About top 23% at Fordham; OCI advice?

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About top 23% at Fordham; OCI advice?

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Jul 04, 2010 1:12 pm

We have 35 bids, and my list is due to career services in a week. I know I cannot depend on OCI, and I do have other interests, but I want to give this a try and see what happens!

My first thought is to focus on the New York market, though I may look elsewhere. I have a creative background and wide ranging interests (trusts & estates, media law, IP), but I do not want to be a litigator. Some type of transactional work would work well for me.

My strategy at present is to go for lesser known firms, the lower part of the V100, and firms with over 50 interview slots at my school. Most firms have not requested cover letters, but I'll write as many as I can. We have a 60% pre select /40% student preference system, so I may get screening interviews that will be mine to win or lose.

Is there anything else I ought to keep in mind? Specific firm suggestions? I am putting a list together now. Please note that genial/friendly culture is important to me. I am still learning about this process and intend to be as forthright as possible.

Thank you!

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Re: About top 23% at Fordham; OCI advice?

Postby VictoryFord » Mon Jul 05, 2010 1:00 pm

top 23%? :D

The best chance for you to get advice is by putting up your bid list. I'm actually in a similar area to you class rank wise. Maybe pm me and we can exchange notes. I think getting a job through oci will be an uphill battle for us. Your strategy seems to be good though (attacking the lower V100).

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Re: About top 23% at Fordham; OCI advice?

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Jul 05, 2010 3:07 pm

When I was going through the OCI process, I expressed interest in litigation even though I felt that transactional work would best suit my personality. I would recommend going into the interviews with an open mind and do not shut out options. You can say you are leaning towards your true interests, but I would avoid saying "no litigation". You may shut yourself out of some firms, because they may project a higher need for their litigation in the future, or may simply wish to attract flexible candidates.

Many firms, if not most, allow you to try out all of their practice groups over the summer. You can always put down transactional practice groups for your top selection once you get an offer. If it were me, I'd want to heighten my chances for big law as much as possible; however, of course, this is a personal decision.

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Re: About top 23% at Fordham; OCI advice?

Postby chicoalto0649 » Mon Jul 05, 2010 3:15 pm

Will be attending Fordham in the fall.

Won't career services go over your bidding strategy? I remember them saying if you are around in July they will sit down with you and go over what might be a good fit for you.

Also how is OCI looking this year? Last I heard it was about 176 firms (ouch?).

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Re: About top 23% at Fordham; OCI advice?

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Jul 05, 2010 4:51 pm

chicoalto0649 wrote:Will be attending Fordham in the fall.

Won't career services go over your bidding strategy? I remember them saying if you are around in July they will sit down with you and go over what might be a good fit for you.

Also how is OCI looking this year? Last I heard it was about 176 firms (ouch?).

they will, thats why s/he said "my list is due to career services in a week."

I think its closer to 130. ~90 V100 firms and 40 others. at eiw.

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Re: About top 23% at Fordham; OCI advice?

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Jul 05, 2010 6:23 pm

This is the OP. Thanks for your responses! I imagine we'll have an uphill climb this year, though this would have been a decent place to be before the Great Recession. I will likely post my bid list when I finish it, but I am still in research mode. I absolutely mean to be flexible, and I certainly won't tell employers "no" anything, though I may emphasize areas where I would prefer to practice. I am aware the odds are long, but the list is still growing, and career services seemed to think top third was the magic number to get screening interviews at many V100 firms.

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Re: About top 23% at Fordham; OCI advice?

Postby A'nold » Mon Jul 05, 2010 6:38 pm

Anonymous User wrote:This is the OP. Thanks for your responses! I imagine we'll have an uphill climb this year, though this would have been a decent place to be before the Great Recession. I will likely post my bid list when I finish it, but I am still in research mode. I absolutely mean to be flexible, and I certainly won't tell employers "no" anything, though I may emphasize areas where I would prefer to practice. I am aware the odds are long, but the list is still growing, and career services seemed to think top third was the magic number to get screening interviews at many V100 firms.


