Internships after the first year.

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MD/JD2B
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Internships after the first year.

Postby MD/JD2B » Thu Jul 01, 2010 12:03 pm

When do you start seeking an internship for the summer after your first year? Do you start surveying the territory (opportunities in your field of interest) as soon as you get to law school, or wait until the second semester after grades are out?

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romothesavior
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Re: Internships after the first year.

Postby romothesavior » Thu Jul 01, 2010 12:12 pm

MD/JD2B wrote:When do you start seeking an internship for the summer after your first year? Do you start surveying the territory (opportunities in your field of interest) as soon as you get to law school, or wait until the second semester after grades are out?


It can't hurt to be thinking about it, but most employers follow NALP which require you to wait until after Dec. 1, I believe.

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deneuve39
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Re: Internships after the first year.

Postby deneuve39 » Thu Jul 01, 2010 12:14 pm

The law school career services people actually can't even talk to you about it until November 1st, so you can't meet with counselors or anything. It doesn't hurt to search through databases and stuff before then, though, especially b/c November is when the pressure to study for finals starts to hit.

Anonymous User
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Re: Internships after the first year.

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Jul 01, 2010 12:15 pm

MD/JD2B wrote:When do you start seeking an internship for the summer after your first year? Do you start surveying the territory (opportunities in your field of interest) as soon as you get to law school, or wait until the second semester after grades are out?


Employers are not allowed to contact a 1L, and 1L's can't contact them, before December 1. You can do research before then, but once December 1 rolls around you can start applying for jobs. However, because this is right around finals, the bulk of the job hunt usually takes place during winter break. Plenty of places also have opportunities open up in the spring, which is when they'll have a better idea about summer hiring as far as 1L's are concerned.

Your career services office will go over all of this, but you definitely don't wait until you have two semesters of grades -- that's when most 1L jobs have already started!

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animalcrkrs
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Re: Internships after the first year.

Postby animalcrkrs » Thu Jul 01, 2010 12:17 pm

In the fall, I updated my resume, met with my career counselor, and attended the career sessions they were offering.

Over winter break, I updated my resume again, drafted and edited a cover letter, tweaked my writing sample with help from my writing prof (which was the paper that I turned in for my writing class and didn't get back with comments until right before finals), and lined up a reference from a 1st semester prof and a former employer.

When I came back for spring semester I went all out, signed up for 1L OCI, sent out cover letters+ resumes (I was gunning for an in-house counsel position). It was a lot of effort and time interviewing and staying on top of it, but I secured a position by the beginning of March.

People really range on timing for 1L jobs. If you want a judicial externship or firm job, the official "allow" date to send materials is Dec. 1 (well that's the NALP rule and my school enforced the same rule for judges they coordinated with and encouraged that date for ones they didn't) Some people did that but I didn't know anyone who actually HAD a job before mid-Feb. or so. Some people didn't have things lined up until a couple weeks before spring finals (more the public interest/research/clinic jobs)

The most important thing is grades, and most likely the Dec. 1 date with conflict with studying for finals, so I opted to wait until after finals were over to start REALLY gunning for a job.

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Matthies
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Re: Internships after the first year.

Postby Matthies » Thu Jul 01, 2010 12:29 pm

romothesavior wrote:
MD/JD2B wrote:When do you start seeking an internship for the summer after your first year? Do you start surveying the territory (opportunities in your field of interest) as soon as you get to law school, or wait until the second semester after grades are out?


It can't hurt to be thinking about it, but most employers follow NALP which require you to wait until after Dec. 1, I believe.


FYI its not "most" employers, its pretty much just large employers and some judges that follow NALP, most lawyers/law firms are not memebers of NALP. That being said your CSO office will tell you not to do anything before NALP dates, becuase they have agrred to abide by NALP guidlines, and 1Ls should as well, but after 1L year NALP is pretty much a non-issue.

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stratocophic
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Re: Internships after the first year.

Postby stratocophic » Thu Jul 01, 2010 12:47 pm

animalcrkrs wrote:In the fall, I updated my resume, met with my career counselor, and attended the career sessions they were offering.

