Apparently UK firms are more prestige-obsessed than us

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Re: Apparently UK firms are more prestige-obsessed than us

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Jul 31, 2010 10:24 am

booyakasha wrote:
dresden doll wrote:However so that may be, I know of median CLS students credibly bidding on these firms for the upcoming OCI. Seriously considering them for my own bidlist, in fact.


srsly? seems a bit ambitious for median.


According to last years figures median would indeed be ambitious for these firms.

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Re: Apparently UK firms are more prestige-obsessed than us

Postby NYAssociate » Sat Jul 31, 2010 10:33 am

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Re: Apparently UK firms are more prestige-obsessed than us

Postby sophie316 » Sat Jul 31, 2010 10:38 am

NYAssociate wrote:Is it ambitious? A&O NY, Freshfields NY, Linklaters NY, and Clifford Chance NY are not at all that selective.

(And also, you should just avoid all of them if you can)


Could you expand on that at all? As a Brit who is probably eventually going to end up back on this side of the Atlantic(not sure of the time frame yet) I'm looking at them pretty closely so I'm interested in any further info.

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Re: Apparently UK firms are more prestige-obsessed than us

Postby como » Sat Jul 31, 2010 11:00 am

NYAssociate wrote:Is it ambitious? A&O NY, Freshfields NY, Linklaters NY, and Clifford Chance NY are not at all that selective.

(And also, you should just avoid all of them if you can)


Agreed. I think median at CLS would be competitive at all except maybe CC. A&O and Linklaters are probably least selective.

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Re: Apparently UK firms are more prestige-obsessed than us

Postby NYAssociate » Sat Jul 31, 2010 11:01 am

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Re: Apparently UK firms are more prestige-obsessed than us

Postby 12262010 » Sat Jul 31, 2010 11:08 am

NYAssociate wrote:Is it ambitious? A&O NY, Freshfields NY, Linklaters NY, and Clifford Chance NY are not at all that selective.

(And also, you should just avoid all of them if you can)


idk... maybe I'm overly paranoid about TE.

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Re: Apparently UK firms are more prestige-obsessed than us

Postby NYAssociate » Sat Jul 31, 2010 11:19 am

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Re: Apparently UK firms are more prestige-obsessed than us

Postby dresden doll » Sat Jul 31, 2010 11:23 am

NYAssociate wrote:Probably a good MO, but it's not like there are that many safer places to bid on with those grades.


Just wanted to chime in to say that, IIRC, Freshfields has posted a B+ cutoff on the Simplicity page related to its job opening. I have no idea how serious they are about enforcing it, of course.

I would be curious to know why MC firms aren't a good idea for those looking to remain in the US.

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Re: Apparently UK firms are more prestige-obsessed than us

Postby abl » Sat Jul 31, 2010 11:43 am

It's not really possible to compare Glasgow LLB students with Georgetown JD students; they're too different degrees (and the students getting them are pretty notably different as well, with the average Georgetown JD likely being about five years older than the average Glasgow LLB).

With regards to comparing undergrads, as someone who's studied at both US and UK universities, I'd say that (for undergraduate degrees), Oxbridge would fall somewhere in the top 10 US colleges and universities, with the other top UK schools the above poster listed falling somewhere in the top 75 or so (universities and liberal arts colleges). That's not meant as a knock against UK universities; if anything, it's impressive for how small the UK is and how much more money the US higher education system has. This should all be taken with a huge grain of salt, as it's pretty difficult to compare undergraduate degrees between the US and UK either, as a top US degree generally indicates the breadth of that student's knowledge, whereas a top UK degree indicates the depth of that student's knowledge. We might disagree as to which is more valuable, but I think everyone will agree that they're pretty fundamentally different. Additionally, it's worth noting that most of the UK schools over-perform somewhat on their scholarship and research production relative to either the caliber of their students or their funding.

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Re: Apparently UK firms are more prestige-obsessed than us

Postby como » Sat Jul 31, 2010 12:14 pm

dresden doll wrote:
NYAssociate wrote:Probably a good MO, but it's not like there are that many safer places to bid on with those grades.


Just wanted to chime in to say that, IIRC, Freshfields has posted a B+ cutoff on the Simplicity page related to its job opening. I have no idea how serious they are about enforcing it, of course.

