Big firms: How much is personality? How much is grades?

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RVP11
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Re: Big firms: How much is personality? How much is grades?

Postby RVP11 » Thu Jul 29, 2010 6:57 pm

legends159 wrote:From what I hear, grades matter to get a callback, but once you're at the callback stage personality matters more


This really only applies at schools that use 100% lottery.

If a firm's already preselected you then clearly you meet their grade cutoff and/or they like your resume, and the screening interview is going to be all about personality, too.

NYAssociate
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Re: Big firms: How much is personality? How much is grades?

Postby NYAssociate » Fri Jul 30, 2010 5:48 am

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Last edited by NYAssociate on Tue Oct 05, 2010 5:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

NYAssociate
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Re: Big firms: How much is personality? How much is grades?

Postby NYAssociate » Fri Jul 30, 2010 5:51 am

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Last edited by NYAssociate on Tue Oct 05, 2010 5:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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blackacre
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Re: Big firms: How much is personality? How much is grades?

Postby blackacre » Fri Jul 30, 2010 3:42 pm

rando wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I have top grades from a decent school (t30ish) but I'm kind of a shy and socially awkward person? Am I screwed for OCI hiring, especially ITE?


Grades are way more important. That being said, get off the internet, schedule some mock interviews, talk to people etc.
"kind of shy" won't get you shut out. "socially awkward" is way too ambiguous to know. Many (if not most) attorneys are socially awkward. But being reeaaaallly awkward will be a problem.


Wrong. Sure they will get you the interview but employers want to be able to work with you. Have you ever worked together in a stressful situation with a friend? I'm sure you all had disagreements and were frustrated with one another. Can you imagine being in that same environment with someone you didn't like? Sure those grades are important to get an interview but they are not way more important than being likeable.

rando
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Re: Big firms: How much is personality? How much is grades?

Postby rando » Fri Jul 30, 2010 5:00 pm

blackacre wrote:
rando wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I have top grades from a decent school (t30ish) but I'm kind of a shy and socially awkward person? Am I screwed for OCI hiring, especially ITE?


Grades are way more important. That being said, get off the internet, schedule some mock interviews, talk to people etc.
"kind of shy" won't get you shut out. "socially awkward" is way too ambiguous to know. Many (if not most) attorneys are socially awkward. But being reeaaaallly awkward will be a problem.


Wrong. Sure they will get you the interview but employers want to be able to work with you. Have you ever worked together in a stressful situation with a friend? I'm sure you all had disagreements and were frustrated with one another. Can you imagine being in that same environment with someone you didn't like? Sure those grades are important to get an interview but they are not way more important than being likeable.


Try not to comment if you dont have anything useful/correct to contribute.

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poprox
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Re: Big firms: How much is personality? How much is grades?

Postby poprox » Fri Jul 30, 2010 9:58 pm

rando wrote:
blackacre wrote:
rando wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I have top grades from a decent school (t30ish) but I'm kind of a shy and socially awkward person? Am I screwed for OCI hiring, especially ITE?


Grades are way more important. That being said, get off the internet, schedule some mock interviews, talk to people etc.
"kind of shy" won't get you shut out. "socially awkward" is way too ambiguous to know. Many (if not most) attorneys are socially awkward. But being reeaaaallly awkward will be a problem.


Wrong. Sure they will get you the interview but employers want to be able to work with you. Have you ever worked together in a stressful situation with a friend? I'm sure you all had disagreements and were frustrated with one another. Can you imagine being in that same environment with someone you didn't like? Sure those grades are important to get an interview but they are not way more important than being likeable.


Try not to comment if you dont have anything useful/correct to contribute.


...says the managing partner

rando
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Re: Big firms: How much is personality? How much is grades?

Postby rando » Fri Jul 30, 2010 10:27 pm

poprox wrote:
rando wrote:
blackacre wrote:
rando wrote:
Grades are way more important. That being said, get off the internet, schedule some mock interviews, talk to people etc.
"kind of shy" won't get you shut out. "socially awkward" is way too ambiguous to know. Many (if not most) attorneys are socially awkward. But being reeaaaallly awkward will be a problem.


