About top 23% at Fordham; OCI advice?

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dresden doll
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Re: About top 23% at Fordham; OCI advice?

Postby dresden doll » Wed Jul 07, 2010 11:35 am

NYAssociate wrote:
dresden doll wrote:
Anonymous User wrote: Friends are revising their predictions that hiring will be up from last year. It'll be an adventure, anyway!


Wait, revising predictions? Is it now believed that 2012 class will be just as screwed as 2011?


Is there any reason to think it won't? The economic forecast isn't exactly puppydogs and sunshines. The assumption that things would be "slightly better" was mostly a meme perpetuated by sanguine rising 2Ls. Unless you're at a top firm that has adjusted realistically to the crisis, things are still looking bad. I see no reason for a firm to increase their class size in anticipation of an uptick that will probably never happen, unless the firm is involved in some time consuming litigation (i.e., Goldman Sachs, BP, etc.).


What you say makes sense. I had just heard a great deal of talk about this year being notably better than the last so I assumed there was at least something substantial to back up what appeared to be an across the board consensus.

My employment experience for the 1L summer certainly bears out the fact that it's incredibly competitive out there. When I interviewed for my current job - associateship at a smaller, business complex litigation/IP-oriented firm - my now boss openly told me that he'd been interviewing full fledged attorneys for the position (and it's a temporary one - they aren't keeping anyone past this summer). Also, I wound up opening firm's employment folder my first week at work. It contained 200 applications at the bare minimum. Made me really grateful for the fact that I go to a good school because I'm absolutely positive that my resume would have been immediately thrown into the trash otherwise. It's a miracle I got the job as it is.

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Re: About top 23% at Fordham; OCI advice?

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Jul 07, 2010 2:44 pm

dresden doll wrote:
NYAssociate wrote:
dresden doll wrote:
Anonymous User wrote: Friends are revising their predictions that hiring will be up from last year. It'll be an adventure, anyway!


Wait, revising predictions? Is it now believed that 2012 class will be just as screwed as 2011?


Is there any reason to think it won't? The economic forecast isn't exactly puppydogs and sunshines. The assumption that things would be "slightly better" was mostly a meme perpetuated by sanguine rising 2Ls. Unless you're at a top firm that has adjusted realistically to the crisis, things are still looking bad. I see no reason for a firm to increase their class size in anticipation of an uptick that will probably never happen, unless the firm is involved in some time consuming litigation (i.e., Goldman Sachs, BP, etc.).


What you say makes sense. I had just heard a great deal of talk about this year being notably better than the last so I assumed there was at least something substantial to back up what appeared to be an across the board consensus.

My employment experience for the 1L summer certainly bears out the fact that it's incredibly competitive out there. When I interviewed for my current job - associateship at a smaller, business complex litigation/IP-oriented firm - my now boss openly told me that he'd been interviewing full fledged attorneys for the position (and it's a temporary one - they aren't keeping anyone past this summer). Also, I wound up opening firm's employment folder my first week at work. It contained 200 applications at the bare minimum. Made me really grateful for the fact that I go to a good school because I'm absolutely positive that my resume would have been immediately thrown into the trash otherwise. It's a miracle I got the job as it is.


All true. My organization had something like 300 applications for three unpaid positions, though hiring criteria varied from those used by your firm. My co-interns didn't come from top schools, but they had tons of relevant experience and both are 3Ls. Do people think 2013 will see the real recovery? I'm just curious, because obviously we can't do much to time the market, but at some point the firms are going to be through the classes they deferred. My understanding was that few firms deferred people as far as the end of 2012.

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Re: About top 23% at Fordham; OCI advice?

Postby dresden doll » Wed Jul 07, 2010 2:54 pm

Anonymous User wrote:All true. My organization had something like 300 applications for three unpaid positions, though hiring criteria varied from those used by your firm. My co-interns didn't come from top schools, but they had tons of relevant experience and both are 3Ls. Do people think 2013 will see the real recovery? I'm just curious, because obviously we can't do much to time the market, but at some point the firms are going to be through the classes they deferred. My understanding was that few firms deferred people as far as the end of 2012.


Yep, the only other SA is a rising 3L with tons of relevant experience. He's on IP journal at his school, has IP background, has worked in IP before and wants to do IP upon graduating. I imagine that all of that more than makes up for the fact that his school isn't elite.

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Re: About top 23% at Fordham; OCI advice?

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Jul 07, 2010 3:07 pm

dresden doll wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:All true. My organization had something like 300 applications for three unpaid positions, though hiring criteria varied from those used by your firm. My co-interns didn't come from top schools, but they had tons of relevant experience and both are 3Ls. Do people think 2013 will see the real recovery? I'm just curious, because obviously we can't do much to time the market, but at some point the firms are going to be through the classes they deferred. My understanding was that few firms deferred people as far as the end of 2012.


