Reasonable_Man Departing Mid-Law for Small-Law Forum

[reasonable_man]

And unless you reach a big law firm.. This is likely your path.. So get ready..

[RVP11]

My grades/school make it not likely my path. So I don't have to get ready.

I'm not trying to be an ass here. I was just always under the impression you were at a true MidLaw firm, which an NYC firm paying $70k and requiring those kinds of billables seems more toward the so-called "ShitLaw" end of the spectrum. In no other market would anyone consider a firm that pays less than half of what BigLaw does to be "MidLaw."

You're a great poster and contributor to TLS. I just feel like you've been a tad misleading w/r/t this.

[phoenix323]

My grades/school make it not likely my path. So I don't have to get ready because I am unbelievably arrogant.

I'm not trying to be an ass here, and yet everything else in my post completely contradicts this statement. I was just always under the impression you were at a true MidLaw firm, which an NYC firm paying $70k and requiring those kinds of billables seems more toward the so-called "ShitLaw" end of the spectrum. In no other market would anyone consider a firm that pays less than half of what BigLaw does to be "MidLaw."

You're a great poster and contributor to TLS. I just feel like you've been a tad misleading w/r/t this.

FTFY

[nycsoul87]

My grades/school make it not likely my path. So I don't have to get ready.

I'm not trying to be an ass here. I was just always under the impression you were at a true MidLaw firm, which an NYC firm paying $70k and requiring those kinds of billables seems more toward the so-called "ShitLaw" end of the spectrum. In no other market would anyone consider a firm that pays less than half of what BigLaw does to be "MidLaw."

You're a great poster and contributor to TLS. I just feel like you've been a tad misleading w/r/t this.

MVPB, right?

http://abovethelaw.com/2010/06/we-knew- ... -to-india/

enjoy...

Btw, I am actually a huge fan of undeserved douchiness haha, so tip of the hat good sir.

[reasonable_man]

My grades/school make it not likely my path. So I don't have to get ready.

I'm not trying to be an ass here. I was just always under the impression you were at a true MidLaw firm, which an NYC firm paying $70k and requiring those kinds of billables seems more toward the so-called "ShitLaw" end of the spectrum. In no other market would anyone consider a firm that pays less than half of what BigLaw does to be "MidLaw."

You're a great poster and contributor to TLS. I just feel like you've been a tad misleading w/r/t this.

First of all, I said that I billed those hours. I didn't say they were required. Many attorneys at my firm billed 160 hours and were given mediocre raises and stay on as counsel, etc. But if you want to be a partner, the hours I billed were the way to go.

Second, I don't feel that a starting first year salary of 70k during the worst downturn in the history of the legal job market (graduation year; 2008 / bar admission 2009), is anything to be ashamed of at all.

Third, I was up for at least a 10 to 15k raise when I left.

Fourth, I left out bonus compensation.

Fifth, my practice at my last law firm included complex commercial litigation, products liability, mass tort exposure and complicated civil rights cases.

Sixth, in my time there I litigated several cases against Skadden, Wilmer Cuttler, Cravath, and several other white shoe firms.

Seventh, my clients included several fortune 50 or better companies.

Eighth, Most attorneys at my firm earned upwards of 100k within 3 to 4 years, which is not shitlaw money.

Ninth, there are biglaw level kids with top grades from top schools walking around with no jobs right now because they were given 1-year deferrals and then told to go piss up a rope, so don't think anyone is immune.

Tenth, several posters on here had as much as my facebook account and also links to my law-firm bio page, so i don't think I've been misleading to anyone.

Eleventh, get back to me when you've successfully argued, on your own, more than 5 cases before the southern district of New York and had all 5 dismissed on summary judgment where your name is top billed on the memo of law and you actually argued the case before the court and more than 5 million was at stake... Until that happens, you have no right to take a shot at me.

Twelfth, you're a dick.