Wrong. Sure they will get you the interview but employers want to be able to work with you. Have you ever worked together in a stressful situation with a friend? I'm sure you all had disagreements and were frustrated with one another. Can you imagine being in that same environment with someone you didn't like? Sure those grades are important to get an interview but they are not way more important than being likeable.


Try not to comment if you dont have anything useful/correct to contribute.


...says the managing partner


You know what? You're right. That was a dick post. To not explain why the poster is incorrect and doesn't know what s/he is talking about.

This thread is referring to personality and "social awkwardness." Whereas above poster was referring to likeability and working with your friends on stressful projects. Believe it or not but not everyone at law firms are friends. Law firms are a business and they choose people who are the most qualified for the job. Grades & school are the number one metrics for associate qualification. Since we are not talking about schools, grades are the issue. That leaves metrics that may disqualify you. e.g. being so socially dysfunctional that you can't get along with someone on a work related project. Qualifier vs. disqualifer.

To illustrate why grades are "way more important" than personality.

First and foremost - there are bundles of lawyers at large law firms that have a grand total of zero personality.

If that doesn't convince you, take hiring from law schools for example. The top of the class all get law firm jobs if they want them, barring any ridiculous social idiosyncrasies. Bottom of the class with A+ winner personalities? umm, not so much. Example too extreme? Median and A+ winner personality? not so much.

Note: The illustration is a generality - I realize at a T6 they may go deeper than median and at a TTT even the top of the class won't get a firm job.

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edcrane
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Re: Big firms: How much is personality? How much is grades?

Postby edcrane » Fri Jul 30, 2010 11:48 pm

rando wrote:You know what? You're right. That was a dick post. To not explain why the poster is incorrect and doesn't know what s/he is talking about.

This thread is referring to personality and "social awkwardness." Whereas above poster was referring to likeability and working with your friends on stressful projects. Believe it or not but not everyone at law firms are friends. Law firms are a business and they choose people who are the most qualified for the job. Grades & school are the number one metrics for associate qualification. Since we are not talking about schools, grades are the issue. That leaves metrics that may disqualify you. e.g. being so socially dysfunctional that you can't get along with someone on a work related project. Qualifier vs. disqualifer.

To illustrate why grades are "way more important" than personality.

First and foremost - there are bundles of lawyers at large law firms that have a grand total of zero personality.

If that doesn't convince you, take hiring from law schools for example. The top of the class all get law firm jobs if they want them, barring any ridiculous social idiosyncrasies. Bottom of the class with A+ winner personalities? umm, not so much. Example too extreme? Median and A+ winner personality? not so much.

Note: The illustration is a generality - I realize at a T6 they may go deeper than median and at a TTT even the top of the class won't get a firm job.


I think this is totally credited at big firms. The test is whether you can potentially work with someone at 2 a.m., not whether you're going to really enjoy his/her company. Many people with high grades and zero personality have tons of offers because they're likely to be competent, if not engaging, attorneys.

In my very limited experience, personality plays a bigger role at boutiques, even those that tend to have high GPA cutoffs.

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como
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Re: Big firms: How much is personality? How much is grades?

Postby como » Fri Jul 30, 2010 11:49 pm

The way I understand it is that law firms essentially auto-admit, consider, or flat-out reject candidates, in much the same way that law schools do.

An auto-admit has the job to lose. At any point in the game, the auto-admit's credentials can be trumped by her personality, comments, appearance, or attitude. However, if the auto-admit cruises through each stage of the interview process carefully, thoughtfully, and without any blunders, she will get an offer. These candidates are the top students at the top schools. They are even more attractive with relevant work experience.

Considered candidates have to sell themselves. Grades become a factor (albeit the largest factor) to consider when deciding among candidates in this range, but a student from a peer school with slightly lower grades might be able to package themselves more effectively than another candidate. When you're in this range of applicants, all bets are off. I know of people with below-median grades for their respective firms getting offers largely on the basis of their interviewing skills.

Rejects are not really considered.




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