Resume question re published decision

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joq888
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Resume question re published decision

Postby joq888 » Wed Jul 28, 2010 4:26 pm

This summer I've been interning for a judge who's encouraged me to write several decisions. I was just told that one will be published in a very well respected law journal. I know I can write that I drafted decisions on my resume, but is there any graceful way to add this publication to the blurb as well? obviously, his name is on it and there was editing - maybe say drafted a decision which went on to be published in yadda yadda yadda?

270910
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Re: Resume question re published decision

Postby 270910 » Wed Jul 28, 2010 5:18 pm

No. And you should be careful about putting, or at least the wording, of drafting the opinion on your resume. It is extremely controversial in some circles that even clerks - elite law graduates - get to draft opinions. Calling attention to the fact that you did it as an intern will seriously turn some people off.

Also, to my knowledge, it is highly unorthodox for a judicial decision to "published in a . . . law journal." You don't have to elaborate, but unless there's just something completely new I've never heard of in the academic world I think you may be getting mixed up.

Renzo
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Re: Resume question re published decision

Postby Renzo » Wed Jul 28, 2010 5:30 pm

1) you're confusing us. Opinions are published by courts, and are reported in reporters, but are not published in journals. Either it's not being published in a Journal, or it's not an Opinon

2) Opinions are the work of the judge, even if you wrote every sentence. He may be allowing you to use a draft as a writing sample, but you cannot take credit for the opinion, even if it's identical to your draft.

joq888
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Re: Resume question re published decision

Postby joq888 » Wed Jul 28, 2010 5:39 pm

jeez guys - i'm not trying to take credit! even he said i can send it out as a writing sample as long as I say it was the draft decision and edited

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Matthies
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Re: Resume question re published decision

Postby Matthies » Wed Jul 28, 2010 5:46 pm

The two above posts are correct. Judical opinions are really the one thing you can't claim as your own, or even really should say you drafted it. Its considerd the judges work. Even if the judge tells you ots OK, the people getting your writing sample won't feel the same way. Find something else.

Renzo
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Re: Resume question re published decision

Postby Renzo » Wed Jul 28, 2010 6:06 pm

Matthies wrote:The two above posts are correct. Judical opinions are really the one thing you can't claim as your own, or even really should say you drafted it. Its considerd the judges work. Even if the judge tells you ots OK, the people getting your writing sample won't feel the same way. Find something else.

I wouldn't go that far. If the judge says it's ok, it's ok.

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Matthies
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Re: Resume question re published decision

Postby Matthies » Wed Jul 28, 2010 6:17 pm

Renzo wrote:
Matthies wrote:The two above posts are correct. Judical opinions are really the one thing you can't claim as your own, or even really should say you drafted it. Its considerd the judges work. Even if the judge tells you ots OK, the people getting your writing sample won't feel the same way. Find something else.

I wouldn't go that far. If the judge says it's ok, it's ok.


Its OK for the judge, but the judge is not the one getting the writing sample. Who the determiner of if its OK or not is the person that gets it and says, YIKES.

If you’re clerking for a judge, it’s usually very bad form to submit a court opinion as your writing sample. Even if you did write the entire opinion, it has the judge’s name on it, not yours. Moreover, some employers may think that you’re disclosing too much about the judge’s work habits. A much better course of action would be to convert that judicial opinion into a memorandum to the judge, with a suggested draft judicial opinion. Ask the judge as well what they would recommend. After all, if your interview goes well, the employer will be calling the judge for a reference about your work habits, research, and legal writing abilities.


http://www.americanbar.org/groups/law_students.html (good artcile on writing samples)

joq888
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Re: Resume question re published decision

Postby joq888 » Wed Jul 28, 2010 6:21 pm

"yikes" how?