[pleasetryagain]

First of all, I said that I billed those hours. I didn't say they were required. Many attorneys at my firm billed 160 hours and were given mediocre raises and stay on as counsel, etc. But if you want to be a partner, the hours I billed were the way to go.

Second, I don't feel that a starting first year salary of 70k during the worst downturn in the history of the legal job market (graduation year; 2008 / bar admission 2009), is anything to be ashamed of at all.

Third, I was up for at least a 10 to 15k raise when I left.

Fourth, I left out bonus compensation.

Fifth, my practice at my last law firm included complex commercial litigation, products liability, mass tort exposure and complicated civil rights cases.

Sixth, in my time there I litigated several cases against Skadden, Wilmer Cuttler, Cravath, and several other white shoe firms.

Seventh, my clients included several fortune 50 or better companies.

Eighth, Most attorneys at my firm earned upwards of 100k within 3 to 4 years, which is not shitlaw money.

Ninth, there are biglaw level kids with top grades from top schools walking around with no jobs right now because they were given 1-year deferrals and then told to go piss up a rope, so don't think anyone is immune.

Tenth, several posters on here had as much as my facebook account and also links to my law-firm bio page, so i don't think I've been misleading to anyone.

Eleventh, get back to me when you've successfully argued, on your own, more than 5 cases before the southern district of New York and had all 5 dismissed on summary judgment where your name is top billed on the memo of law and you actually argued the case before the court and more than 5 million was at stake... Until that happens, you have no right to take a shot at me.

Twelfth, you're a dick.

lawl.. Southern DistricTTT of New York.

[Unemployed]

Fifth, my practice at my last law firm included complex commercial litigation, products liability, mass tort exposure and complicated civil rights cases.

Sixth, in my time there I litigated several cases against Skadden, Wilmer Cuttler, Cravath, and several other white shoe firms.

Seventh, my clients included several fortune 50 or better companies.

Eleventh, get back to me when you've successfully argued, on your own, more than 5 cases before the southern district of New York and had all 5 dismissed on summary judgment where your name is top billed on the memo of law and you actually argued the case before the court and more than 5 million was at stake... Until that happens, you have no right to take a shot at me.

Congratulations! You are practicing law on your own terms and actually developing into an attorney (while managing your finances). That's an increasingly rare accomplishment in today's legal industry.

[XxSpyKEx]

My grades/school make it not likely my path. So I don't have to get ready.

I'm not trying to be an ass here. I was just always under the impression you were at a true MidLaw firm, which an NYC firm paying $70k and requiring those kinds of billables seems more toward the so-called "ShitLaw" end of the spectrum. In no other market would anyone consider a firm that pays less than half of what BigLaw does to be "MidLaw."

You're a great poster and contributor to TLS. I just feel like you've been a tad misleading w/r/t this.

MVPB, right?

http://abovethelaw.com/2010/06/we-knew- ... -to-india/

enjoy...

Btw, I am actually a huge fan of undeserved douchiness haha, so tip of the hat good sir.

I personally think it would be kinda sweet practicing overseas for a few years (although not right out of law school). However, that article is hilarious---

We Knew This Was Going to Happen: Michigan Encourages Law Grads to go to India
By Elie Mystal

*
* Share

Is this a “terrible job” or “the inevitable future of the legal economy”? Note: those two answers aren’t mutually exclusive.

The University of Michigan Law School — the 9th-best law school in America — is now posting job opportunities from India.

Has it really gotten bad enough that graduates from a top law school should consider international LPO opportunities? Yes, yes it has….

The job is for Pangea3, one of the largest legal outsourcing companies on the market. Look at how they try to spin the “opportunity” for a bunch of Michigan students:

Role: Legal Research – Associate.
Designation: Associate.
Department: Litigation.
Reports to: Sr. Manager – Litigation.

