0L here--what happens to those that finish below median?

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Matthies
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Re: 0L here--what happens to those that finish below median?

Postby Matthies » Mon Jul 05, 2010 12:03 pm

rad law wrote: Just saying "employed" obfuscates the true nature of hiring from a school, that for many students at less prestigious schools their JD won't make them more employable in any measurable way. And a lot of prospective students don't realize it.



And this obfuscates the true purpose of a school, with is education and granting the JD, its not a placement agency or a replacement for having no clue how to find a job on your own. And a lot of prospective students don't realize this.

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Grizz
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Re: 0L here--what happens to those that finish below median?

Postby Grizz » Mon Jul 05, 2010 12:06 pm

Matthies wrote:
rad law wrote: Just saying "employed" obfuscates the true nature of hiring from a school, that for many students at less prestigious schools their JD won't make them more employable in any measurable way. And a lot of prospective students don't realize it.



And this obfuscates the true purpose of a school, with is education and granting the JD, its not a placement agency or a replacement for having no clue how to find a job on your own. And a lot of prospective students don't realize this.


But with scads more JDs than jobs, many, especially from less prestigious schools will not find legal employment. You can't hustle your way into legal work that doesn't exist.

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Cleareyes
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Re: 0L here--what happens to those that finish below median?

Postby Cleareyes » Mon Jul 05, 2010 12:09 pm

Matthies wrote:
rad law wrote: Just saying "employed" obfuscates the true nature of hiring from a school, that for many students at less prestigious schools their JD won't make them more employable in any measurable way. And a lot of prospective students don't realize it.



And this obfuscates the true purpose of a school, with is education and granting the JD, its not a placement agency or a replacement for having no clue how to find a job on your own. And a lot of prospective students don't realize this.


Actually a lot of schools pitch themselves as, at least in part, placement agencies. In the materials you get from schools urging you to apply/attend they talk about their career service office, their alumni network etc...etc... Now they might not all be effective at that, but since it's part of the service they're selling for a large amount of money, it's not entirely unreasonable to view the school as, at least in part, a placement agency. The fact that the institution is called a school doesn't mean it's limited just to education in the service it provides.

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Matthies
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Re: 0L here--what happens to those that finish below median?

Postby Matthies » Mon Jul 05, 2010 12:13 pm

Cleareyes wrote:
Matthies wrote:
rad law wrote: Just saying "employed" obfuscates the true nature of hiring from a school, that for many students at less prestigious schools their JD won't make them more employable in any measurable way. And a lot of prospective students don't realize it.



And this obfuscates the true purpose of a school, with is education and granting the JD, its not a placement agency or a replacement for having no clue how to find a job on your own. And a lot of prospective students don't realize this.


Actually a lot of schools pitch themselves as, at least in part, placement agencies. In the materials you get from schools urging you to apply/attend they talk about their career service office, their alumni network etc...etc... Now they might not all be effective at that, but since it's part of the service they're selling for a large amount of money, it's not entirely unreasonable to view the school as, at least in part, a placement agency. The fact that the institution is called a school doesn't mean it's limited just to education in the service it provides.


Maybe for thr schools you were looking at! And that is a big part of the problem, OL's come on here and see kids from top law schools geting tons of offers from OCI (well in the past) and think oh, cool, that's how I get a job from Rodger Willims. Um, not its not.

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ResolutePear
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Re: 0L here--what happens to those that finish below median?

Postby ResolutePear » Mon Jul 05, 2010 12:17 pm

rad law wrote:
Burger in a can wrote:
rad law wrote:
Burger in a can wrote:
Well listen, if only 2 students were unemployed 9 months after graduation, that's a hell of a lot better than the hoards of unemployed kids roaming around my undergrad 9 months after they walked the plank. Even if those UC Davis JDs are working at McDonald's, it still could be much worse!


I'm not going in debt and going to school for 3 yrs. to work at McDonalds.

HTH


I was unemployed for over a year, and McDonalds wouldn't hire me because I went to college and graduate school. I had no source of income whatsoever. Given the chance, I would have slit someone's throat for a McDonald's gig. Maybe once you're out of your frat house and daddy has cut off the monthly stipend you'll lose the elitist attitude.

