Reasonable_Man Departing Mid-Law for Small-Law Forum

[badwithpseudonyms]

What is the TLS definition of "Midlaw?"


Thanks Steve.. Looking forward to starting..

It's a magical place. You work about 40-50 hours a week, and make between $90,000-$159,999.99 and ride to work on a unicorn/pegasus, Sure you don't make quite as much as a biglaw lawyer but you don't have to put in the grueling hours or deal with angry, bitter, partners dumping stuff on you at the last minute. In midlaw they motivate through hugs and free massages every Friday!

What shitlaw firms are you hoping to get into that only give free massages on Friday?

Congrats, OP. Your posts have always been helpful. So, to everyone else, why don't we stfu and try and un-derail this thread? RM is a big boy and can fight his own battles, and the other guy apologized... kinda.

[reasonable_man]

I assumed the lawfirm I was leaving was mid-law because it:

a) paid a little better than shitlaw(70k as opposed to 35 to 45k -- which is very much a reality right now);
b) had about 80 lawyers (thus not big nor small -- but 'mid');
c) had a mix of work ranging from mass tort to products cases to some civil rights cases to other more complicated commercial matters;
d) had some good clients;
e) had 5 offices, one of which sits atop a pretty nice 30 story building down-town with some pretty nice views -- usually the real shitlaw firms don't splurge on the top two floors;
f) had lawyers from all levels of law school T14 on down; and
g) had a pretty good reputation amonst the local bar.

If this doesn't qualify as midlaw, then I would like to know what the true definition would be?

[romothesavior]

My grades/school make it not likely my path. So I don't have to get ready.

I'm not trying to be an ass here. I was just always under the impression you were at a true MidLaw firm, which an NYC firm paying $70k and requiring those kinds of billables seems more toward the so-called "ShitLaw" end of the spectrum. In no other market would anyone consider a firm that pays less than half of what BigLaw does to be "MidLaw."

You're a great poster and contributor to TLS. I just feel like you've been a tad misleading w/r/t this.

I am not even religious, but I will be on my knees every night praying that you get no-offered and stuck doing doc review. I truly hate you.

[stratocophic]

What is the TLS definition of "Midlaw?"


Thanks Steve.. Looking forward to starting..

TLS Definition: lol midlaw. There is no midlaw. There is only 160k or 40k squalor.

TMFCR.

1600-1800 billables, somewhere around 70-100k starting (depending on the market maybe? I dunno) is the picture I've gotten from TLS.

^^ Sounds like midlaw to me, although TBF I've never experienced the daily abuse that is NYC's COL.

[ggocat]

1600-1800 billables, somewhere around 70-100k starting (depending on the market maybe? I dunno) is the picture I've gotten from TLS.

I think that's more like notlaw.

[stratocophic]

1600-1800 billables, somewhere around 70-100k starting (depending on the market maybe? I dunno) is the picture I've gotten from TLS.

I think that's more like notlaw.

I never said I believed it, just that it seems to be TLS' general impression But...

[romothesavior]

First of all, congrats to RM.

Second, I think this is the type of story that should give a lot of people serious pause with respect to the "biglaw or bust" mindset (see: DF). It isn't strictly "Biglaw v. Shitlaw." Is it going to take RM longer to pay off his debts than biglaw folks? Yes. But unlike the killself associates in biglaw, it sound like he is getting to do some meaningful work and build his career. As Matthies and many others have argued, there is life beyond biglaw, and even if you aren't "models and bottles" straight out of law school, there are opportunities to be had.

[mallard]

First of all, congrats to RM.

Second, I think this is the type of story that should give a lot of people serious pause with respect to the "biglaw or bust" mindset (see: DF). It isn't strictly "Biglaw v. Shitlaw." Is it going to take RM longer to pay off his debts than biglaw folks? Yes. But unlike the killself associates in biglaw, it sound like he is getting to do some meaningful work and build his career. As Matthies and many others have argued, there is life beyond biglaw, and even if you aren't "models and bottles" straight out of law school, there are opportunities to be had.

I don't think anybody should pile up six-figure debt to do shitlaw.

[romothesavior]

First of all, congrats to RM.

Second, I think this is the type of story that should give a lot of people serious pause with respect to the "biglaw or bust" mindset (see: DF). It isn't strictly "Biglaw v. Shitlaw." Is it going to take RM longer to pay off his debts than biglaw folks? Yes. But unlike the killself associates in biglaw, it sound like he is getting to do some meaningful work and build his career. As Matthies and many others have argued, there is life beyond biglaw, and even if you aren't "models and bottles" straight out of law school, there are opportunities to be had.

I don't think anybody should pile up six-figure debt to do shitlaw.