Job Description: Pangea3 is looking for a recent law school graduate who’s looking for an alternative to the law firm route. The position will offer a U.S. attorney the opportunity to gain a global perspective on the legal services industry by joining a cutting-edge, dynamic, and fast-growing industry in an exciting, rapidly changing part of the world…

The Associate will be based in our state-of-the- art, ISO-certified facility in Mumbai, India. Candidate Profile: Recent Law graduates; Remuneration: Compensation includes competitive benefits and bonus.

It’s time to put on the Above the Law BS translator (hat tip: Mike and Mike in the Morning). Let’s see what this job description is really trying to say:

Job Description: Pangea3 is looking for a member of the Lost Generation who has been shut out of the U.S. legal market and has lost the will to live. The position will offer a U.S. attorney an opportunity to flee their country in a last ditch attempt to avoid paying back the money they owe to their government. All the entry-level jobs will be here in the future anyway, so you might as well get in on the ground floor.

The position is based out of Mumbai, India. Trust us, it’s much better than your “Wheeling, West Virginia.” We don’t need to tell you the compensation because you are desperate and your parents will believe whatever you want to tell them about foreign exchange rates and the CoL in India.

Surely, Michigan graduates can’t be the only people being offered this wonderful opportunity?

To be clear, I don’t mean to slam LPOs, I mean to slam a legal education industry that charges $100K-plus over three years yet leaves its graduates so hard up for employment that people have to leave the country. For the love of God, you realize that the Michigan student who takes this job will be counted as “employed upon graduation” by the Michigan propaganda information office.

If you go to a top ten law school and end up having to go to India to find work, your law school shouldn’t just forgive all of your debts — it should forgive all your debts and furnish you with a public apology.

[keg411]

My grades/school make it not likely my path. So I don't have to get ready.

I'm not trying to be an ass here. I was just always under the impression you were at a true MidLaw firm, which an NYC firm paying $70k and requiring those kinds of billables seems more toward the so-called "ShitLaw" end of the spectrum. In no other market would anyone consider a firm that pays less than half of what BigLaw does to be "MidLaw."

You're a great poster and contributor to TLS. I just feel like you've been a tad misleading w/r/t this.

First of all, I said that I billed those hours. I didn't say they were required. Many attorneys at my firm billed 160 hours and were given mediocre raises and stay on as counsel, etc. But if you want to be a partner, the hours I billed were the way to go.

Second, I don't feel that a starting first year salary of 70k during the worst downturn in the history of the legal job market (graduation year; 2008 / bar admission 2009), is anything to be ashamed of at all.

Third, I was up for at least a 10 to 15k raise when I left.

Fourth, I left out bonus compensation.

Fifth, my practice at my last law firm included complex commercial litigation, products liability, mass tort exposure and complicated civil rights cases.

Sixth, in my time there I litigated several cases against Skadden, Wilmer Cuttler, Cravath, and several other white shoe firms.

Seventh, my clients included several fortune 50 or better companies.

Eighth, Most attorneys at my firm earned upwards of 100k within 3 to 4 years, which is not shitlaw money.

Ninth, there are biglaw level kids with top grades from top schools walking around with no jobs right now because they were given 1-year deferrals and then told to go piss up a rope, so don't think anyone is immune.

Tenth, several posters on here had as much as my facebook account and also links to my law-firm bio page, so i don't think I've been misleading to anyone.

Eleventh, get back to me when you've successfully argued, on your own, more than 5 cases before the southern district of New York and had all 5 dismissed on summary judgment where your name is top billed on the memo of law and you actually argued the case before the court and more than 5 million was at stake... Until that happens, you have no right to take a shot at me.

Twelfth, you're a dick.

<333

[RVP11]

I won't address all your points as a number of them are not really relevant to what I stated. Nowhere do I claim that you do insignificant or shitty work or that I will somehow be better in the profession than you are.