HTH.


I enjoyed the unwarranted assumption about my monthly stipend (nonexistent for years), you miserable piece of shit. How did assumptions on the LSAT work out for you?

This isn't an elitist attitude; the point is if I knew that even after going to law school I had a great shot at McDonalds/Starbucks/retail/etc. I wouldn't go. I'd just try to work at McDonalds/Starbucks/retail/etc. now. Just saying "employed" obfuscates the true nature of hiring from a school, that for many students at less prestigious schools their JD won't make them more employable in any measurable way. And a lot of prospective students don't realize it.


I worked at Burger King and KFC as a Asst. Manager and General Manager, respectively. Now there's a gravy train - 35-60k/yr, 55-70 hour work week, benefits, and you won't starve thanks to their healthy food discount. Oh, and don't let me get started on the prospects of being a CBM (Company Business Manager)/Area Manager - you get a sweet company car! I believe BK was giving a mix of Dodge Chargers and JGCs on top of a 80k salary :D

Although the top is true, out of all the jobs I worked - fast food has to be the worst type of work. I would rather find a job with my UG and use the JD as a foot in the door, and no - I didn't major in Poli. Sci :twisted:

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Matthies
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Re: 0L here--what happens to those that finish below median?

Postby Matthies » Mon Jul 05, 2010 12:23 pm

rad law wrote:
Matthies wrote:
rad law wrote: Just saying "employed" obfuscates the true nature of hiring from a school, that for many students at less prestigious schools their JD won't make them more employable in any measurable way. And a lot of prospective students don't realize it.



And this obfuscates the true purpose of a school, with is education and granting the JD, its not a placement agency or a replacement for having no clue how to find a job on your own. And a lot of prospective students don't realize this.


But with scads more JDs than jobs, many, especially from less prestigious schools will not find legal employment. You can't hustle your way into legal work that doesn't exist.


There are scads more JDs than jobs, hence why looking for a job when you did not get one from school by responding to a want ad or school job posting leads to such a low success rate. Once that job add goes out your likely (at least in my market, to get 100's or resumes).

I know attorneys and firms here who have stopped adverting positions completely because of the overwhelming amount of responses they get, and the fact that people, even though the add says no calls or e-mails, do it anyway. It can be extremely disruptive to the practice and hell on the staff. Hence people turn to what they have allays turned to, the "internal job market" i.e. asking people they know if they know anybody good for the job, putting out an add only as last resort if that does not work.

In the fall we had six 3L's, all without offers, join my Inn of the Court, by graduation all six had job offers from Inn members for jobs no one else knew about because they came from the internal market. Three of those jobs came from firms like Davis , Graham and Stubs, H&H and another big firm in town.

There ARE jobs out there, you just need to know where and how to look and how to find them with the least amount of compeation from others. The pople who do are the ones that get the jobs no one else knew about.

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Cleareyes
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Re: 0L here--what happens to those that finish below median?

Postby Cleareyes » Mon Jul 05, 2010 12:28 pm

Matthies wrote:
Cleareyes wrote:
Actually a lot of schools pitch themselves as, at least in part, placement agencies. In the materials you get from schools urging you to apply/attend they talk about their career service office, their alumni network etc...etc... Now they might not all be effective at that, but since it's part of the service they're selling for a large amount of money, it's not entirely unreasonable to view the school as, at least in part, a placement agency. The fact that the institution is called a school doesn't mean it's limited just to education in the service it provides.


Maybe for thr schools you were looking at! And that is a big part of the problem, OL's come on here and see kids from top law schools geting tons of offers from OCI (well in the past) and think oh, cool, that's how I get a job from Rodger Willims. Um, not its not.



I think most schools pitch themselves this way. The level of service they provide may vary wildly. The career service office at my school is definitely imperfect, but if you are having trouble they will work with you one on one and even make phonecalls on your behalf. I know of grads who didn't have jobs for whatever reason (no-offered, deferred, etc..) who were given individual counseling and lists of alumni at places they might want to work who they were told to contact. This worked out decently well as far as I can tell.

