UVA - Top 40% - Bidding Strategy? Forum

[Anonymous User]

So, I'm somewhere between top 1/3 to top 40%. I have some interest in IP and have the degrees/work experience to back it up.

1) What are my chances in DC (some connections) for non-IP? for IP?

2) What are my chances in California (some connections) for non-IP? for IP?

3) What are my chances in New York (no connections) for non-IP? for IP?

I'm curious to see what people think. I'd love to hear some opinions.

Based on my research ITE, I would think the following:

1) DC
IP - Chances for one of the IP boutiques (e.g. Finnegan, Fish) are decent, especially in the Northern Virginia area. Chances for the patent prosecution firms are pretty hight too.

Non-IP - Chances for BigLaw are lower. V100 level firms at best. More likely,a smaller, local firm.

2) California
IP - Chances are good for IP boutiques as well as for BigLaw firms with IP departments though probably not firms at the top of the heap.

Non-IP - Chances for BigLaw are lower. V100 level firms at best.

3) New York
Chances for both IP (though there's not much of that in NY) and Non-IP are decent on the BigLaw level. Maybe V50 if things work out well. Probably around the V100 range.

[Anonymous User]

I go to UVA and have looked at the data fairly extensively.

My advice to you is to stay the hell away from DC. The problem isn't that it would be impossible, the problem is crowding - NY not only hires more people, but it gets less interest from our school. That means that you'll get many more interviews if you focus on NYC. People in the top quarter (3.5+) were having difficulties even getting pre-select interviews last season. I'm sure many of them landed jobs in DC, but I'm equally sure many didn't and that there was a lot of suspense. Not sure about Cali, but I think that for getting a job at all focusing on NY is the credited way to go. You don't need connections.

Next, I'd advise you drop any and all pretense of the 'vault level' of the firm you wind up working at. Vault is a great approximation of the strengths of corporate law in New York City with a few other firms thrown in for good measure. In DC, a market you're very interested in, the top firms in the area are scattered throughout the list. Sure, Skadden has a DC office - but Covington and W&C and probably a large handful of V10-V50 or so firms are better respected. Now, I realize I'm also advising you to not bid on DC so the point is somewhat moot - just be careful about how you use Vault. The lower 50 aren't just automatically less selective. The more you educate yourself about firms, regions, and practice areas the better luck you'll have with those 50 bids.

Specifically, get on the phone with career services. They have the data you want, which is rough averages for callbacks/offers/interviews over the years. We're all guessing as to how it will be next year, but you need at least a starting point. The V10 are basically out (not because they're the V10, because each firm in the V10 happens to hire those from UVA with much better credentials, I hope you understand why I at once rail against the rating system and still find it occasionally useful for shorthand at times).

I don't have good advice for you about IP. Are you going to Loyola? That changes a lot. Loyola is the big game in town, if you passed on Loyola OGI might be a bad time to try and land a patent firm gig. If you do, look for specific information. There are 8,000,000 different ways to "have the degrees/WE to back it up" and some (BS in bio + 2 years working in a lab) won't get you far while others will. But this is not my area of expertise. Just do the leg work to be able to answer yourself honestly: will a firm be interested enough in my credentials pre-LS to make my school/performance secondary considerations in being hire? If the answer is yes, put more weight on IP. If the answer is no, or if you're more INTERESTED in other pursuits, figure out how to sell yourself, your interests, and your resume for some other set of practice areas. Round out your stories and your interviews.

Lastly, keep in mind that big summer classes are your friend. Some of the bottom Vault firms don't hire many associates. You get 50 bids, and it makes sense to bid on firms with bigger classes from an absolute ' get a job ' point of view. And you're definitely in the range to get a job, but you aren't in the clear and it would be very easy to go wrong. But in the time looking over vault, chambers & partners, TLS, autoadmit.com , etc. and really learn about the firms, regions, and practice areas you are considering. Cross-check with data from career services and be absolutely certain you use your 'top 5' bids for firms you really want to work at and are qualified, but just barely, to do so. If you're top 40% and the firm usually hires top 40% that's a good target.