I simply felt that $70k in NYC doesn't comport with the standard TLS definition of MidLaw. From my experience in my home market where $125k is BigLaw market, a firm paying ~$50k wouldn't be considered MidLaw. If that's misinformed/stupid and many other NYC "MidLaw" firms pay similar base salary to junior associates, I'd be happy to be corrected.

And solo practitioners often litigate against top BigLaw firms, so that doesn't really help us in the admittedly arbitrary task of defining your firm's practice.

EDIT: in hindsight, I was probably overstepping when I said you'd been "misleading" - I apologize

[Renzo]

My grades/school make it not likely my path. So I don't have to get ready.

I'm not trying to be an ass here. I was just always under the impression you were at a true MidLaw firm, which an NYC firm paying $70k and requiring those kinds of billables seems more toward the so-called "ShitLaw" end of the spectrum. In no other market would anyone consider a firm that pays less than half of what BigLaw does to be "MidLaw."

You're a great poster and contributor to TLS. I just feel like you've been a tad misleading w/r/t this.

Not only are you being a douche, you don't have any effing idea what you are talking about. Nearly 20% of the NLJ 250 firms don't pay greater than $100k/yr to start, so $70k is nothing to turn your nose up at for the vast, vast majority of new lawyers.

And, please, tell me, what magical firm have you been looking that that both pays less more than $70k and expects less than 1900 billables a year of partner-track associates in NYC?

[RVP11]

Not only are you being a douche, you don't have any effing idea what you are talking about. Nearly 20% of the NLJ 250 firms don't pay greater than $100k/yr to start, so $70k is nothing to turn your nose up at for the vast, vast majority of new lawyers.

And, please, tell me, what magical firm have you been looking that that both pays less more than $70k and expects less than 1900 billables a year of partner-track associates in NYC?

I'm not sure how anything you've said contradicts anything that I said.

Where are these 20% of NLJ250 firms located? All in the Midwest/South/low COL areas, I'm guessing.

What I've been driving at is this: if $70k base salary in NYC, the COL equivalent of making like $30k somewhere in Middle America, is considered the "MidLaw" fallback that everyone thinks is out there, then things are even worse for law grads than TLSers know. It's great that RM was clearly doing substantive, non-"Shitlaw" work, but it's still a pretty raw deal for LS grads who are expecting a lot more these days. Which is why I question the definition of the practice as "MidLaw" to begin with. Again, I'd be happy to be proven wrong.

[Renzo]

Not only are you being a douche, you don't have any effing idea what you are talking about. Nearly 20% of the NLJ 250 firms don't pay greater than $100k/yr to start, so $70k is nothing to turn your nose up at for the vast, vast majority of new lawyers.

And, please, tell me, what magical firm have you been looking that that both pays less more than $70k and expects less than 1900 billables a year of partner-track associates in NYC?

I'm not sure how anything you've said contradicts anything that I said.

Where are these 20% of NLJ250 firms located? All in the Midwest/South/low COL areas, I'm guessing.

Also: link to 20% of NLJ250 firms paying less than $100k?

See, e.g.Bond, Schoeneck, & King (LinkRemoved); an NLJ 250 firm in New York paying $85k/yr to start. To be fair, they only "require" 1800 billables a year; you decide if you think making the minimum 1800 billables will keep you employed.

[RVP11]

They have twelve people in their New York City office. Twelve. I'm guessing zero SAs per year going to that office.

And yeah, I doubt this firm is pwning people working in an office or Syracuse or Utica or Oswego, making $85k, who "only" bill 1800, considering their reported average billable hour for associates is in the 1600s.

[Renzo]

They have twelve people in their New York City office. Twelve. I'm guessing zero SAs per year going to that office.

And yeah, I doubt this firm is pwning people working in an office or Syracuse or Utica or Oswego, making $85k, who "only" bill 1800, considering their reported average billable hour for associates is in the 1600s.

So, you think that the fact there isn't enough work to keep everyone occupied means less pressure to bill?