I would be curious to know why MC firms aren't a good idea for those looking to remain in the US.


The thing about MC firms that makes them more unpredictable than others is their emphasis on international connections/experiences/skills. A bilingual/trilingual candidate with median grades can hold their own against a top candidate from the US who has never left the country. One of my friends is working 1L summer at a MC firm and he has some of the worst grades in the class. However, he can speak at least 3 languages and is a pretty awesome guy, not to mention he's lived and studied all over the place.

I think MC firms are sketchy because their reputation in the US hangs in the balance. Some, like White, are in a tenuous position financially. Others, like Freshfields, haven't really established themselves in NYC yet. They're solid firms, no doubt, but NYC is run by the big boys like SC/Crav/DPW. The NYC offices of the whiteshoes are the nerve centers of their entire operations. The NYC offices of MC firms are what you would expect -- international satellite offices of London-based firms.

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Re: Apparently UK firms are more prestige-obsessed than us

Postby dresden doll » Sat Jul 31, 2010 12:18 pm

como wrote:
The thing about MC firms that makes them more unpredictable than others is their emphasis on international connections/experiences/skills. A bilingual/trilingual candidate with median grades can hold their own against a top candidate from the US who has never left the country. One of my friends is working 1L summer at a MC firm and he has some of the worst grades in the class. However, he can speak at least 3 languages and is a pretty awesome guy, not to mention he's lived and studied all over the place.

I think MC firms are sketchy because their reputation in the US hangs in the balance. Some, like White, are in a tenuous position financially. Others, like Freshfields, haven't really established themselves in NYC yet. They're solid firms, no doubt, but NYC is run by the big boys like SC/Crav/DPW. The NYC offices of the whiteshoes are the nerve center of their entire operation. The NYC offices of MC firms are what you would expect -- international satellite offices of London-based firms.



Dear como, please transfer your knowledge to my brain. Kthanx.

Seriously, though, that's insanely useful. I'm international and have been looking at these firms although I'm not sure that my native language would be particularly helpful for them.

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Re: Apparently UK firms are more prestige-obsessed than us

Postby byunbee » Sat Jul 31, 2010 12:22 pm

dresden doll wrote:Seriously, though, that's insanely useful. I'm international and have been looking at these firms although I'm not sure that my native language would be particularly helpful for them.


I'm just as in the dark about this as you, but I would imagine speaking the language of a major European economy such as French or German would help. I would also think that Chinese or Japanese would be useful as well.

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Re: Apparently UK firms are more prestige-obsessed than us

Postby como » Sat Jul 31, 2010 12:23 pm

dresden doll wrote:
como wrote:
The thing about MC firms that makes them more unpredictable than others is their emphasis on international connections/experiences/skills. A bilingual/trilingual candidate with median grades can hold their own against a top candidate from the US who has never left the country. One of my friends is working 1L summer at a MC firm and he has some of the worst grades in the class. However, he can speak at least 3 languages and is a pretty awesome guy, not to mention he's lived and studied all over the place.

I think MC firms are sketchy because their reputation in the US hangs in the balance. Some, like White, are in a tenuous position financially. Others, like Freshfields, haven't really established themselves in NYC yet. They're solid firms, no doubt, but NYC is run by the big boys like SC/Crav/DPW. The NYC offices of the whiteshoes are the nerve center of their entire operation. The NYC offices of MC firms are what you would expect -- international satellite offices of London-based firms.



Dear como, please transfer your knowledge to my brain. Kthanx.

Seriously, though, that's insanely useful. I'm international and have been looking at these firms although I'm not sure that my native language would be particularly helpful for them.


It can only help. I think you would be a great candidate at any of them. I've got a phone meeting with someone at one of the MC firms on Monday/Tuesday, so I can pm you later with some details re: that firm's expectations/culture. Also, check out some of the big US firms with extensive international offices. I'm thinking Dewey & LeBoeuf could be a good match.

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Re: Apparently UK firms are more prestige-obsessed than us

Postby dresden doll » Sat Jul 31, 2010 12:38 pm

como wrote:It can only help. I think you would be a great candidate at any of them. I've got a phone meeting with someone at one of the MC firms on Monday/Tuesday, so I can pm you later with some details re: that firm's expectations/culture. Also, check out some of the big US firms with extensive international offices. I'm thinking Dewey & LeBoeuf could be a good match.


