About top 23% at Fordham; OCI advice?

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D.Wilde
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Re: About top 23% at Fordham; OCI advice?

Postby D.Wilde » Thu Jul 08, 2010 11:19 am

To bring a fresh and disappointing perspective to the table: BU's career development office has been brutally honest with us. While they have not released any sort of "percentage of C/O 2011 students with SA jobs," they have sent us two emails, each over 2 pages long, basically telling us to expect to be completely shut out from biglaw... Ironically, around 3/4 of the employers who are coming to our OCI are big (or at least "big in Boston") law firms...

It's generally my hypothesis that they're being overly pessimistic so as to avoid being flooded with students claiming that they were told they had a good chance at biglaw offers, but it could be that they're honestly expecting a complete bloodbath...

dk8
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Re: About top 23% at Fordham; OCI advice?

Postby dk8 » Thu Jul 08, 2010 11:31 am

D.Wilde wrote:To bring a fresh and disappointing perspective to the table: BU's career development office has been brutally honest with us. While they have not released any sort of "percentage of C/O 2011 students with SA jobs," they have sent us two emails, each over 2 pages long, basically telling us to expect to be completely shut out from biglaw... Ironically, around 3/4 of the employers who are coming to our OCI are big (or at least "big in Boston") law firms...

It's generally my hypothesis that they're being overly pessimistic so as to avoid being flooded with students claiming that they were told they had a good chance at biglaw offers, but it could be that they're honestly expecting a complete bloodbath...


are you C/O 2012?

That news sucks, but I"d rather be prepared for the absolute worst and have a chance of being pleasantly suprised then to have a school blow smoke up my ass.

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dresden doll
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Re: About top 23% at Fordham; OCI advice?

Postby dresden doll » Thu Jul 08, 2010 11:33 am

dk8 wrote:
D.Wilde wrote:To bring a fresh and disappointing perspective to the table: BU's career development office has been brutally honest with us. While they have not released any sort of "percentage of C/O 2011 students with SA jobs," they have sent us two emails, each over 2 pages long, basically telling us to expect to be completely shut out from biglaw... Ironically, around 3/4 of the employers who are coming to our OCI are big (or at least "big in Boston") law firms...

It's generally my hypothesis that they're being overly pessimistic so as to avoid being flooded with students claiming that they were told they had a good chance at biglaw offers, but it could be that they're honestly expecting a complete bloodbath...


are you C/O 2012?

That news sucks, but I"d rather be prepared for the absolute worst and have a chance of being pleasantly suprised then to have a school blow smoke up my ass.


Agreed. Honesty is best.

D.Wilde
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Re: About top 23% at Fordham; OCI advice?

Postby D.Wilde » Thu Jul 08, 2010 11:38 am

Yes. C/O 2012. Also, I agree with the idea that it's better to be pleasantly surprised than unpleasantly shocked and unemployed. I'm definitely grateful for our CDO's honesty.

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VictoryFord
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Re: About top 23% at Fordham; OCI advice?

Postby VictoryFord » Thu Jul 08, 2010 11:42 am

D.Wilde wrote:Yes. C/O 2012. Also, I agree with the idea that it's better to be pleasantly surprised than unpleasantly shocked and unemployed. I'm definitely grateful for our CDO's honesty.

with the job market the way it is I guess we have to find solace in the little things

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como
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Re: About top 23% at Fordham; OCI advice?

Postby como » Thu Jul 08, 2010 11:58 am

bwv812 wrote:
como wrote:Word from career services is that top 50% of Cornell 2011 got SA, but I've heard it's more like top 30-40%.

I'm thinking that Career Services are starting to count $10/hr summer positions at small-law as SAs.


Could be, although the list of rising 3L "contacts" at firms this summer is still quite impressive ITE. It seems as though there isn't much middle ground. Looks like a lot of V25 or nothing.

Counted 68/~200 on the "contacts" list. I'm not sure if the list is comprehensive, but assuming that it is, that puts about 1/3 of 2011 in biglaw SAs this summer. The word is out on what percentage of that fraction will get offers at the end of the summer. :?
Last edited by como on Thu Jul 08, 2010 12:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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UntoldFortune
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Re: About top 23% at Fordham; OCI advice?

Postby UntoldFortune » Thu Jul 08, 2010 12:05 pm

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Anonymous User
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Re: About top 23% at Fordham; OCI advice?

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Jul 08, 2010 12:08 pm

Anonymous User wrote:That being said, boalt is definitely a different animal than MVP - the SF market is small and east coast recruiters possibly reluctant to make the trip. Boalt, from what I hear, also tends to have fewer student participants in its OCIP than schools like NYU or Columbia, which means 30% of the class being placed might not be as 'bad' as if 30% of the class had been placed at one of the east coast T14s.