Besides, you're missing the point. This is a "biglaw" firm--it's in the NLJ 250. It isn't in Montana or Rural Mississippi. And it pays less than $100k to start. Where's this magical "real" midlaw job you seem to think exists, where you make a lot of money for not a lot of billing and you do it in NYC? Or is it possible that this is exactly the job you were talking about, and it's not as wonderful as you ignorantly assumed?

[RVP11]

I should have clarified. I don't think "MidLaw" really exists in big cities like NYC. This is why I questioned RM's definition in the first place. Then everyone flipped out like it was a personal insult to the guy.

[nealric]

My grades/school make it not likely my path. So I don't have to get ready.

I'm not trying to be an ass here. I was just always under the impression you were at a true MidLaw firm, which an NYC firm paying $70k and requiring those kinds of billables seems more toward the so-called "ShitLaw" end of the spectrum. In no other market would anyone consider a firm that pays less than half of what BigLaw does to be "MidLaw."

You're a great poster and contributor to TLS. I just feel like you've been a tad misleading w/r/t this.

First of all, I said that I billed those hours. I didn't say they were required. Many attorneys at my firm billed 160 hours and were given mediocre raises and stay on as counsel, etc. But if you want to be a partner, the hours I billed were the way to go.

Second, I don't feel that a starting first year salary of 70k during the worst downturn in the history of the legal job market (graduation year; 2008 / bar admission 2009), is anything to be ashamed of at all.

Third, I was up for at least a 10 to 15k raise when I left.

Fourth, I left out bonus compensation.

Fifth, my practice at my last law firm included complex commercial litigation, products liability, mass tort exposure and complicated civil rights cases.

Sixth, in my time there I litigated several cases against Skadden, Wilmer Cuttler, Cravath, and several other white shoe firms.

Seventh, my clients included several fortune 50 or better companies.

Eighth, Most attorneys at my firm earned upwards of 100k within 3 to 4 years, which is not shitlaw money.

Ninth, there are biglaw level kids with top grades from top schools walking around with no jobs right now because they were given 1-year deferrals and then told to go piss up a rope, so don't think anyone is immune.

Tenth, several posters on here had as much as my facebook account and also links to my law-firm bio page, so i don't think I've been misleading to anyone.

Eleventh, get back to me when you've successfully argued, on your own, more than 5 cases before the southern district of New York and had all 5 dismissed on summary judgment where your name is top billed on the memo of law and you actually argued the case before the court and more than 5 million was at stake... Until that happens, you have no right to take a shot at me.

Twelfth, you're a dick.

[Matthies]

What I've been driving at is this: if $70k base salary in NYC, the COL equivalent of making like $30k somewhere in Middle America, is considered the "MidLaw" fallback that everyone thinks is out there, then things are even worse for law grads than TLSers know. It's great that RM was clearly doing substantive, non-"Shitlaw" work, but it's still a pretty raw deal for LS grads who are expecting a lot more these days. Which is why I question the definition of the practice as "MidLaw" to begin with. Again, I'd be happy to be proven wrong.

NLJ 250 = 250 largest law firms in the US, i.e. largest numbers of lawyers, ie. BigLaW!

Anything not in the NLJ250 would not be one of the 250 largest law firms int he US, hence MidLaw!

Anything smaller than that, is SmallLaw!

None of those titles has anything to do with salary, its not Bigsalerylaw, midsalerylaw, smallsalerylaw.

Its simply the size of the firms based on the numbers of lawyers they have, its has nothing to do with what they pay, or bring in, or what overhead, or PPP they make.

Biglaw/Midlaw/Smalllaw simply tell you how many mouths they feed, not how much they feed them.

Don't confuse the two.

[Renzo]

I should have clarified. I don't think "MidLaw" really exists in big cities like NYC. This is why I questioned RM's definition in the first place. Then everyone flipped out like it was a personal insult to the guy.