Over winter break, I updated my resume again, drafted and edited a cover letter, tweaked my writing sample with help from my writing prof (which was the paper that I turned in for my writing class and didn't get back with comments until right before finals), and lined up a reference from a 1st semester prof and a former employer.

When I came back for spring semester I went all out, signed up for 1L OCI, sent out cover letters+ resumes (I was gunning for an in-house counsel position). It was a lot of effort and time interviewing and staying on top of it, but I secured a position by the beginning of March.

People really range on timing for 1L jobs. If you want a judicial externship or firm job, the official "allow" date to send materials is Dec. 1 (well that's the NALP rule and my school enforced the same rule for judges they coordinated with and encouraged that date for ones they didn't) Some people did that but I didn't know anyone who actually HAD a job before mid-Feb. or so. Some people didn't have things lined up until a couple weeks before spring finals (more the public interest/research/clinic jobs)

The most important thing is grades, and most likely the Dec. 1 date with conflict with studying for finals, so I opted to wait until after finals were over to start REALLY gunning for a job.
Pretty much every firm's NALP profile that I've seen gives December 1st for the "when after 12/1 should 1Ls apply" item. Is there some reason for this, i.e. apply now and update us with grades later or are they really just expecting you to apply immediately after receiving your 1st semester grades?

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Re: Internships after the first year.

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Jul 01, 2010 1:42 pm

1) The answer to this question is December 1st. Any other answer is wrong. I had a job lined up before Christmas. 1L positions have very strange hiring policies. A lot go based on connections (geographic or otherwise), a lot get doled out without much regard for LS performance because people just want to hire. You need to get your resumes out ASAP.

2) Yeah, it'll be weird sending out resumes and cover letters without 1L grades. Deal with it. A ton of firms and judges and groups will tell you to wait for grades. But then the second you have grades you can update and cross your fingers. By the time grades come out, many employers will either A) have already hired or B) closed their application window. Yeah, it's crazy. yeah, you have to deal with it.

3) The NALP rules are very important for 1L hiring (it's the defacto standard, you will look unprofessional if you attempt substantive contact with ANY legal employer prior to December 1 of your fall semester). They're also VERY important for pipeline recruitment through second year summer associate positions. There is no NALP police force, but they codify the standards and norms of hiring for a lot of during law school stuff and nobody should write them off.

katjust
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Re: Internships after the first year.

Postby katjust » Thu Jul 01, 2010 1:47 pm

Dec. 1 is not always correct, especially if you are looking at internships. There are a number of organzations that I found that allow 1L's to apply (and encourage them) before December 1. Also, there are funding opportunities that are rolling, so applying for them early can help. That's what I did.

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stratocophic
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Re: Internships after the first year.

Postby stratocophic » Thu Jul 01, 2010 1:50 pm

Anonymous User wrote:1) The answer to this question is December 1st. Any other answer is wrong. I had a job lined up before Christmas. 1L positions have very strange hiring policies. A lot go based on connections (geographic or otherwise), a lot get doled out without much regard for LS performance because people just want to hire. You need to get your resumes out ASAP.

2) Yeah, it'll be weird sending out resumes and cover letters without 1L grades. Deal with it. A ton of firms and judges and groups will tell you to wait for grades. But then the second you have grades you can update and cross your fingers. By the time grades come out, many employers will either A) have already hired or B) closed their application window. Yeah, it's crazy. yeah, you have to deal with it.

3) The NALP rules are very important for 1L hiring (it's the defacto standard, you will look unprofessional if you attempt substantive contact with ANY legal employer prior to December 1 of your fall semester). They're also VERY important for pipeline recruitment through second year summer associate positions. There is no NALP police force, but they codify the standards and norms of hiring for a lot of during law school stuff and nobody should write them off.
Thanks for the advice. Hiring/selection methods never seem to go by the book anyway, so this makes a lot of sense.

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animalcrkrs
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Re: Internships after the first year.

Postby animalcrkrs » Thu Jul 01, 2010 1:58 pm

Anonymous User wrote:1) The answer to this question is December 1st. Any other answer is wrong. I had a job lined up before Christmas. 1L positions have very strange hiring policies. A lot go based on connections (geographic or otherwise), a lot get doled out without much regard for LS performance because people just want to hire. You need to get your resumes out ASAP.