Doing a quick, superficial scan of the employers coming to Boalt this year:
Over 40 NYC offices are coming to Boalt for OCI. Other firms may have local offices interviewing for firm-wide placement-- but that would take more digging than I have time for at the moment. Also not sure whether interview slots are up compared to last year (my summer employment uses Corel instead of MS and can't sum the .xls column.

Plenty of other DC and other east coast firms coming (a surprising number from Miami, IMO).

Whether that translates into actual call-backs or offers-- that's a different story. But I do agree with your charaterization of Boalt OCI as a different animal.

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seespotrun
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Re: About top 23% at Fordham; OCI advice?

Postby seespotrun » Thu Jul 08, 2010 12:09 pm

nealric wrote:
You presume that the additional candidate a "Cravath" takes up implies that a lower ranked firm will necessarily make another offer to someone else.


Well, to assume otherwise is to assume that the lower ranked firms will be shrinking their class sizes even more from last summer.

Not really. Firms don't yield protect.

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KMaine
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Re: About top 23% at Fordham; OCI advice?

Postby KMaine » Thu Jul 08, 2010 12:43 pm

como wrote:
bwv812 wrote:
como wrote:Word from career services is that top 50% of Cornell 2011 got SA, but I've heard it's more like top 30-40%.

I'm thinking that Career Services are starting to count $10/hr summer positions at small-law as SAs.


Could be, although the list of rising 3L "contacts" at firms this summer is still quite impressive ITE. It seems as though there isn't much middle ground. Looks like a lot of V25 or nothing.

Counted 68/~200 on the "contacts" list. I'm not sure if the list is comprehensive, but assuming that it is, that puts about 1/3 of 2011 in biglaw SAs this summer. The word is out on what percentage of that fraction will get offers at the end of the summer. :?


Como - Counted this document twice and got 86 (actually 86 once 87 the other time). That puts the number over 40% (close to 45%) for Cornell SA's. Am I missing something?

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como
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Re: About top 23% at Fordham; OCI advice?

Postby como » Thu Jul 08, 2010 1:58 pm

KMaine wrote:
como wrote:
bwv812 wrote:
como wrote:Word from career services is that top 50% of Cornell 2011 got SA, but I've heard it's more like top 30-40%.

I'm thinking that Career Services are starting to count $10/hr summer positions at small-law as SAs.


Could be, although the list of rising 3L "contacts" at firms this summer is still quite impressive ITE. It seems as though there isn't much middle ground. Looks like a lot of V25 or nothing.

Counted 68/~200 on the "contacts" list. I'm not sure if the list is comprehensive, but assuming that it is, that puts about 1/3 of 2011 in biglaw SAs this summer. The word is out on what percentage of that fraction will get offers at the end of the summer. :?


Como - Counted this document twice and got 86 (actually 86 once 87 the other time). That puts the number over 40% (close to 45%) for Cornell SA's. Am I missing something?


Really? No, I guess I just suck at counting or missed a page. Are you sure you didn't count any '10ers?

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KMaine
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Re: About top 23% at Fordham; OCI advice?

Postby KMaine » Thu Jul 08, 2010 2:12 pm

Pretty sure. I counted when we got it, then counted again (twice) when I read your post b/c the number seemed low from what I remembered.

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Re: About top 23% at Fordham; OCI advice?

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Jul 08, 2010 8:51 pm

This is the OP. I particularly like the "Damned Generation" meme. And to D.Wilde, thank you for sharing that. Our CPC warned us things wouldn't be pleasant, but they didn't tell us to expect utter ruin and damnation. Fortunately we know better! :cry:

To my classmate: underbidding carries some risk, as I understand, because firms toward the bottom of the V100 have smaller summer classes and shorter interview schedules (though you are perhaps likelier to get preselects). I would definitely talk to CPC and bid on a mix of firms (elite and less so), but you will want to work out the proper proportion with someone who is knowledgeable about such things.

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Re: About top 23% at Fordham; OCI advice?

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jul 09, 2010 3:12 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:That being said, boalt is definitely a different animal than MVP - the SF market is small and east coast recruiters possibly reluctant to make the trip. Boalt, from what I hear, also tends to have fewer student participants in its OCIP than schools like NYU or Columbia, which means 30% of the class being placed might not be as 'bad' as if 30% of the class had been placed at one of the east coast T14s.

Doing a quick, superficial scan of the employers coming to Boalt this year:
Over 40 NYC offices are coming to Boalt for OCI. Other firms may have local offices interviewing for firm-wide placement-- but that would take more digging than I have time for at the moment. Also not sure whether interview slots are up compared to last year (my summer employment uses Corel instead of MS and can't sum the .xls column.

Plenty of other DC and other east coast firms coming (a surprising number from Miami, IMO).

Whether that translates into actual call-backs or offers-- that's a different story. But I do agree with your charaterization of Boalt OCI as a different animal.