Yep, the only other SA is a rising 3L with tons of relevant experience. He's on IP journal at his school, has IP background, has worked in IP before and wants to do IP upon graduating. I imagine that all of that more than makes up for the fact that his school isn't elite.


This makes sense. I hope NYAssociate is merely being pessimistic and not accurately gauging the market, though I have little reason to doubt.

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let/them/eat/cake
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Re: About top 23% at Fordham; OCI advice?

Postby let/them/eat/cake » Wed Jul 07, 2010 3:09 pm

I, too, at one point thought that c/o 2012 would have it better (if only slightly) than c/o 2011. It wasn't just bare optimism, either. I no longer believe that though, and while I don't think hiring will be worse, I think that for another year at least it will remain flat. I don't think that's bare pessimism either; the market signals are not good, and if firm management doesn't see any (obvious) reason to increase class sizes, they won't. I think if there were anyyyy good news firms may be inclined to pick up hiring just in case there's a glut of work 2-3 years down the road. But there isn't any good news lol Perhaps it's because interviews are getting closer but I'm getting more and more frightened.

On that note, i'm going to lay in the sun and hopefully feel better lol

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Re: About top 23% at Fordham; OCI advice?

Postby chicoalto0649 » Wed Jul 07, 2010 3:52 pm

dresden doll wrote:
NYAssociate wrote:
dresden doll wrote:
Anonymous User wrote: Friends are revising their predictions that hiring will be up from last year. It'll be an adventure, anyway!


Wait, revising predictions? Is it now believed that 2012 class will be just as screwed as 2011?


Is there any reason to think it won't? The economic forecast isn't exactly puppydogs and sunshines. The assumption that things would be "slightly better" was mostly a meme perpetuated by sanguine rising 2Ls. Unless you're at a top firm that has adjusted realistically to the crisis, things are still looking bad. I see no reason for a firm to increase their class size in anticipation of an uptick that will probably never happen, unless the firm is involved in some time consuming litigation (i.e., Goldman Sachs, BP, etc.).


What you say makes sense. I had just heard a great deal of talk about this year being notably better than the last so I assumed there was at least something substantial to back up what appeared to be an across the board consensus.

My employment experience for the 1L summer certainly bears out the fact that it's incredibly competitive out there. When I interviewed for my current job - associateship at a smaller, business complex litigation/IP-oriented firm - my now boss openly told me that he'd been interviewing full fledged attorneys for the position (and it's a temporary one - they aren't keeping anyone past this summer). Also, I wound up opening firm's employment folder my first week at work. It contained 200 applications at the bare minimum. Made me really grateful for the fact that I go to a good school because I'm absolutely positive that my resume would have been immediately thrown into the trash otherwise. It's a miracle I got the job as it is.


Out of curiosity, how did you respond to your interviewer after he dropped the " I'm interviewing practicing attorneys" bomb?

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Re: About top 23% at Fordham; OCI advice?

Postby como » Wed Jul 07, 2010 3:55 pm

let/them/eat/cake wrote:I, too, at one point thought that c/o 2012 would have it better (if only slightly) than c/o 2011. It wasn't just bare optimism, either. I no longer believe that though, and while I don't think hiring will be worse, I think that for another year at least it will remain flat. I don't think that's bare pessimism either; the market signals are not good, and if firm management doesn't see any (obvious) reason to increase class sizes, they won't. I think if there were anyyyy good news firms may be inclined to pick up hiring just in case there's a glut of work 2-3 years down the road. But there isn't any good news lol Perhaps it's because interviews are getting closer but I'm getting more and more frightened.

On that note, i'm going to lay in the sun and hopefully feel better lol


I say we all agree to default on our loans and drag the economy even further into the tank.

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Re: About top 23% at Fordham; OCI advice?

Postby dresden doll » Wed Jul 07, 2010 3:58 pm

chicoalto0649 wrote:
Out of curiosity, how did you respond to your interviewer after he dropped the " I'm interviewing practicing attorneys" bomb?


I nodded and frankly admitted that it didn't surprise me because I was well aware of the current economic state.

It wasn't the most awkward part of the interview, to note. That came when he looked at my transcript and said, 'soooooooo, what happened in that Crim Law class?' (Crim was, as you have surely already guessed, a notable deviation relative to the rest of my grades.)

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Re: About top 23% at Fordham; OCI advice?