There are plenty of mid-size firms in NYC. Lots of insurance defense, lots of plaintiff's bar firms, some other niche firms, plus the kind of generic business work that small businesses need and can't afford to pay Cravath for. What doesn't exist is the kind of "less money for less work" job you are talking about. As Reasonable_man said, midlaw generally means same work as biglaw for less money.

Also, if you can't see how your post was a personal insult, you might get a biglaw gig, but enjoy your no-offer when they figure out how socially inept you are.

[nealric]

NLJ 250 = 250 largest law firms in the US, i.e. largest numbers of lawyers, ie. BigLaW!

Anything not in the NLJ250 would not be one of the 250 largest law firms int he US, hence MidLaw!

Anything smaller than that, is SmallLaw!

I don't necessarily disagree with your assessment, but I do think the term "Biglaw" is open to some interpretation. A lot of people wouldn't consider a lower NLJ250 firm that mostly does insurance defense biglaw because it doesn't have much in common with the Skaddens of the world.

[pleasetryagain]

Also, if you can't see how your post was a personal insult, you might get a biglaw gig, but enjoy your no-offer when they figure out how socially inept you are.

Hey now.. Whats personal about a 2L seriously insulting an actual lawyer man's career? I see nothing personal here.

[RVP11]

Also, if you can't see how your post was a personal insult, you might get a biglaw gig, but enjoy your no-offer when they figure out how socially inept you are.

Hey now.. Whats personal about a 2L seriously insulting an actual lawyer man's career? I see nothing personal here.

Hypothetically, if a PI lawyer came on to TLS and referred to his firm, the cochran firm (an NLJ250 firm, after all), as "BigLaw," do you think a 2L questioning that definition is necessarily an insult?

I wasn't trying to insult his career. It's a matter of definition. See: my first post.

[Matthies]

NLJ 250 = 250 largest law firms in the US, i.e. largest numbers of lawyers, ie. BigLaW!

Anything not in the NLJ250 would not be one of the 250 largest law firms int he US, hence MidLaw!

Anything smaller than that, is SmallLaw!

I don't necessarily disagree with your assessment, but I do think the term "Biglaw" is open to some interpretation. A lot of people wouldn't consider a lower NLJ250 firm that mostly does insurance defense biglaw because it doesn't have much in common with the Skaddens of the world.

Sure that's my point, but then don't use NLJ = biglaw then, cuase all NLJ means is the biggest law firms in the US. NLJ is based purley on size, nothing else. If Skaddedn fired all but 10 lawyers they would no longer be on the NLJ250 list, even if they kept all thier current clenits, piad the smae, and made more $. Ethier point to a firm you consider biglaw or point to NLJ250, the point is they don't mean the same thing unless your talking purely about SIZE. If the Sam the 'Hammer" Jones your phonebook PI lawyer hired 500 lawyers, bam he's now on the NLJ250 and if you say NLJ is biglaw then he;'s now biglaw too. Its a pointless stat clueless law stduents like to toss around as = money, when it = size and nothing more.

[reasonable_man]

What is the TLS definition of "Midlaw?"


Thanks Steve.. Looking forward to starting..

[Cleareyes]

What is the TLS definition of "Midlaw?"


Thanks Steve.. Looking forward to starting..

It's a magical place. You work about 40-50 hours a week, and make between $90,000-$159,999.99 and ride to work on a unicorn/pegasus, Sure you don't make quite as much as a biglaw lawyer but you don't have to put in the grueling hours or deal with angry, bitter, partners dumping stuff on you at the last minute. In midlaw they motivate through hugs and free massages every Friday!

Seriously though I think it just has to do with the size of the lawfirm. Like 50 lawyers is midlaw? People on TLS seem to assume that because it's 'mid' law it will be between small law and biglaw in every way, hours worked, payscale, etc... As far as I know the big vs mid vs small just relates to the size of the firm, with huge firms tending to pay the best in the current market.