Renzo
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Re: Resume question re published decision

Postby Renzo » Wed Jul 28, 2010 6:28 pm

Matthies wrote:
If you’re clerking for a judge, it’s usually very bad form to submit a court opinion as your writing sample. Even if you did write the entire opinion, it has the judge’s name on it, not yours. Moreover, some employers may think that you’re disclosing too much about the judge’s work habits. A much better course of action would be to convert that judicial opinion into a memorandum to the judge, with a suggested draft judicial opinion. Ask the judge as well what they would recommend. After all, if your interview goes well, the employer will be calling the judge for a reference about your work habits, research, and legal writing abilities.


But the OP says he/she did this, and the judge said use it. I suppose if you're really paranoid, add a heading that says memorandum and a sentence introducing it as a draft opinion, so the TTTT prof who wrote that article won't frown at you.

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Matthies
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Re: Resume question re published decision

Postby Matthies » Wed Jul 28, 2010 6:34 pm

Renzo wrote:
Matthies wrote:
If you’re clerking for a judge, it’s usually very bad form to submit a court opinion as your writing sample. Even if you did write the entire opinion, it has the judge’s name on it, not yours. Moreover, some employers may think that you’re disclosing too much about the judge’s work habits. A much better course of action would be to convert that judicial opinion into a memorandum to the judge, with a suggested draft judicial opinion. Ask the judge as well what they would recommend. After all, if your interview goes well, the employer will be calling the judge for a reference about your work habits, research, and legal writing abilities.


But the OP says he/she did this, and the judge said use it. I suppose if you're really paranoid, add a heading that says memorandum and a sentence introducing it as a draft opinion, so the TTTT prof who wrote that article won't frown at you.


Again, we are not concerned about what the judge thinks, trust me recuiters won't like seeing a judical opinion as a wriying sample, its just bad form even if it comes with a little sticky note attached saying the Judge said this was OK kthxbi. Also how will it look when or if they copy paste your daft opinion into google and up pops the exact same opinion on lexis. If you want to risk it fine, but bad idea all around. Submit something you wrote not sowemthing people don't normally try to submit as thier own.

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como
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Re: Resume question re published decision

Postby como » Wed Jul 28, 2010 7:28 pm

Matthies wrote:
Renzo wrote:
Matthies wrote:
If you’re clerking for a judge, it’s usually very bad form to submit a court opinion as your writing sample. Even if you did write the entire opinion, it has the judge’s name on it, not yours. Moreover, some employers may think that you’re disclosing too much about the judge’s work habits. A much better course of action would be to convert that judicial opinion into a memorandum to the judge, with a suggested draft judicial opinion. Ask the judge as well what they would recommend. After all, if your interview goes well, the employer will be calling the judge for a reference about your work habits, research, and legal writing abilities.


But the OP says he/she did this, and the judge said use it. I suppose if you're really paranoid, add a heading that says memorandum and a sentence introducing it as a draft opinion, so the TTTT prof who wrote that article won't frown at you.


Again, we are not concerned about what the judge thinks, trust me recuiters won't like seeing a judical opinion as a wriying sample, its just bad form even if it comes with a little sticky note attached saying the Judge said this was OK kthxbi. Also how will it look when or if they copy paste your daft opinion into google and up pops the exact same opinion on lexis. If you want to risk it fine, but bad idea all around. Submit something you wrote not sowemthing people don't normally try to submit as thier own.


I have never heard this before. My judge and his two clerks both said I should use my drafts as writing samples. Why would an employer not want that? The general consensus seems to be that it's fine.

Anonymous User
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Re: Resume question re published decision

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Jul 29, 2010 9:02 am

como wrote:
I have never heard this before. My judge and his two clerks both said I should use my drafts as writing samples. Why would an employer not want that? The general consensus seems to be that it's fine.


+1. all the current clerks i work with and all the clerks i saw outgoing last year picked out a favorite order or two that they had drafted and got permission to anonymize it for use as a writing sample. just edit out all the identifying info and attach a cover page saying its an order you drafted. there's no reason for anyone to be uncomfortable with this and the TTTT professor suggesting otherwise is doing a disservice.

that said, i wouldn't try to list a reported decision as a 'publication.'