I think the real problem you're talking about is not just about career placement but the general idea that most schools want to pitch themselves as occupying the same niche as the top schools. That's how you get New York Law School charging virtually as much as NYU law, and claiming to provide the same salary outcomes. They want to pitch themselves as a similar product. But they're not. It's not just about career services it's an issue throughout the whole system. People who don't do research end up with a rude awakening. People who do do research end up either not going to lower ranked law school or going while treating it appropriately, realizing that OCI is not likely to be the way they get a job and that their degree will primarily serve to enable them to get a license and, depending on the school, also serve as a decent platform to START the networking process that will hopefully land them a job post graduation.

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Matthies
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Re: 0L here--what happens to those that finish below median?

Postby Matthies » Mon Jul 05, 2010 12:41 pm

Cleareyes wrote:
Matthies wrote:
Cleareyes wrote:
Actually a lot of schools pitch themselves as, at least in part, placement agencies. In the materials you get from schools urging you to apply/attend they talk about their career service office, their alumni network etc...etc... Now they might not all be effective at that, but since it's part of the service they're selling for a large amount of money, it's not entirely unreasonable to view the school as, at least in part, a placement agency. The fact that the institution is called a school doesn't mean it's limited just to education in the service it provides.


Maybe for thr schools you were looking at! And that is a big part of the problem, OL's come on here and see kids from top law schools geting tons of offers from OCI (well in the past) and think oh, cool, that's how I get a job from Rodger Willims. Um, not its not.



I think most schools pitch themselves this way. The level of service they provide may vary wildly. The career service office at my school is definitely imperfect, but if you are having trouble they will work with you one on one and even make phonecalls on your behalf. I know of grads who didn't have jobs for whatever reason (no-offered, deferred, etc..) who were given individual counseling and lists of alumni at places they might want to work who they were told to contact. This worked out decently well as far as I can tell.

I think the real problem you're talking about is not just about career placement but the general idea that most schools want to pitch themselves as occupying the same niche as the top schools. That's how you get New York Law School charging virtually as much as NYU law, and claiming to provide the same salary outcomes. They want to pitch themselves as a similar product. But they're not. It's not just about career services it's an issue throughout the whole system. People who don't do research end up with a rude awakening. People who do do research end up either not going to lower ranked law school or going while treating it appropriately, realizing that OCI is not likely to be the way they get a job and that their degree will primarily serve to enable them to get a license and, depending on the school, also serve as a decent platform to START the networking process that will hopefully land them a job post graduation.



Well i can say my interaction with my carearer services has been very limited, only because I have not needed their services. I agree to some degree with what you're saying about schools marketing themselves as being copeative with hiring ranked schools (although I have not seen a flood of top tier grads or lawyers in my market, so I don't think that happens as much here as larger/more popular market). but I have seen both on TLS, and in my classmates a complete lack of understanding of how you actually find a job, almost all of it premised on three ways of finding jobs that have extremely low success rates outside oft he top schools: OCI, mass mailing, job ads.

I personally don't think going to X school is a bad idea so long as you know what odes/does not work from that school, the problem is, as I see it, prospective law students pretty much use US News, NALP and other stats sources as thier guides, when for the vast majority of the 200 law school out there this is just a really bad place to "do your research."

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Teoeo
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Re: 0L here--what happens to those that finish below median?

Postby Teoeo » Mon Jul 05, 2010 1:02 pm

How do you guys think a MEDIAN student does at say a T14 or T20 compared to a generic T1?

sumus romani
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Re: 0L here--what happens to those that finish below median?

Postby sumus romani » Mon Jul 05, 2010 1:14 pm

Teoeo wrote:How do you guys think a MEDIAN student does at say a T14 or T20 compared to a generic T1?



Even within the T14 there are huge differences. The employment prospects for Y are just very different than for G, or even, say BU.

Schools are not forthcoming with their emplyment data, and we can only reasonably expect the worst possible scenario, which is mass unemployment below median at schools outside the T14.

BaronDetroit
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Re: 0L here--what happens to those that finish below median?

Postby BaronDetroit » Mon Jul 05, 2010 1:16 pm

You still obtain a J.D. and get all the benefits arising out of any ABA accredited law school. There are plentiful and abundant opportunities for such students.