I guess this person meant it's relative. For example, M and V have 400+ firm offices alone this year, not counting fed gov. offices, etc., just firm, and most of them are from the East Coast. Comparably, MVP get way more East Coast firms, and Boalt gets more Cali firms. East Coast firms are more reluctant to head to Boalt and vice versa.

NYAssociate
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Re: About top 23% at Fordham; OCI advice?

Postby NYAssociate » Fri Jul 09, 2010 7:30 am

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Last edited by NYAssociate on Tue Oct 05, 2010 5:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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nealric
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Re: About top 23% at Fordham; OCI advice?

Postby nealric » Fri Jul 09, 2010 9:26 am

Not really. Firms don't yield protect


Sure they do. They won't pay to fly someone out who they don't think is really interested in the firm. But even if they don't, what does that have to do with my point? Firms decide how many people they want in their summer class- ITE, they can fill that class with as many qualified people as they want.

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seespotrun
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Re: About top 23% at Fordham; OCI advice?

Postby seespotrun » Fri Jul 09, 2010 11:03 am

nealric wrote:
Not really. Firms don't yield protect


Sure they do. They won't pay to fly someone out who they don't think is really interested in the firm. But even if they don't, what does that have to do with my point? Firms decide how many people they want in their summer class- ITE, they can fill that class with as many qualified people as they want.


Well, you argued that the uptick in hiring at a few select higher ranked firms would open up spots for less qualified candidates (who couldn't land the "Cravaths" of the world) at lower ranked firms. NYAssociate pointed out (correctly IMO) that your argument presumes that a lower ranked firm would make another offer to a less qualified candidate. You seem to think this is a fair assumption, and that to assume otherwise would imply that lower ranked firms will be shrinking their class sizes even more than last summer.

My point about yield protection was in reference to your argument about the lower ranked firms shrinking their class sizes. Your argument presumes that the lower ranked firms will internalize the small uptick in hiring at the few "Cravaths" of the world. This is highly unrealistic. Even assuming that the lower ranked firms do internalize the uptick in hiring at a few highly selective firms, it wouldn't necessarily lead to additional offers to less qualified candidates. For example, if a V50 yield protected against someone on LR from HYS, it doesn't necessarily mean that this firm will throw a few more offers at someone who's median at GULC. They would probably have YP'ed this person in 2006 anyway. Even making all of these fairly unreasonable assumptions, if there's a trickle down effect at all, it will likely be negligible. Like you alluded to in your above post, ITE it's the firms' market, and the lower ranked firms in particular have more access to talent than ever.

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D. H2Oman
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Re: About top 23% at Fordham; OCI advice?

Postby D. H2Oman » Fri Jul 09, 2010 11:06 am

seespotrun wrote:
nealric wrote:
Not really. Firms don't yield protect


Sure they do. They won't pay to fly someone out who they don't think is really interested in the firm. But even if they don't, what does that have to do with my point? Firms decide how many people they want in their summer class- ITE, they can fill that class with as many qualified people as they want.


Well, you argued that the uptick in hiring at a few select higher ranked firms would open up spots for less qualified candidates (who couldn't land the "Cravaths" of the world) at lower ranked firms. NYAssociate pointed out (correctly IMO) that your argument presumes that a lower ranked firm would make another offer to a less qualified candidate. You seem to think this is a fair assumption, and that to assume otherwise would imply that lower ranked firms will be shrinking their class sizes even more than last summer.


??? I mean if his first assumption is true (who knows, but it seems completely reasonable) the bolded would absolutely be true.

NYAssociate
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Re: About top 23% at Fordham; OCI advice?

Postby NYAssociate » Fri Jul 09, 2010 11:29 am

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nealric
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Re: About top 23% at Fordham; OCI advice?

Postby nealric » Fri Jul 09, 2010 1:21 pm

ITE, firms won't take a less-than-qualified candidate because they need to fill a spot.


I think there's going to be a bit of both. Some firms might be willing to have one less SA if they can't a person of the very highest caliber, but right now there is a surplus of people who are qualified by the historical definition a given firm has used. I know my firm added .2 to its usual GPA requirements for the current summers. But if it wanted the same class size for next year and had trouble finding people who where .02 above, it wouldn't be taking "unqualified" people if it had to go to people whose GPAs were merely .1 higher than the pre-ITE standard.

NYAssociate
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Re: About top 23% at Fordham; OCI advice?

Postby NYAssociate » Fri Jul 09, 2010 10:06 pm

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Re: About top 23% at Fordham; OCI advice?

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Jul 10, 2010 2:01 pm

NYAssociate wrote:And Boalt gets hurt because the CA firms that come to them hire in far lower numbers than the east coast firms that come to MVP.


Yeah I was thinking of bidding on CA, but I think I'm going to avoid it because it seems most of them have only single digit numbers for summer associates.




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