I don't really view a 70k salary as shitlaw, especially considering that the opportunity for career advancement is often a lot better than non-lawyer jobs. This expectation that we should all be cashing 160k salaries upon graduation is really pervasive on this site, and it is really quite frustrating.

And there are reasons for going to law school that aren't purely rooted in money.

[mallard]

First of all, congrats to RM.

Second, I think this is the type of story that should give a lot of people serious pause with respect to the "biglaw or bust" mindset (see: DF). It isn't strictly "Biglaw v. Shitlaw." Is it going to take RM longer to pay off his debts than biglaw folks? Yes. But unlike the killself associates in biglaw, it sound like he is getting to do some meaningful work and build his career. As Matthies and many others have argued, there is life beyond biglaw, and even if you aren't "models and bottles" straight out of law school, there are opportunities to be had.

I don't think anybody should pile up six-figure debt to do shitlaw.

I don't really view a 70k salary as shitlaw, especially considering that the opportunity for career advancement is often a lot better than non-lawyer jobs. This expectation that we should all be cashing 160k salaries upon graduation is really pervasive on this site, and it is really quite frustrating.

And there are reasons for going to law school that aren't purely rooted in money.

If it's public interest shitlaw, that's different.

[Matthies]

First of all, congrats to RM.

Second, I think this is the type of story that should give a lot of people serious pause with respect to the "biglaw or bust" mindset (see: DF). It isn't strictly "Biglaw v. Shitlaw." Is it going to take RM longer to pay off his debts than biglaw folks? Yes. But unlike the killself associates in biglaw, it sound like he is getting to do some meaningful work and build his career. As Matthies and many others have argued, there is life beyond biglaw, and even if you aren't "models and bottles" straight out of law school, there are opportunities to be had.

I don't think anybody should pile up six-figure debt to do shitlaw.

I don't really view a 70k salary as shitlaw, especially considering that the opportunity for career advancement is often a lot better than non-lawyer jobs. This expectation that we should all be cashing 160k salaries upon graduation is really pervasive on this site, and it is really quite frustrating.

And there are reasons for going to law school that aren't purely rooted in money.

If it's public interest shitlaw, that's different.

That's what i do! BTW you know, just throwing this out there, you don't have to borrow all the money to go to law school, you cou;d I dunno, WORK, go part time, save some money, take a scholoy. But hey what do i know.

[98234872348]

What is the TLS definition of "Midlaw?"


Thanks Steve.. Looking forward to starting..

It's a magical place. You work about 40-50 hours a week, and make between $90,000-$159,999.99 and ride to work on a unicorn/pegasus, Sure you don't make quite as much as a biglaw lawyer but you don't have to put in the grueling hours or deal with angry, bitter, partners dumping stuff on you at the last minute. In midlaw they motivate through hugs and free massages every Friday!

TBF as much as it might pain some of the more skeptical TLSers out there, I work at a firm that is pretty comparable to this.

Many lawyers here work about 50 hours a week (although obviously that is subject to increase depending on their particular caseloads) and are compensated between 100k and 200k. GRANTED this firm really doesn't seem to be too keen on hiring recent graduates and prefers lawyers to lateral in with a couple of years of work experience, and some lawyers here lateraled from "big law" (although we're not talking firms like skadden or kirkland), but I am just saying. These kind of jobs, though likely rare, do exist. In addition, which the environment isn't all hugs and cheerfulness, everyone is very congenial and there isn't a sense of cutthroat competition in any measure of the phrase.

We don't have any unicorns though...

[mallard]

That's what i do! BTW you know, just throwing this out there, you don't have to borrow all the money to go to law school, you cou;d I dunno, WORK, go part time, save some money, take a scholoy. But hey what do i know.

Right... I said I don't think anybody should pile up six-figure debt to do non-public interest shitlaw. Nothing about public interest or law school without debt.

[UrbanAchievers]

RM, congrats on the move. I almost always find your posts on this site thought provoking in some way, and I hope you continue to contribute to this site.

You mentioned that a better work/life balance was a motivating factor for the move, but I believe you indicated that you foresee no decline in total hours worked per week. If not hours worked, what are the factors at the new job that allow for a better work/life balance?

Thanks for your input.

[romothesavior]

That's what i do! BTW you know, just throwing this out there, you don't have to borrow all the money to go to law school, you cou;d I dunno, WORK, go part time, save some money, take a scholoy. But hey what do i know.

Right... I said I don't think anybody should pile up six-figure debt to do non-public interest shitlaw. Nothing about public interest or law school without debt.

So a 70k starting salary at a job where you get real hands on experience the opportunity for growth and advancement is shitlaw? Hmmm... Okay. I guess I just don't have the lofty aspirations of a Harvard man. I think my parents would beat me if I whined about taking a job like that. If I can get 70k a year with a 10-15k bonus in the city I want to practice in, I'd say, "Where do I sign?"