Thanks, como. A pm would be appreciated. I think I am going to try my luck with them, even though I don't think my language would be particularly useful for them.

To whoever said that speaking a language like French or German would help: I agree. However, I'm from Eastern Europe. I was once rather proficient in Italian; however, after I moved to US, I no longer had the occasion to speak it and have consequently lost much of the knowledge.

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Re: Apparently UK firms are more prestige-obsessed than us

Postby como » Sat Jul 31, 2010 12:47 pm

dresden doll wrote:
como wrote:It can only help. I think you would be a great candidate at any of them. I've got a phone meeting with someone at one of the MC firms on Monday/Tuesday, so I can pm you later with some details re: that firm's expectations/culture. Also, check out some of the big US firms with extensive international offices. I'm thinking Dewey & LeBoeuf could be a good match.


Thanks, como. A pm would be appreciated. I think I am going to try my luck with them, even though I don't think my language would be particularly useful for them.

To whoever said that speaking a language like French or German would help: I agree. However, I'm from Eastern Europe. I was once rather proficient in Italian; however, after I moved to US, I no longer had the occasion to speak it and have consequently lost much of the knowledge.


Regardless of whether your particular language skills are in high-demand, I think you have a sufficiently interesting international background to get you some callbacks and beyond. Obviously, coveted languages never hurt, but the necessary condition appears to be an ability to work as part of an international team.

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Re: Apparently UK firms are more prestige-obsessed than us

Postby dresden doll » Sat Jul 31, 2010 12:55 pm

como wrote:
Regardless of whether your particular language skills are in high-demand, I think you have a sufficiently interesting international background to get you some callbacks and beyond. Obviously, coveted languages never hurt, but the necessary condition appears to be an ability to work as part of an international team.


Oh, that condition I'm okay with. I've moved around sufficiently to be pretty good with adjusting to new environments/people.

Good luck with the interview!

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Re: Apparently UK firms are more prestige-obsessed than us

Postby bwv812 » Sat Jul 31, 2010 6:42 pm

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Re: Apparently UK firms are more prestige-obsessed than us

Postby dresden doll » Sun Aug 01, 2010 12:05 pm

bwv812 wrote:
como wrote:
NYAssociate wrote:Is it ambitious? A&O NY, Freshfields NY, Linklaters NY, and Clifford Chance NY are not at all that selective.

(And also, you should just avoid all of them if you can)


Agreed. I think median at CLS would be competitive at all except maybe CC. A&O and Linklaters are probably least selective.


The median GPA of GULC students hired at CC NYC is ever-so-slightly below median. A&O and Freshfields are right around top-third, and Linklaters is in between.


Has your school released most recent data in re: minimum/maximum GPA? I've obtained that info for 2007, and it's less than useful in that it touches on a period of time when anyone out of Chi could have gotten a job. Those minimum GPAs listed strike me as highly unrealistic.

FWIW, in 2007, A and O hired slightly below the median people. Other firms weren't included on the list.

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Re: Apparently UK firms are more prestige-obsessed than us

Postby RVP11 » Sun Aug 01, 2010 12:48 pm

dresden doll wrote:
como wrote:
The thing about MC firms that makes them more unpredictable than others is their emphasis on international connections/experiences/skills. A bilingual/trilingual candidate with median grades can hold their own against a top candidate from the US who has never left the country. One of my friends is working 1L summer at a MC firm and he has some of the worst grades in the class. However, he can speak at least 3 languages and is a pretty awesome guy, not to mention he's lived and studied all over the place.

I think MC firms are sketchy because their reputation in the US hangs in the balance. Some, like White, are in a tenuous position financially. Others, like Freshfields, haven't really established themselves in NYC yet. They're solid firms, no doubt, but NYC is run by the big boys like SC/Crav/DPW. The NYC offices of the whiteshoes are the nerve center of their entire operation. The NYC offices of MC firms are what you would expect -- international satellite offices of London-based firms.



Dear como, please transfer your knowledge to my brain. Kthanx.