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Re: Resume question re published decision

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Jul 29, 2010 9:13 am

Agree with Mathies. The COA judge I worked for last year wouldn't read draft opinions as writing samples (or at least he directed his clerks not to). I don't understand what people don't get about "generally accepted practices." Even if 75% (or even 90%) of people receiving your writing sample think its ok, the others will basically trash your application.

We had this same discussion over 2pg resumes. It may be ok in some circles, but that's not the point. There are a number of people looking at your job apps that will discard them, or at least highly frown on them.

Just use something that is not edited and not controversial. Not hard.

CanadianWolf
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Re: Resume question re published decision

Postby CanadianWolf » Thu Jul 29, 2010 9:24 am

Using an edited opinion signed by a judge as one's writing sample may raise ethical issues in the minds of some potential employers since it seems as if you are claiming the judge's work product as your own. And it would probably be unwise to submit unedited, unsigned drafts of a published opinion because that can mislead readers as to the court's reasoning when compared to the published opinion. Although unedited drafts of an unpublished opinion may raise fewer concerns.
Matthies' advice seems to be the safer & wiser guidance.

270910
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Re: Resume question re published decision

Postby 270910 » Thu Jul 29, 2010 9:57 am

Anonymous User wrote:Agree with Mathies. The COA judge I worked for last year wouldn't read draft opinions as writing samples (or at least he directed his clerks not to). I don't understand what people don't get about "generally accepted practices." Even if 75% (or even 90%) of people receiving your writing sample think its ok, the others will basically trash your application.

We had this same discussion over 2pg resumes. It may be ok in some circles, but that's not the point. There are a number of people looking at your job apps that will discard them, or at least highly frown on them.

Just use something that is not edited and not controversial. Not hard.


+1

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como
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Re: Resume question re published decision

Postby como » Thu Jul 29, 2010 10:15 am

What about a bench memo? It isn't written "by" the judge at all, but rather it is written to the judge. It's no different than a predictive memo in LRW. Do you think that would be OK by practically all?

I'm not trying to beat a dead horse. I just really don't want to use one of my crappy LRW papers. They contained bizarre issues and they would need a ton of revision.

270910
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Re: Resume question re published decision

Postby 270910 » Thu Jul 29, 2010 10:16 am

como wrote:What about a bench memo? It isn't written "by" the judge at all, but rather it is written to the judge. It's no different than a predictive memo in LRW. Do you think that would be OK by practically all?


Yup. Sounds perfect. Redacting / privacy is still an issue of course, but as long as it's clearly a memo and not an opinion + you have permission it should be fine.
Last edited by 270910 on Thu Jul 29, 2010 10:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

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como
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Re: Resume question re published decision

Postby como » Thu Jul 29, 2010 10:17 am

disco_barred wrote:
como wrote:What about a bench memo? It isn't written "by" the judge at all, but rather it is written to the judge. It's no different than a predictive memo in LRW. Do you think that would be OK by practically all?


Yup. Sounds perfect. Redacting / privacy is still an issue of course, but as long as it's clear a memo and not an opinion + you have permission it should be fine.


Jawesome.

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Matthies
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Re: Resume question re published decision

Postby Matthies » Thu Jul 29, 2010 2:52 pm

como wrote:What about a bench memo? It isn't written "by" the judge at all, but rather it is written to the judge. It's no different than a predictive memo in LRW. Do you think that would be OK by practically all?

I'm not trying to beat a dead horse. I just really don't want to use one of my crappy LRW papers. They contained bizarre issues and they would need a ton of revision.


This would be OK in my view, but this not an opinion published in a reporter with the judges name on it your claiming as your work, which is what i was trying to point out above. Big, big diffrence. Just change the names, facts and get permsion first, something written for the judge that he then uses to form his opion (which you may write as well) is not the same things as the opinion its self.




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