2) Yeah, it'll be weird sending out resumes and cover letters without 1L grades. Deal with it. A ton of firms and judges and groups will tell you to wait for grades. But then the second you have grades you can update and cross your fingers. By the time grades come out, many employers will either A) have already hired or B) closed their application window. Yeah, it's crazy. yeah, you have to deal with it.

3) The NALP rules are very important for 1L hiring (it's the defacto standard, you will look unprofessional if you attempt substantive contact with ANY legal employer prior to December 1 of your fall semester). They're also VERY important for pipeline recruitment through second year summer associate positions. There is no NALP police force, but they codify the standards and norms of hiring for a lot of during law school stuff and nobody should write them off.


I disagree with this, as I think it really depends on the KIND of job you want. For most of the stuff I was looking at (in-house counsel) they didn't want anything until you had grades...and I got responses back for initial interviews AFTER I already accepted my job in early March (and up until the beginning of April or so). I think you CAN jump on Dec. 1 with success for some positions (firms, judicial externships) and use connections early to secure something, but it is by no means necessary to finding something worthwhile to do with your 1L summer.

But hey, either way, I went later than this poster and I got a job, he/she went earlier and got a job. I don't know anyone who isn't doing SOMETHING this summer, it's a matter of if they are being paid and if they are liking the work (since unless you are at a firm your 1L summer will likely NOT lead to a job offer...)

EDIT: I'm getting paid pretty well and like what I am doing, so the 2nd semester plan worked for me...

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ggocat
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Re: Internships after the first year.

Postby ggocat » Thu Jul 01, 2010 2:06 pm

NALP guidelines are just that: guidelines. They are completely voluntary. http://www.nalp.org/principles ("Compliance with the Principles is voluntary, yet virtually all ABA-accredited law schools and many of the nation's legal employers subscribe to these guidelines.")

As Matthies said, "most" employers, especially for unpaid internships, do not follow NALP guidelines.

You do not need to follow the NALP guidelines unless you have a good reason to do so. Two such reasons:
1. Your school requires you to follow NALP guidelines for all employers. Review your student handbook and inquire with the relevant people at your school. Most likely your school has no such requirement. If your student handbook is silent, I would ignore the guidelines for non-NALP employers.
2. NALP employers may ding you. Certainly abide by NALP guidelines for employers who say they follow NALP guidelines. Look at the NALP directoryto see if your potential employer is a NALP employer.

For unpaid government/judicial internships that do not have a job posting (i.e., you're sending a blind cover letter/resume) and do not appear in the NALP directory, you can apply whenever. I didn't send mine out until December 1, but some judges responded that they already hired summer interns.

Sending your resume to non-NALP employers before December 1 will not make you look "unprofessional."

I would start "surveying opportunities" now, before you are in law school. Think about the types of employers you want to apply to, and generate a list with contact information. Be as prepared as possible before school so that you won't have to take too much time away from your studies during a stressful time (November/December). You can wait until grades are out, but some employers will hire earlier. I had luck with judges hiring before grades.

tl;dr = For NALP employers, abide by NALP guideliens; for non-NALP employers, don't worry about it.

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stratocophic
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Re: Internships after the first year.

Postby stratocophic » Thu Jul 01, 2010 2:10 pm

animalcrkrs wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:1) The answer to this question is December 1st. Any other answer is wrong. I had a job lined up before Christmas. 1L positions have very strange hiring policies. A lot go based on connections (geographic or otherwise), a lot get doled out without much regard for LS performance because people just want to hire. You need to get your resumes out ASAP.

2) Yeah, it'll be weird sending out resumes and cover letters without 1L grades. Deal with it. A ton of firms and judges and groups will tell you to wait for grades. But then the second you have grades you can update and cross your fingers. By the time grades come out, many employers will either A) have already hired or B) closed their application window. Yeah, it's crazy. yeah, you have to deal with it.