[Anonymous User]

OP here, I appreciate the response. I agree completely with you re: the vault rankings. I think it's a complete farce of a ranking system that reeks of pretentiousness. I was more using it to acknowledge that I'm not competitive at a fair number of law firms (e.g. Wachtell, Cravath, etc.) while I probably have a better shot at less regarded law firms.

I thought you made an excellent point re: crowding in the DC market. I think you're spot-on that it's one of the problems that UVA has with regard to DC. It's strange though because people always talk about the importance of a school's regional tie and how it's useful to be in a particular area. Yet, it sometimes seems as if it would have been better to apply to DC firms from a school that doesn't send many people that way.

Honestly, if it weren't for personal reasons, I probably would stay the hell away from DC as you suggested because I'm aware of the competitiveness of the DC market. NY does seem a little "easier" (if that's possible) I think because (1) fewer UVA kids and (2) larger summer classes esp for the NY firms.

I've talked with CS as you suggested and so I have a sense of the GPA ranges that were employed last year and the prior years. I'm going based on last year, as I'm guessing it's more representative than the prior years. I think the difficulty is that no one has a gauge as to hiring levels this year compared to last. My general impression is that it will be about the same as last year. However, this is something that no one really knows.

Re: Loyola, yeah, I'm signed up for that. Re: background/WE, yeah, you're right about the 8,000,000 ways and that's partly why it's hard to gauge re: IP. People tend to treat IP as a unified field when it's definitely not. You have to consider the science background (EE? ME? Bio?), the school (MIT? Podunk U?), and the work experience (None? Former patent examiner? Former engineer?) of the person. I'm trying to remain anonymous, so I'm not going to say anything particular here.

Re: summer class sizes, yeah I generally agree that bigger classes are better because it means more chance at an interview. However, I think the difficulty with this is that for a lot of the firms with larger class sizes, I'm out of the running based on GPA/class standing alone. However, I think it's really a matter of picking the the law firms with the largest summer class given a certain GPA cutoff.

Thanks again for the response.

[Kohinoor]

So, I'm somewhere between top 1/3 to top 40%. I have some interest in IP and have the degrees/work experience to back it up.

1) What are my chances in DC (some connections) for non-IP? for IP?

2) What are my chances in California (some connections) for non-IP? for IP?

3) What are my chances in New York (no connections) for non-IP? for IP?

I'm curious to see what people think. I'd love to hear some opinions.

Based on my research ITE, I would think the following:

1) DC
IP - Chances for one of the IP boutiques (e.g. Finnegan, Fish) are decent, especially in the Northern Virginia area. Chances for the patent prosecution firms are pretty hight too.

Non-IP - Chances for BigLaw are lower. V100 level firms at best. More likely,a smaller, local firm.

2) California
IP - Chances are good for IP boutiques as well as for BigLaw firms with IP departments though probably not firms at the top of the heap.

Non-IP - Chances for BigLaw are lower. V100 level firms at best.

3) New York
Chances for both IP (though there's not much of that in NY) and Non-IP are decent on the BigLaw level. Maybe V50 if things work out well. Probably around the V100 range.

From extensive study of JDU and firsttiertoilet, I'm pretty sure nobody from UVA is getting anything from OCI. Sorry to be the one to tell you.

[Patriot1208]

I read something on JDU where they told someone at CCN in the top half to drop out... even though all of those schools are placing 50%+ in big law. Most of those people are just bitter idiots who because of their shortcomings want to disparage everyone else.

[Kohinoor]

I read something on JDU where they told someone at CCN in the top half to drop out... even though all of those schools are placing 50%+ in big law. Most of those people are just bitter idiots who because of their shortcomings want to disparage everyone else.

THEY JUST WANT TO HELP.

[D Brooks]

UVa is a degree mill in decline. HTH.