Meh. The odds certainly aren't "long" by any stretch. Top 1/4 at Fordham would seem to have a fighting chance, not just a long shot chance. I am officially declaring right now that you get at least a few offers. :)

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Re: About top 23% at Fordham; OCI advice?

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Jul 05, 2010 6:55 pm

A'nold wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:This is the OP. Thanks for your responses! I imagine we'll have an uphill climb this year, though this would have been a decent place to be before the Great Recession. I will likely post my bid list when I finish it, but I am still in research mode. I absolutely mean to be flexible, and I certainly won't tell employers "no" anything, though I may emphasize areas where I would prefer to practice. I am aware the odds are long, but the list is still growing, and career services seemed to think top third was the magic number to get screening interviews at many V100 firms.


Meh. The odds certainly aren't "long" by any stretch. Top 1/4 at Fordham would seem to have a fighting chance, not just a long shot chance. I am officially declaring right now that you get at least a few offers. :)


Thank you for your kind encouragement. I do hope you are right! -the OP.

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Re: About top 23% at Fordham; OCI advice?

Postby NYAssociate » Mon Jul 05, 2010 7:46 pm

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Re: About top 23% at Fordham; OCI advice?

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Jul 05, 2010 8:29 pm

NYAssociate wrote:From what I know, there was a huge gulf between people who got offers and people who didn't. Those on the former side were almost exclusively on LR.


I have heard as much. LR offers have yet to come back, and those of us in the top third were eligible to write on. If I wrote onto Law Review (unlikely, but not completely impossible), that could change the equation. Rising 3L friends told me there were strange occurrences, with people very near the top striking out, and others closer to the top third mark getting offers.

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Re: About top 23% at Fordham; OCI advice?

Postby bwv812 » Tue Jul 06, 2010 3:41 pm

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Re: About top 23% at Fordham; OCI advice?

Postby Person » Tue Jul 06, 2010 4:06 pm

bwv812 wrote:
A'nold wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:This is the OP. Thanks for your responses! I imagine we'll have an uphill climb this year, though this would have been a decent place to be before the Great Recession. I will likely post my bid list when I finish it, but I am still in research mode. I absolutely mean to be flexible, and I certainly won't tell employers "no" anything, though I may emphasize areas where I would prefer to practice. I am aware the odds are long, but the list is still growing, and career services seemed to think top third was the magic number to get screening interviews at many V100 firms.


Meh. The odds certainly aren't "long" by any stretch. Top 1/4 at Fordham would seem to have a fighting chance, not just a long shot chance. I am officially declaring right now that you get at least a few offers. :)

This is ridiculous. Top quarter at Fordham is not getting "at least a few offers," and I don't know how A'nold thinks he is even in a position to be offering information of any value here.


I would have thought that at about V100 a top 1/4 Fordham student would be a decent prospect. The economy can't be that bad can it? I understand not V50, but what are you basing this off?

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Re: About top 23% at Fordham; OCI advice?

Postby bwv812 » Tue Jul 06, 2010 4:13 pm

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Re: About top 23% at Fordham; OCI advice?

Postby NYAssociate » Tue Jul 06, 2010 6:14 pm

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Re: About top 23% at Fordham; OCI advice?

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jul 06, 2010 7:25 pm

bwv812 wrote:
Person wrote:
bwv812 wrote:
A'nold wrote:
Meh. The odds certainly aren't "long" by any stretch. Top 1/4 at Fordham would seem to have a fighting chance, not just a long shot chance. I am officially declaring right now that you get at least a few offers. :)

This is ridiculous. Top quarter at Fordham is not getting "at least a few offers," and I don't know how A'nold thinks he is even in a position to be offering information of any value here.


I would have thought that at about V100 a top 1/4 Fordham student would be a decent prospect. The economy can't be that bad can it? I understand not V50, but what are you basing this off?

The same thing that OP was basing it off of. Top 25% at lower T14 were getting maybe a few callbacks last year, let alone a few offers. If Boalt places ~30% through OCI, it's a good bet that Fordham is doing worse.


I have no illusions about the precise nature of my situation. Last year was a bloodbath everywhere but at the most elite schools. If things remain unchanged, I am unlikely to get offers, and may not get callbacks. My friends tell me I may beat the odds, but I highly doubt I possess personal qualities that can mitigate the effects of an economy barely out of self-destruct mode.

