImageRemoved--

Edit: Reading and trying to synthesize the next sentence: "Now, add to it your clothes and beliefs," might have helped you, Dresden Doll.

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dominkay
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Re: How much does appearance matter?

Postby dominkay » Sat Jul 31, 2010 12:00 pm

dresden doll wrote:
TheLuckyOne wrote:OP, let's be realistic..

You go to a TTT school (I'm not being offensive here, just pointing out the facts). A lot of people with "traditional" beliefs are wary of going there because it dramatically limits their job prospects.


How is this at all relevant? Do you mean to say that OP was more inclined towards BLS on account of her religion? That strikes me as ridiculous. I'd wager OP's beliefs had nothing to do with her school choice.


Earlier in the thread, someone mentioned that it did. She apparently choose a full ride at BLS over a higher ranked school because of the Islamic prohibition against interest.

But I don't think that is why it's relevant. It's relevant because going to BLS already limits her options a whole lot, and the appearance issue would obviously limit them further.

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Ty Webb
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Re: How much does appearance matter?

Postby Ty Webb » Sat Jul 31, 2010 12:04 pm

Ty Webb wrote:
dresden doll wrote:
TheLuckyOne wrote:OP, let's be realistic..

You go to a TTT school (I'm not being offensive here, just pointing out the facts). A lot of people with "traditional" beliefs are wary of going there because it dramatically limits their job prospects.


How is this at all relevant? Do you mean to say that OP was more inclined towards BLS on account of her religion? That strikes me as ridiculous. I'd wager OP's beliefs had nothing to do with her school choice.



Edit: Reading and trying to synthesize the next sentence: "Now, add to it your clothes and beliefs," might have helped you, Dresden Doll.


--ImageRemoved--

dominkay wrote:
dresden doll wrote:
TheLuckyOne wrote:OP, let's be realistic..

You go to a TTT school (I'm not being offensive here, just pointing out the facts). A lot of people with "traditional" beliefs are wary of going there because it dramatically limits their job prospects.




Earlier in the thread, someone mentioned that it did. She apparently choose a full ride at BLS over a higher ranked school because of the Islamic prohibition against interest.

But I don't think that is why it's relevant. It's relevant because going to BLS already limits her options a whole lot, and the appearance issue would obviously limit them further.


Image

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YCrevolution
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Re: How much does appearance matter?

Postby YCrevolution » Sat Jul 31, 2010 12:06 pm

..

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dresden doll
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Re: How much does appearance matter?

Postby dresden doll » Sat Jul 31, 2010 12:07 pm

Ty Webb wrote:
dresden doll wrote:
TheLuckyOne wrote:OP, let's be realistic..

You go to a TTT school (I'm not being offensive here, just pointing out the facts). A lot of people with "traditional" beliefs are wary of going there because it dramatically limits their job prospects.


How is this at all relevant? Do you mean to say that OP was more inclined towards BLS on account of her religion? That strikes me as ridiculous. I'd wager OP's beliefs had nothing to do with her school choice.


The point.

You missed it.

--ImageRemoved--

Edit: Reading and trying to synthesize the next sentence: "Now, add to it your clothes and beliefs," might have helped you, Dresden Doll.


:roll: I'm all good with RC, thanks.

My pointing out a page ago that BLS degree isn't really portable should have cued you in on the fact that I'm aware OP isn't going to be attending an elite institution. I just don't see how it was at all necessary to remark that a lot of people with traditional beliefs are wary of attending BLS. If it doesn't imply that OP's non-traditional beliefs somehow made her less concerned with such risks, it's entirely irrelevant.

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Ty Webb
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Re: How much does appearance matter?

Postby Ty Webb » Sat Jul 31, 2010 12:08 pm

YCrevolution wrote:Ty Webb: Images are not necessary to communicate your point nor are the images you are using all that relevant.


In your opinion.

I know that internet overlording is a job that requires a really cool iron fist and all, but Sneijder more accurate reflects my point than any words could.

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YCrevolution
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Re: How much does appearance matter?

Postby YCrevolution » Sat Jul 31, 2010 12:09 pm

..

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worldtraveler
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Re: How much does appearance matter?

Postby worldtraveler » Sat Jul 31, 2010 12:11 pm

YCrevolution wrote:
Ty Webb wrote:
YCrevolution wrote:Ty Webb: Images are not necessary to communicate your point nor are the images you are using all that relevant.


In your opinion.

I know that internet overlording is a job that requires a really cool iron fist and all, but Sneijder more accurate reflects my point than any words could.

The iron fist has given you a timeout.


I approve of this iron fist.

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dominkay
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Re: How much does appearance matter?

Postby dominkay » Sat Jul 31, 2010 12:12 pm

dresden doll wrote::roll: I'm all good with RC, thanks.

My pointing out a page ago that BLS degree isn't really portable should have cued you in on the fact that I'm aware OP isn't going to be attending an elite institution. I just don't see how it was at all necessary to remark that a lot of people with traditional beliefs are wary of attending BLS. If it doesn't imply that OP's non-traditional beliefs somehow made her less concerned with such risks, it's entirely irrelevant.


To be fair, I think the OP's beliefs are extremely traditional. The tradition is just not Western.

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TheLuckyOne
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Re: How much does appearance matter?

Postby TheLuckyOne » Sat Jul 31, 2010 12:13 pm

dresden doll wrote:
My pointing out a page ago that BLS degree isn't really portable should have cued you in on the fact that I'm aware OP isn't going to be attending an elite institution. I just don't see how it was at all necessary to remark that a lot of people with traditional beliefs are wary of attending BLS. If it doesn't imply that OP's non-traditional beliefs somehow made her less concerned with such risks, it's entirely irrelevant.


Dresden, you did miss my point. Lower raked school limits options in general. Low ranked school + nontraditional attire will limit options even further. A lot of posters here seemed to be way too optimistic. My point was to make OP realize that her situation is not as good as it may seem to be. This is a big risk and she should adjust her expectations accordingly.

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dresden doll
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Re: How much does appearance matter?

Postby dresden doll » Sat Jul 31, 2010 12:14 pm

YCrevolution wrote:
Ty Webb wrote:
YCrevolution wrote:Ty Webb: Images are not necessary to communicate your point nor are the images you are using all that relevant.


In your opinion.

I know that internet overlording is a job that requires a really cool iron fist and all, but Sneijder more accurate reflects my point than any words could.

The iron fist has given you a timeout.


:lol:

Seriously, though, I just don't get why it was necessary to say that people with traditional beliefs are wary of attending BLS; saying that attending BLS would limit OP's options is more than adequate to convey the point.

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crazycanuck
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Re: How much does appearance matter?

Postby crazycanuck » Sat Jul 31, 2010 12:17 pm

YCrevolution wrote:Ty Webb: Images are not necessary to communicate your point nor are the images you are using all that relevant.


I love it when you lay down the law, it gets me all hot and sweaty.

Back to the OP, at the big 4 accounting firm I work for there is a girl who is in a full abaya. She's kind of the poster girl for diversity and is in all the recruitment videos.

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rayiner
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Re: How much does appearance matter?

Postby rayiner » Sat Jul 31, 2010 12:24 pm

I'm not sure what sort of advice you want. You don't seem willing to compromise your mode of dress, so are you just asking if it will hold you back at American firms? Yes. What can you do with that information? Especially ITE when the don't even need a conscious reason to ding you.

I'd look to NGOs that do international work.




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