[98234872348]

From extensive study of JDU and firsttiertoilet, I'm pretty sure nobody from UVA is getting anything from OCI. Sorry to be the one to tell you.

I met a guy UVA grad last night who has an offer from Skadden.

He said "I'm glad I'm not you guys, it's brutal out there"

[Kurama]

From extensive study of JDU and firsttiertoilet, I'm pretty sure nobody from UVA is getting anything from OCI. Sorry to be the one to tell you.

I met a guy UVA grad last night who has an offer from Skadden.

He said "I'm glad I'm not you guys, it's brutal out there"

Aren't skadden first years getting their start dates pushed back?

[98234872348]

From extensive study of JDU and firsttiertoilet, I'm pretty sure nobody from UVA is getting anything from OCI. Sorry to be the one to tell you.

I met a guy UVA grad last night who has an offer from Skadden.

He said "I'm glad I'm not you guys, it's brutal out there"

Aren't skadden first years getting their start dates pushed back?

That might explain why he said he had an offer and not a job.

But I have no clue.

[extragnarls]

I go to UVA and have looked at the data fairly extensively.

My advice to you is to stay the hell away from DC. The problem isn't that it would be impossible, the problem is crowding - NY not only hires more people, but it gets less interest from our school. That means that you'll get many more interviews if you focus on NYC. People in the top quarter (3.5+) were having difficulties even getting pre-select interviews last season. I'm sure many of them landed jobs in DC, but I'm equally sure many didn't and that there was a lot of suspense. Not sure about Cali, but I think that for getting a job at all focusing on NY is the credited way to go. You don't need connections.

How many 3.5+ people do you actually know of that struck out in DC? Did they receive offers from other markets?

[Anonymous User]

How many 3.5+ people do you actually know of that struck out in DC? Did they receive offers from other markets?

This is that anon poster again:

I personally know one person, who at least as of OGI itself, had completely struck out with >> 3.5. And at least one person on LR struck out too.

The point of emphasizing the high GPA strike outs is not to be 'gloom and doom ITE duck and cover' but to emphasize the importance of understanding your market ties, understanding market competition, and making smart bid choices. I've heard from a few 2Ls and 3Ls that a lot of DC hires last year had either great grades OR good grades and a 'DC type' - having grown up or worked extensively in the area. I also know plenty of people who 'broke in' with 'I went to UVA because I <3 DC <3' being the most relevant tie to the area, but my guess is it was more of an uphill battle.

The discussion on UVA law blog shows multiple people in the > 3.5 range who received very few pre-selects (though the 50% lottery, 50% pre-select system had to have hurt) when focusing on DC last year. I seem to recall people with 5 or fewer pre-selects and several more lottery interviews in that range, with reports that people who bid on not-DC in that range often had double, if not more, screening interviews. This data and these recollections are faint and second hand, so please take them for what they are worth.

My main advice (based on largely cold research, but extensive cold research) is to seriously consider whether bidding on D.C. is worth it. The fact of the matter is class sizes are always smaller in DC and demand is very high, which means even qualified - perhaps even the most qualified - candidates will have fewer interviews and thus fewer chances to connect when looking at D.C. If you have good to great grades / work experience / ties / minority status / are tall and handsome / etc. then by all means, take D.C. by storm. We usually send 30%+ of our class into D.C. and are very well known and respected, it's hardly impossible.

But the data suggest the path of least resistance is going to by NYC or smaller well connected markets, and that's worth considering if location is less important than getting ANY firm job to kick-start a career at this juncture.

(And I am happy to be corrected by anyone with more first-hand experience - please be sure to do your own due diligence, etc.)

[D Brooks]

If you have good to great grades / work experience / ties / minority status / are tall and handsome / etc. then by all means, take D.C. by storm.

Good grades: hopefully!
WE: YES!
Ties: YES!
Minority: YES!
Tall and handsome: half yes!

W&C, HERE I COME BABY!