I promise to be forthcoming about my experiences (anonymously, of course) if they can be helpful to others.

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Re: About top 23% at Fordham; OCI advice?

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Jul 07, 2010 10:03 am

This is the OP. I'll be speaking with career services soon, and I won't have a ton of time, so apart from questions about individual firms ("Is firm X a good bid, given my background?"), are there other important questions I should ask? I want to make sure I reserve the time for things I can't easily find out on my own. (The only guideline we've been given regarding which firms to select is very broad and overly optimistic, in my opinion. I would like finer gradations of GPA data, particularly for callbacks, but they have not been made available. As such, I'm shooting for the bottom of the V100 and I intend to see what happens.)

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Re: About top 23% at Fordham; OCI advice?

Postby dresden doll » Wed Jul 07, 2010 10:19 am

So Boalt only placed 30 percent through OCI? Does anyone know whether MPV fared likewise?

I had heard that CCN placed 2/3 of kids through OCI. In the light of the above information, that seems highly suspect, to say the least. I can't imagine CCN's edge over MPBV being substantial enough to produce that much of a difference.

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Re: About top 23% at Fordham; OCI advice?

Postby Bankhead » Wed Jul 07, 2010 10:26 am

Anonymous User wrote:This is the OP. I'll be speaking with career services soon, and I won't have a ton of time, so apart from questions about individual firms ("Is firm X a good bid, given my background?"), are there other important questions I should ask? I want to make sure I reserve the time for things I can't easily find out on my own. (The only guideline we've been given regarding which firms to select is very broad and overly optimistic, in my opinion. I would like finer gradations of GPA data, particularly for callbacks, but they have not been made available. As such, I'm shooting for the bottom of the V100 and I intend to see what happens.)


I would think that the problem with shooting for the bottom of the V100 is that the class sizes tend to be so much smaller.

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Re: About top 23% at Fordham; OCI advice?

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Jul 07, 2010 10:27 am

dresden doll wrote:So Boalt only placed 30 percent through OCI? Does anyone know whether MPV fared likewise?

I had heard that CCN placed 2/3 of kids through OCI. In the light of the above information, that seems highly suspect, to say the least. I can't imagine CCN's edge over MPBV being substantial enough to produce that much of a difference.


The 30% boalt number is making the rounds via a game of internet telephone telephone, it first showed up a few days ago on autoadmit. I have not seen any confirmation of it, and am highly skeptical. I think it's an echo chamber thing. Based on my experience and conversations, 30% is very low for MVP, which all are likely closer to the 40-60% range placed in big law summers (no idea how many got it via OCI/EIP/OGI/etc.).

That being said, boalt is definitely a different animal than MVP - the SF market is small and east coast recruiters possibly reluctant to make the trip. Boalt, from what I hear, also tends to have fewer student participants in its OCIP than schools like NYU or Columbia, which means 30% of the class being placed might not be as 'bad' as if 30% of the class had been placed at one of the east coast T14s.

As for OP: You're doing all the right things, I don't think there's anything magic to ask career services at this juncture.

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Re: About top 23% at Fordham; OCI advice?

Postby dresden doll » Wed Jul 07, 2010 10:33 am

Anonymous User wrote:
dresden doll wrote:So Boalt only placed 30 percent through OCI? Does anyone know whether MPV fared likewise?

I had heard that CCN placed 2/3 of kids through OCI. In the light of the above information, that seems highly suspect, to say the least. I can't imagine CCN's edge over MPBV being substantial enough to produce that much of a difference.


The 30% boalt number is making the rounds via a game of internet telephone telephone, it first showed up a few days ago on autoadmit. I have not seen any confirmation of it, and am highly skeptical. I think it's an echo chamber thing. Based on my experience and conversations, 30% is very low for MVP, which all are likely closer to the 40-60% range placed in big law summers (no idea how many got it via OCI/EIP/OGI/etc.).