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Jul 07, 2010 3:59 pm

como wrote:
let/them/eat/cake wrote:I, too, at one point thought that c/o 2012 would have it better (if only slightly) than c/o 2011. It wasn't just bare optimism, either. I no longer believe that though, and while I don't think hiring will be worse, I think that for another year at least it will remain flat. I don't think that's bare pessimism either; the market signals are not good, and if firm management doesn't see any (obvious) reason to increase class sizes, they won't. I think if there were anyyyy good news firms may be inclined to pick up hiring just in case there's a glut of work 2-3 years down the road. But there isn't any good news lol Perhaps it's because interviews are getting closer but I'm getting more and more frightened.

On that note, i'm going to lay in the sun and hopefully feel better lol


I say we all agree to default on our loans and drag the economy even further into the tank.


Quick, someone post some accurate cheerful news about the economy! -OP

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let/them/eat/cake
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Re: About top 23% at Fordham; OCI advice?

Postby let/them/eat/cake » Wed Jul 07, 2010 4:01 pm

como wrote:
let/them/eat/cake wrote:I, too, at one point thought that c/o 2012 would have it better (if only slightly) than c/o 2011. It wasn't just bare optimism, either. I no longer believe that though, and while I don't think hiring will be worse, I think that for another year at least it will remain flat. I don't think that's bare pessimism either; the market signals are not good, and if firm management doesn't see any (obvious) reason to increase class sizes, they won't. I think if there were anyyyy good news firms may be inclined to pick up hiring just in case there's a glut of work 2-3 years down the road. But there isn't any good news lol Perhaps it's because interviews are getting closer but I'm getting more and more frightened.

On that note, i'm going to lay in the sun and hopefully feel better lol


I say we all agree to default on our loans and drag the economy even further into the tank.


I saw we all agree to just buy boats with our next loan checks....wait a second, you have one don't you? And what might youuuu be doing next weekend...

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Re: About top 23% at Fordham; OCI advice?

Postby NYAssociate » Wed Jul 07, 2010 4:09 pm

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Last edited by NYAssociate on Tue Oct 05, 2010 5:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: About top 23% at Fordham; OCI advice?

Postby nealric » Wed Jul 07, 2010 4:14 pm

I don't think this will help rising 2Ls because these are all very selective firms.


To some extent, doesn't a rising tide lift all boats? If the top of the class people go to Cravath instead of Mayer Brown because Cravath increased its class size, then that opens a spot at Mayer Brown for someone slightly lower in the class.


I don't think OCI is going to be as bad as last year, but I don't think it will be even as close to as good as it was in 2008, and a far cry from 2007.

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Re: About top 23% at Fordham; OCI advice?

Postby NYAssociate » Wed Jul 07, 2010 8:51 pm

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Last edited by NYAssociate on Tue Oct 05, 2010 5:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: About top 23% at Fordham; OCI advice?

Postby bwv812 » Wed Jul 07, 2010 9:49 pm

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Re: About top 23% at Fordham; OCI advice?

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Jul 07, 2010 10:46 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
dresden doll wrote:So Boalt only placed 30 percent through OCI? Does anyone know whether MPV fared likewise?

I had heard that CCN placed 2/3 of kids through OCI. In the light of the above information, that seems highly suspect, to say the least. I can't imagine CCN's edge over MPBV being substantial enough to produce that much of a difference.


The 30% boalt number is making the rounds via a game of internet telephone telephone, it first showed up a few days ago on autoadmit. I have not seen any confirmation of it, and am highly skeptical. I think it's an echo chamber thing. Based on my experience and conversations, 30% is very low for MVP, which all are likely closer to the 40-60% range placed in big law summers (no idea how many got it via OCI/EIP/OGI/etc.).

That being said, boalt is definitely a different animal than MVP - the SF market is small and east coast recruiters possibly reluctant to make the trip.


I've also heard 40-60% for MVP, but I don't believe there are any official reports anywhere. Boalt is different because a lot of NYC, Chi, and DC offices do not recruit there. SF offices' summer associate classes are also MUCH, MUCH smaller than NYC offices' summer associate classes, given that SF offices tend to be a fraction of the size in general. NYC tends to recruit heavily from MVP, but not Boalt. Thus, if true, 30% would not be too surprising, simply given the nature of the California markets.

Fwiw, I know that at MV, there are at least 100+ more offices recruiting on campus this year (400+ firm offices alone) so hopefully it won't be worse than last year, at the very least.
Last edited by Anonymous User on Sun Jul 11, 2010 2:35 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: About top 23% at Fordham; OCI advice?

Postby dresden doll » Wed Jul 07, 2010 10:54 pm

A rising 2L at NU told me NU had placed 60 percent of its class through OCI. I believed it at the time because the source has a history of being rational/reliable but I now doubt that it's true. He must have been misled.