[Kohinoor]

If you have good to great grades / work experience / ties / minority status / are tall and handsome / etc. then by all means, take D.C. by storm.

Good grades: hopefully!
WE: YES!
Ties: YES!
Minority: YES!
Tall and handsome: half yes!

W&C, HERE I COME BABY!

NOT IF YOU DEFER!

[Anonymous User]

What are your thoughts on top 20% with strong DC ties bidding exclusively DC? Still risky?

[Kurama]

If you have good to great grades / work experience / ties / minority status / are tall and handsome / etc. then by all means, take D.C. by storm.

Good grades: hopefully!
WE: YES!
Ties: YES!
Minority: YES!
Tall and handsome: half yes!

W&C, HERE I COME BABY!

Hell yeah man you and I are going to get along!!!

WE: Sort of!
Ties: Yes
Minority: Hell Yes!
Tall and handsome: I've got the second one!

Looks like W&C is getting at least two Black male summer associates in 2012!!

[Anonymous User]

Patton Boggs is probably more realistic - they've consistently taken (at least) one AA male 1L from UVA.

[Anonymous User]

What are your thoughts on top 20% with strong DC ties bidding exclusively DC? Still risky?

(Same anon from above) I'd go for it if I were you. With 50 bids you should land somewhere. Top 20% means you're comfortable above a 3.5. If it's like last year, people who bid on NYC will still get more interviews than you, but I can't imagine there aren't enough jobs to go pick up a top 20%er with strong ties in DC. But I also wouldn't plan on landing at Covington, A&P, Hogan, etc. either. Maybe still worth a bid, just keep in mind that there are a handful of firms everyone wants, plus everyone wants DC, so it can get crowded.

But again, with 50 bids, I think it'll be OK. But as I keep trying to caveat, I am not an expert. Your best bet is to sit down (or call) career services and cross check all hiring data from the last decade. Bid conservatively but not in a mad panic, because I know some people got burned that way last year (ignoring all selective firms despite fairly strong grades and creating crowding problems with the less selective firms).

[D Brooks]

Patton Boggs is probably more realistic - they've consistently taken (at least) one AA male 1L from UVA.

TBH, I'm Robbins Russell or bust.

[Anonymous User]

Hey OP, I'm a UVA 3L with an EE degree but no relevant WE and a similar 1L GPA (maybe very slightly higher - it was between 3.4 and 3.45). That may be enough to out me, but I guess I don't really care.

My OGI experience:

DC: No connections. Bid on about 10 DC firms (including IP boutiques like Finnegan) and got interviews at precisely 0. Also got 0 interviews for offices in other cities of firms that interviewed for both DC and the city I applied to in the same interview room (I know that's horribly worded, but hopefully you know what I mean). People are not exaggerating. DC was brutal last year.

CA: Good but not great connections. Bid on about 15-20 CA firms and got interviews at all but 6. I got bids at all of the IP boutiques I bid for in the area of CA I had ties to and at about half of the ones in the other part CA. Percentage-wise, I did almost equally well with big, general practice firms (everywhere from V10-V100 level). Got a handful of callbacks.

NYC: No interest; didn't bid on it.

Secondary Home Market: Bid on about 15 firms and got interviews at about 10. Got a couple of callbacks. Not many IP boutiques here, so most of the firms were bigger, general practice firms.

[Anonymous User]

Hey OP, I'm a UVA 3L with an EE degree but no relevant WE and a similar 1L GPA (maybe very slightly higher - it was between 3.4 and 3.45). That may be enough to out me, but I guess I don't really care.

My OGI experience:

DC: No connections. Bid on about 10 DC firms (including IP boutiques like Finnegan) and got interviews at precisely 0. Also got 0 interviews for offices in other cities of firms that interviewed for both DC and the city I applied to in the same interview room (I know that's horribly worded, but hopefully you know what I mean). People are not exaggerating. DC was brutal last year.