That being said, boalt is definitely a different animal than MVP - the SF market is small and east coast recruiters possibly reluctant to make the trip. Boalt, from what I hear, also tends to have fewer student participants in its OCIP than schools like NYU or Columbia, which means 30% of the class being placed might not be as 'bad' as if 30% of the class had been placed at one of the east coast T14s.

As for OP: You're doing all the right things, I don't think there's anything magic to ask career services at this juncture.


Thank you for the response. Very helpful.

I mean, I'm a fairly pessimstic person and would not at all be surprised if close to a half of CCN-ers struck out, but 30 percent figure did catch me off-guard.

As for the OP, my admittedly limited knowledge of the current situation leads me to think (s)he's doing it right. Top quarter at Fordham is objectively very respectable and it's not crazy for OP to shoot for lower V100 with such ranking. I wouldn't count on anything, but firms of that stature seem like a fair shot.

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Re: About top 23% at Fordham; OCI advice?

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Jul 07, 2010 10:43 am

Anonymous User wrote:
dresden doll wrote:So Boalt only placed 30 percent through OCI? Does anyone know whether MPV fared likewise?

I had heard that CCN placed 2/3 of kids through OCI. In the light of the above information, that seems highly suspect, to say the least. I can't imagine CCN's edge over MPBV being substantial enough to produce that much of a difference.


The 30% boalt number is making the rounds via a game of internet telephone telephone, it first showed up a few days ago on autoadmit. I have not seen any confirmation of it, and am highly skeptical. I think it's an echo chamber thing. Based on my experience and conversations, 30% is very low for MVP, which all are likely closer to the 40-60% range placed in big law summers (no idea how many got it via OCI/EIP/OGI/etc.).

That being said, boalt is definitely a different animal than MVP - the SF market is small and east coast recruiters possibly reluctant to make the trip. Boalt, from what I hear, also tends to have fewer student participants in its OCIP than schools like NYU or Columbia, which means 30% of the class being placed might not be as 'bad' as if 30% of the class had been placed at one of the east coast T14s.

As for OP: You're doing all the right things, I don't think there's anything magic to ask career services at this juncture.


The Boalt number is scary if true, but I (the OP) have no idea if it is. I heard 30% for GULC and Cornell, and something less for us, but who knows how much less? Rising 3Ls tell me it isn't always the top X% who get the offers, though the people getting them are always concentrated within the top third. I would be willing to venture that proximity matters, and fortunately we'll benefit from that, even if firms won't cancel on us because recruiters can walk over here during lunch hour.

And to Bankhead: this is true, and probably a reason to sprinkle in some reaches in the 50-70 range. What proportion of my bids ought to be such reaches? It's hard to do this intelligently with so little data, but the truth is probably that no one knows much more about how dire our situation is. Friends are revising their predictions that hiring will be up from last year. It'll be an adventure, anyway!

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Re: About top 23% at Fordham; OCI advice?

Postby dresden doll » Wed Jul 07, 2010 10:48 am

Anonymous User wrote: Friends are revising their predictions that hiring will be up from last year. It'll be an adventure, anyway!


Wait, revising predictions? Is it now believed that 2012 class will be just as screwed as 2011?

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Re: About top 23% at Fordham; OCI advice?

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Jul 07, 2010 10:53 am

dresden doll wrote:
Anonymous User wrote: Friends are revising their predictions that hiring will be up from last year. It'll be an adventure, anyway!


Wait, revising predictions? Is it now believed that 2012 class will be just as screwed as 2011?


So say my own classmates, but that's probably an echo chamber as well. I intend to ask career services for their perspective on the expected increase in hiring, if any.

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Re: About top 23% at Fordham; OCI advice?

Postby NYAssociate » Wed Jul 07, 2010 10:58 am

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Re: About top 23% at Fordham; OCI advice?

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Jul 07, 2010 11:04 am

dresden doll wrote:
Anonymous User wrote: Friends are revising their predictions that hiring will be up from last year. It'll be an adventure, anyway!


Wait, revising predictions? Is it now believed that 2012 class will be just as screwed as 2011?


Why not? The job market for lawyers is terrible. There are thousands of laid-off lawyers out there, and many law firms still have to absorb two classes of deferred associates.




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