3) The NALP rules are very important for 1L hiring (it's the defacto standard, you will look unprofessional if you attempt substantive contact with ANY legal employer prior to December 1 of your fall semester). They're also VERY important for pipeline recruitment through second year summer associate positions. There is no NALP police force, but they codify the standards and norms of hiring for a lot of during law school stuff and nobody should write them off.


I disagree with this, as I think it really depends on the KIND of job you want. For most of the stuff I was looking at (in-house counsel) they didn't want anything until you had grades...and I got responses back for initial interviews AFTER I already accepted my job in early March (and up until the beginning of April or so). I think you CAN jump on Dec. 1 with success for some positions (firms, judicial externships) and use connections early to secure something, but it is by no means necessary to finding something worthwhile to do with your 1L summer.

But hey, either way, I went later than this poster and I got a job, he/she went earlier and got a job. I don't know anyone who isn't doing SOMETHING this summer, it's a matter of if they are being paid and if they are liking the work (since unless you are at a firm your 1L summer will likely NOT lead to a job offer...)

EDIT: I'm getting paid pretty well and like what I am doing, so the 2nd semester plan worked for me...
I'll probably have to go with the early approach. I'm not worried about any offer during 1L summer, I just want a 1L SA and an invitation back for 2L (so just the sun and moon, no stars necessary :? )

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Re: Internships after the first year.

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Jul 01, 2010 2:37 pm

Anon from above w/ the three points, chiming in one more time:

0Ls reading this: Opinions differ. I don't think there is even a credible argument that waiting for grades is beneficial. 1L hiring is mysterious and non-standardized, but the sooner you get out there the better. Taken as a whole, the group of people I know who started applying on December 1 did substantially better than those who did not. But some who started Dec 1 came up nearly empty handed while some who started late in the game had great offers. Obviously grades skewed it, but 1L hiring is just too haphazard to draw generalizations beyond the fact that applying earlier is likely helpful.

Worth mentioning that until January you won't even know if you'll have grades that will help in your job search. Lining up a gig before then is thus a fabulous hedge.

As for the December 1 guideline, perhaps it's geographic, but I have absolutely heard it as a standard from many in the legal profession, including those who aren't explicitly part of NALP. But the 'they're just guidelines lol they're voluntary' line of reasoning is very dangerous. The reason they exist is to keep the job market sane, and at the very least every law school will bar the doors of career services to you prior to November 1.

Anyway, my advice is to apply early and apply often, just no earlier than dec 1.

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stratocophic
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Re: Internships after the first year.

Postby stratocophic » Thu Jul 01, 2010 2:40 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Anon from above w/ the three points, chiming in one more time:

0Ls reading this: Opinions differ. I don't think there is even a credible argument that waiting for grades is beneficial. 1L hiring is mysterious and non-standardized, but the sooner you get out there the better. Taken as a whole, the group of people I know who started applying on December 1 did substantially better than those who did not. But some who started Dec 1 came up nearly empty handed while some who started late in the game had great offers. Obviously grades skewed it, but 1L hiring is just too haphazard to draw generalizations beyond the fact that applying earlier is likely helpful.

Worth mentioning that until January you won't even know if you'll have grades that will help in your job search. Lining up a gig before then is thus a fabulous hedge.

As for the December 1 guideline, perhaps it's geographic, but I have absolutely heard it as a standard from many in the legal profession, including those who aren't explicitly part of NALP. But the 'they're just guidelines lol they're voluntary' line of reasoning is very dangerous. The reason they exist is to keep the job market sane, and at the very least every law school will bar the doors of career services to you prior to November 1.

Anyway, my advice is to apply early and apply often, just no earlier than dec 1.
0Ls everywhere thank you, mysterious stranger. (and animalcrkrs as well!)

MD/JD2B
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Re: Internships after the first year.

Postby MD/JD2B » Thu Jul 01, 2010 3:01 pm

Thanks to all of you..I found your postings very valuable!
OL

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Matthies
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Re: Internships after the first year.