CA: Good but not great connections. Bid on about 15-20 CA firms and got interviews at all but 6. I got bids at all of the IP boutiques I bid for in the area of CA I had ties to and at about half of the ones in the other part CA. Percentage-wise, I did almost equally well with big, general practice firms (everywhere from V10-V100 level). Got a handful of callbacks.

NYC: No interest; didn't bid on it.

Secondary Home Market: Bid on about 15 firms and got interviews at about 10. Got a couple of callbacks. Not many IP boutiques here, so most of the firms were bigger, general practice firms.

Oh yeah, forgot to mention that I did not go to Loyola.

[Anonymous User]

Hey OP, I'm a UVA 3L with an EE degree but no relevant WE and a similar 1L GPA (maybe very slightly higher - it was between 3.4 and 3.45). That may be enough to out me, but I guess I don't really care.

My OGI experience:

DC: No connections. Bid on about 10 DC firms (including IP boutiques like Finnegan) and got interviews at precisely 0. Also got 0 interviews for offices in other cities of firms that interviewed for both DC and the city I applied to in the same interview room (I know that's horribly worded, but hopefully you know what I mean). People are not exaggerating. DC was brutal last year.

CA: Good but not great connections. Bid on about 15-20 CA firms and got interviews at all but 6. I got bids at all of the IP boutiques I bid for in the area of CA I had ties to and at about half of the ones in the other part CA. Percentage-wise, I did almost equally well with big, general practice firms (everywhere from V10-V100 level). Got a handful of callbacks.

NYC: No interest; didn't bid on it.

Secondary Home Market: Bid on about 15 firms and got interviews at about 10. Got a couple of callbacks. Not many IP boutiques here, so most of the firms were bigger, general practice firms.

Can I ask what range of DC firms you bid on, in addition to the IP boutiques?

[Anonymous User]

1) DC
IP - Chances for one of the IP boutiques (e.g. Finnegan, Fish) are decent, especially in the Northern Virginia area. Chances for the patent prosecution firms are pretty hight too.

I'm a rising 2L at CCN with first semester grades slightly higher than median and was not preselected by Finnegan at the Loyola patent law fair. A few others at my school I spoke with were not either. FWIW, I'm EE w/ M.S. and WE in engineering. I've passed the patent bar and have been doing patent prosecution work (as a patent engineer / agent) for a small firm for around one and a half years. I'm not sure what Finnegan's looking for but it doesn't seem so easy to get ITE.

[prezidentv8]

I read something on JDU where they told someone at CCN in the top half to drop out... even though all of those schools are placing 50%+ in big law. Most of those people are just bitter idiots who because of their shortcomings want to disparage everyone else.

THEY JUST WANT TO HELP.

Hahahaha man you are on lately.

[Anonymous User]

Hey OP, I'm a UVA 3L with an EE degree but no relevant WE and a similar 1L GPA (maybe very slightly higher - it was between 3.4 and 3.45). That may be enough to out me, but I guess I don't really care.

My OGI experience:

DC: No connections. Bid on about 10 DC firms (including IP boutiques like Finnegan) and got interviews at precisely 0. Also got 0 interviews for offices in other cities of firms that interviewed for both DC and the city I applied to in the same interview room (I know that's horribly worded, but hopefully you know what I mean). People are not exaggerating. DC was brutal last year.

CA: Good but not great connections. Bid on about 15-20 CA firms and got interviews at all but 6. I got bids at all of the IP boutiques I bid for in the area of CA I had ties to and at about half of the ones in the other part CA. Percentage-wise, I did almost equally well with big, general practice firms (everywhere from V10-V100 level). Got a handful of callbacks.

NYC: No interest; didn't bid on it.

Secondary Home Market: Bid on about 15 firms and got interviews at about 10. Got a couple of callbacks. Not many IP boutiques here, so most of the firms were bigger, general practice firms.

Can I ask what range of DC firms you bid on, in addition to the IP boutiques?

V100