Seriously, though, that's insanely useful. I'm international and have been looking at these firms although I'm not sure that my native language would be particularly helpful for them.


His knowledge seems to include the nugget that White (& Case) is a Magic Circle firm. Do you still want it?

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Re: Apparently UK firms are more prestige-obsessed than us

Postby como » Sun Aug 01, 2010 1:16 pm

RVP11 wrote:
dresden doll wrote:
como wrote:
The thing about MC firms that makes them more unpredictable than others is their emphasis on international connections/experiences/skills. A bilingual/trilingual candidate with median grades can hold their own against a top candidate from the US who has never left the country. One of my friends is working 1L summer at a MC firm and he has some of the worst grades in the class. However, he can speak at least 3 languages and is a pretty awesome guy, not to mention he's lived and studied all over the place.

I think MC firms are sketchy because their reputation in the US hangs in the balance. Some, like White, are in a tenuous position financially. Others, like Freshfields, haven't really established themselves in NYC yet. They're solid firms, no doubt, but NYC is run by the big boys like SC/Crav/DPW. The NYC offices of the whiteshoes are the nerve center of their entire operation. The NYC offices of MC firms are what you would expect -- international satellite offices of London-based firms.



Dear como, please transfer your knowledge to my brain. Kthanx.

Seriously, though, that's insanely useful. I'm international and have been looking at these firms although I'm not sure that my native language would be particularly helpful for them.


His knowledge seems to include the nugget that White (& Case) is a Magic Circle firm. Do you still want it?


Yea, my mistake, b.

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Re: Apparently UK firms are more prestige-obsessed than us

Postby bwv812 » Sun Aug 01, 2010 6:07 pm

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Re: Apparently UK firms are more prestige-obsessed than us

Postby dresden doll » Mon Aug 02, 2010 5:26 pm

bwv812 wrote:GULC releases very, very little in terms of data. Hiring (and not offer or callback) medians over a 11 year period are all they release, with counsellors supposedly filling you in on trends and the like during personal meetings.


:| I sincerely don't understand why OCS tends to be so secretive about the data across the board. Aren't they concerned that people will screw themselves out of jobs by overreaching?

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Re: Apparently UK firms are more prestige-obsessed than us

Postby NYAssociate » Mon Aug 02, 2010 5:29 pm

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Re: Apparently UK firms are more prestige-obsessed than us

Postby dresden doll » Mon Aug 02, 2010 5:32 pm

NYAssociate wrote:
dresden doll wrote:
bwv812 wrote:GULC releases very, very little in terms of data. Hiring (and not offer or callback) medians over a 11 year period are all they release, with counsellors supposedly filling you in on trends and the like during personal meetings.


:| I sincerely don't understand why OCS tends to be so secretive about the data across the board. Aren't they concerned that people will screw themselves out of jobs by overreaching?


Probably also concerned that people will post the data here, as has already been done with respect to other schools.


That's a fair point. People have posted numbers of unique employers here already so it's conceivable that such data would leak as well. Still, it seems to me - from my admittedly selfish and self-interested perspective - that the value of helping people compose informed bidlists outweighs the drawbacks.

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Re: Apparently UK firms are more prestige-obsessed than us

Postby 270910 » Mon Aug 02, 2010 5:34 pm

dresden doll wrote:
NYAssociate wrote:
dresden doll wrote:
bwv812 wrote:GULC releases very, very little in terms of data. Hiring (and not offer or callback) medians over a 11 year period are all they release, with counsellors supposedly filling you in on trends and the like during personal meetings.


:| I sincerely don't understand why OCS tends to be so secretive about the data across the board. Aren't they concerned that people will screw themselves out of jobs by overreaching?


Probably also concerned that people will post the data here, as has already been done with respect to other schools.


That's a fair point. People have posted numbers of unique employers here already so it's conceivable that such data would leak as well. Still, it seems to me - from my admittedly selfish and self-interested perspective - that the value of helping people compose informed bidlists outweighs the drawbacks.


My office cites a few reasons: Employers don't want students to know with particularity, because they fear it would make for an arms race. There are privacy issues, since if a firm is only doing a small number of interviews or callbacks it could out identities fairly easily. They don't want info to get public. They also feel any particular slice of data could be misleading, which certainly comes across as parental but what can you do.




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