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Grizz
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Re: 0L here--what happens to those that finish below median?

Postby Grizz » Mon Jul 05, 2010 1:27 pm

BaronDetroit wrote:There are plentiful and abundant opportunities for such students.


lol wut

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Matthies
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Re: 0L here--what happens to those that finish below median?

Postby Matthies » Mon Jul 05, 2010 1:32 pm

rad law wrote:
BaronDetroit wrote:There are plentiful and abundant opportunities for such students.


lol wut


That's too postive for eve ME to agree with, I second the wut

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ResolutePear
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Re: 0L here--what happens to those that finish below median?

Postby ResolutePear » Mon Jul 05, 2010 1:33 pm

rad law wrote:
BaronDetroit wrote:There are plentiful and abundant opportunities for such students.


lol wut


I think he's referring to being a paralegal if all else fails.

BaronDetroit
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Re: 0L here--what happens to those that finish below median?

Postby BaronDetroit » Mon Jul 05, 2010 1:43 pm

My basic premise is that any passing student from any ABA accredited school gets the exact same benefits arising out of a J.D.

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ResolutePear
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Re: 0L here--what happens to those that finish below median?

Postby ResolutePear » Mon Jul 05, 2010 1:49 pm

BaronDetroit wrote:My basic premise is that any passing student from any ABA accredited school gets the exact same benefits arising out of a J.D.


In the sense that you can sit at any bar exam in the United States, sure.

I'd be inclined to argue the academic benefits of a HYS vs a Cooley J.D., not to insult the Cooley students - but what are the chances they'll get a federal clerkship? I'm pretty sure theres a seat available to many Yale grads with other Yale grads keeping it warm for them.

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Grizz
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Re: 0L here--what happens to those that finish below median?

Postby Grizz » Mon Jul 05, 2010 1:52 pm

BaronDetroit wrote:My basic premise is that any passing student from any ABA accredited school gets the exact same benefits arising out of a J.D.


Demonstrably untrue.

fenway
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Re: 0L here--what happens to those that finish below median?

Postby fenway » Mon Jul 05, 2010 2:01 pm

we need Career Services rankings

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Matthies
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Re: 0L here--what happens to those that finish below median?

Postby Matthies » Mon Jul 05, 2010 2:07 pm

fenway wrote:we need Career Services rankings


I don't think it would do any good, and hell probabaly do more harm. Outside of the national schools carearer services are entirely local. They know the local market (or should) but not allot abut other out of state markets. This is also one of the reasons I think a national ranking like US news does more harm than good, most schools are not national, and like to think it or not, most secondary markets are not flooded with national grads. It really is regional when you go to a regional school,a nd there is a strong local bias that out of states applicants have to work against if they don't have ties to the market.

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Re: 0L here--what happens to those that finish below median?

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Jul 05, 2010 2:19 pm

Matthies wrote:
most schools are not national, and like to think it or not, most secondary markets are not flooded with national grads. It really is regional when you go to a regional school,a nd there is a strong local bias that out of states applicants have to work against if they don't have ties to the market.


:!:

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D. H2Oman
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Re: 0L here--what happens to those that finish below median?

Postby D. H2Oman » Mon Jul 05, 2010 2:22 pm

--ImageRemoved--

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ResolutePear
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Re: 0L here--what happens to those that finish below median?

Postby ResolutePear » Mon Jul 05, 2010 2:32 pm

D. H2Oman wrote:--ImageRemoved--


Bunny!

I was going to post Sad Keanu, but it was too long :(

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Re: 0L here--what happens to those that finish below median?

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Jul 05, 2010 3:06 pm

rad law wrote:
BaronDetroit wrote:There are plentiful and abundant opportunities for such students.


lol wut


--ImageRemoved--

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Re: 0L here--what happens to those that finish below median?

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Jul 05, 2010 3:14 pm

Image

OP--below median=unemployed, hth.
:wink:

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PKSebben
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Re: 0L here--what happens to those that finish below median?

Postby PKSebben » Mon Jul 05, 2010 3:14 pm

Next person to use the anonymous feature to post an image macro or something off topic in this thread gets banned. No questions asked.




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