Postby Matthies » Thu Jul 01, 2010 6:22 pm

Anonymous User wrote:As for the December 1 guideline, perhaps it's geographic, but I have absolutely heard it as a standard from many in the legal profession, including those who aren't explicitly part of NALP. But the 'they're just guidelines lol they're voluntary' line of reasoning is very dangerous. The reason they exist is to keep the job market sane, and at the very least every law school will bar the doors of career services to you prior to November 1.

Anyway, my advice is to apply early and apply often, just no earlier than dec 1.


Here's the thing about NALP is costs firms MONEY to join and abide by their pledge. Its like BBB, you pay to say you conform with the NLAP standards. I think its $900 a year for one office then like another $500 a year for each of your firms other offices. That 's great if you hire 120+ summer SAs a year. But most firms that most law students will actually end up working at 1L, and likely 2L don't hire near that many nor want to pay a fee for the privldage of doing so. Just an FYI, I did not know this till I got out of school and started talking to lawyers (older lawyers, those who know what the firm spends money on) and they were like NALP what? Who? They want HOW MUCH?

Norlan
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Re: Internships after the first year.

Postby Norlan » Sun Jul 04, 2010 1:29 pm

If you want to practice in the area of corporate law, which one should you apply for clerkship/internship/etc..?

Also, many have said applying after Dec 1 of the year, is that after completion of first year in law school, which is already in your 2nd year of studies? or did you mean to apply after Dec 1 during your first year in law school to get ready for the upcoming summer internship or internship during your regular school year?

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animalcrkrs
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Re: Internships after the first year.

Postby animalcrkrs » Sun Jul 04, 2010 4:01 pm

Norlan wrote:If you want to practice in the area of corporate law, which one should you apply for clerkship/internship/etc..?

Also, many have said applying after Dec 1 of the year, is that after completion of first year in law school, which is already in your 2nd year of studies? or did you mean to apply after Dec 1 during your first year in law school to get ready for the upcoming summer internship or internship during your regular school year?



IMO it's not THAT relevant what the 1L summer job title is as long as you are getting good work and experience out of it. Most firms won't care as long as you can show you got good experience out of it (assuming your grades are already good) That said there are things that are more or less relevant depending on what you want to go in to. For corporate, my recommendations are 1L firm summer associateship in the corporate side, working in-house somewhere, externing with a bankruptcy court judge if that interests you, clinic work if your school has a small business clinic or something of the like.

Dec. 1 refers to the December of the first year (so this is likely JUST BEFORE your first round of law school exams in early to mid-December) to find an internship after your first year (summer between 1L and 2L)

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sixburgher
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Re: Internships after the first year.

Postby sixburgher » Sun Jul 04, 2010 8:58 pm

amyLAchemist wrote:Also, just to clarify, as this was something that was not clear to people at my school. You can have contact/network with people from the employers you are interested in, even if they follow NALP. You just cannot apply for jobs before Dec 1 with those employers.


Thanks for pointing this out. I was unclear on this, and it's definitely an important distinction.

Norlan
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Re: Internships after the first year.

Postby Norlan » Sun Jul 04, 2010 11:49 pm

amyLAchemist wrote:Also, just to clarify, as this was something that was not clear to people at my school. You can have contact/network with people from the employers you are interested in, even if they follow NALP. You just cannot apply for jobs before Dec 1 with those employers.


Awesome, thanks for bringing that up

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worldtraveler
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Re: Internships after the first year.

Postby worldtraveler » Mon Jul 05, 2010 6:19 am

amyLAchemist wrote:Also, just to clarify, as this was something that was not clear to people at my school. You can have contact/network with people from the employers you are interested in, even if they follow NALP. You just cannot apply for jobs before Dec 1 with those employers.


You can also apply for any job with an NGO, certain non-profits, the UN, ICC, ICTY, etc. at any point. For a lot of really coveted public interest stuff like Human Rights Watch, the ICC or other things like that, you should apply sooner or at least start the process. Additionally, pretty much everything outside the country does not adhere to that regulation, so if you want to go abroad Dec. 1st rule does not apply to you.
I applied to a couple positions before Dec. 1st and it was no problem.

On another note, for international stuff other than the really big stuff, like jobs with small local NGOs and the like, their hiring happens much, much later. A lot of them won't even be looking at applicants until February or March. Maybe even April.




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