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Re: About top 23% at Fordham; OCI advice?

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Jul 07, 2010 10:57 pm

dresden doll wrote:A rising 2L at NU told me NU had placed 60 percent of its class through OCI. I believed it at the time because the source has a history of being rational/reliable but I now doubt that it's true. He must have been misled.

Another rising 2L at NU told me that it was around top 1/3. I don't know how true that is either, and there seem to be varying reports floating around.

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Re: About top 23% at Fordham; OCI advice?

Postby dresden doll » Wed Jul 07, 2010 10:59 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
dresden doll wrote:A rising 2L at NU told me NU had placed 60 percent of its class through OCI. I believed it at the time because the source has a history of being rational/reliable but I now doubt that it's true. He must have been misled.

Another rising 2L at NU told me that it was around top 1/3. I don't know how true that is either, and there seem to be varying reports floating around.


I imagine your source was more accurate than mine.

It was also thrown around on TLS that Chicago had placed 79 percent through OCI. That I never believed. My school might have some edge over CLS/NYU due to its small size but there's no way it was that successful ITE.

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Re: About top 23% at Fordham; OCI advice?

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Jul 07, 2010 11:04 pm

dresden doll wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
dresden doll wrote:A rising 2L at NU told me NU had placed 60 percent of its class through OCI. I believed it at the time because the source has a history of being rational/reliable but I now doubt that it's true. He must have been misled.

Another rising 2L at NU told me that it was around top 1/3. I don't know how true that is either, and there seem to be varying reports floating around.


I imagine your source was more accurate than mine.

It was also thrown around on TLS that Chicago had placed 79 percent through OCI. That I never believed. My school might have some edge over CLS/NYU due to its small size but there's no way it was that successful ITE.


That seems slightly optimistic. I wouldn't be surprised if it placed around the same percentage as CLS and NYU though, which is still good ITE. Has the school officially released any statistics? It seems that only a very small handful of schools have officially published anything.

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Re: About top 23% at Fordham; OCI advice?

Postby dresden doll » Wed Jul 07, 2010 11:07 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
dresden doll wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
dresden doll wrote:A rising 2L at NU told me NU had placed 60 percent of its class through OCI. I believed it at the time because the source has a history of being rational/reliable but I now doubt that it's true. He must have been misled.

Another rising 2L at NU told me that it was around top 1/3. I don't know how true that is either, and there seem to be varying reports floating around.


I imagine your source was more accurate than mine.

It was also thrown around on TLS that Chicago had placed 79 percent through OCI. That I never believed. My school might have some edge over CLS/NYU due to its small size but there's no way it was that successful ITE.


That seems slightly optimistic. I wouldn't be surprised if it placed around the same percentage as CLS and NYU though, which is still good ITE. Has the school officially released any statistics? It seems that only a very small handful of schools have officially published anything.


It certainly seems overly optimistic. My guess is that we placed as many people as CLS and NYU - maaaaybe a percentage or two more due to smaller class size.

They have not officially released anything yet.

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Re: About top 23% at Fordham; OCI advice?

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Jul 08, 2010 2:10 am

dresden doll wrote:
They have not officially released anything yet.


Concur. I'm hoping we can get enough people to be candid once we find out what's really happening at our respective schools. BTW, if the rising 2L at NU is who I think it is, I would believe his information. There aren't too many people in our class year anywhere I trust to really know what's going on. The other has already been in this thread, and likely has superior information to anything we could get from career services at our schools.

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Re: About top 23% at Fordham; OCI advice?

Postby nealric » Thu Jul 08, 2010 10:31 am

You presume that the additional candidate a "Cravath" takes up implies that a lower ranked firm will necessarily make another offer to someone else.


Well, to assume otherwise is to assume that the lower ranked firms will be shrinking their class sizes even more from last summer.

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Re: About top 23% at Fordham; OCI advice?

Postby como » Thu Jul 08, 2010 10:51 am

Word from career services is that top 50% of Cornell 2011 got SA, but I've heard it's more like top 30-40%.

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Re: About top 23% at Fordham; OCI advice?

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Jul 08, 2010 10:59 am

I also go to Fordham and had some OCI questions... Sorry to hijack this thread!

I was wondering what your thoughts are on applying to "safety" firms... and yes, i know that no firms are safe ITE.

Obviously I want to work at the best firm I can, but I'd also rather work at a lower Vault 100 or a firm that falls outside of the top 100 and still pays market and works in my desired field than strike out at OCI altogether because I shot too high.

Thoughts?

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Re: About top 23% at Fordham; OCI advice?

Postby bwv812 » Thu Jul 08, 2010 11:02 am

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