[reasonable_man]

RM, congrats on the move. I almost always find your posts on this site thought provoking in some way, and I hope you continue to contribute to this site.

You mentioned that a better work/life balance was a motivating factor for the move, but I believe you indicated that you foresee no decline in total hours worked per week. If not hours worked, what are the factors at the new job that allow for a better work/life balance?

Thanks for your input.

1) Like the feel of the new office;
2) Nice people;
3) More autonomy (I hate having a boss lol);
4) Better shot at partnership down the line;
5) More work that I am interested in;
6) Lack of complex inter-office political structure that comes along with a 6 person office as opposed to an 80 person office;

[mallard]

That's what i do! BTW you know, just throwing this out there, you don't have to borrow all the money to go to law school, you cou;d I dunno, WORK, go part time, save some money, take a scholoy. But hey what do i know.

Right... I said I don't think anybody should pile up six-figure debt to do non-public interest shitlaw. Nothing about public interest or law school without debt.

So a 70k starting salary at a job where you get real hands on experience the opportunity for growth and advancement is shitlaw? Hmmm... Okay. I guess I just don't have the lofty aspirations of a Harvard man. I think my parents would beat me if I whined about taking a job like that. If I can get 70k a year with a 10-15k bonus in the city I want to practice in, I'd say, "Where do I sign?"

I mean, it might not be. It depends on the firm. My parents didn't have much money either. But they also never had much debt, except, you know, to buy a house and raise a family.

[romothesavior]

I guess this is where I'm coming from... a 70k per year salary with a nice bonus at 25 would be far higher than most of my friends, even after you take out my IBR payment. I'll also be able to do something I want to do and that I have an interest in, and I'll have far more opportunity for advancement than most people at that age. Of course, there are no guarantees for a job like this ITE, but I would jump at the opportunity. I'm certainly not saying this type of opportunity will even be available to me; I'm just arguing against everyone who wants to call this job "shitlaw."

But what do I know? I'm just a naive 0L heading to WUSTTTL. Apparently it is "models and bottles" or killself for just about everyone on TLS. I'm sorry for the pissy attitude, but this site is really wearing me thin the past few days.

[mallard]

I guess this is where I'm coming from... a 70k per year salary with a nice bonus at 25 would be far higher than most of my friends, even after you take out my IBR payment. I'll also be able to do something I want to do and that I have an interest in, and I'll have far more opportunity for advancement than most people at that age. Of course, there are no guarantees for a job like this ITE, but I would jump at the opportunity. I'm certainly not saying this type of opportunity will even be available to me; I'm just arguing against everyone who wants to call this job "shitlaw."

But what do I know? I'm just a naive 0L heading to WUSTTTL. Apparently it is "models and bottles" or killself for just about everyone on TLS. I'm sorry for the pissy attitude, but this site is really wearing me thin the past few days.

I believe shitlaw refers to the kinds of cases you take on, not how you're compensated. I could be absolutely wrong.

[romothesavior]

I guess this is where I'm coming from... a 70k per year salary with a nice bonus at 25 would be far higher than most of my friends, even after you take out my IBR payment. I'll also be able to do something I want to do and that I have an interest in, and I'll have far more opportunity for advancement than most people at that age. Of course, there are no guarantees for a job like this ITE, but I would jump at the opportunity. I'm certainly not saying this type of opportunity will even be available to me; I'm just arguing against everyone who wants to call this job "shitlaw."

But what do I know? I'm just a naive 0L heading to WUSTTTL. Apparently it is "models and bottles" or killself for just about everyone on TLS. I'm sorry for the pissy attitude, but this site is really wearing me thin the past few days.

I believe shitlaw refers to the kinds of cases you take on, not how you're compensated. I could be absolutely wrong.

So would you say that the cases RM has dealt with (based on his description) were shitlaw?

And what kinds of cases would be considered shit, in your opinion? DUI/traffic court types of things, or anything that doesn't involved Fortune 500 companies and massive mergers? I feel like we are talking right past each other in a lot of ways.

[Patriot1208]

That's what i do! BTW you know, just throwing this out there, you don't have to borrow all the money to go to law school, you cou;d I dunno, WORK, go part time, save some money, take a scholoy. But hey what do i know.

Right... I said I don't think anybody should pile up six-figure debt to do non-public interest shitlaw. Nothing about public interest or law school without debt.

So a 70k starting salary at a job where you get real hands on experience the opportunity for growth and advancement is shitlaw? Hmmm... Okay. I guess I just don't have the lofty aspirations of a Harvard man. I think my parents would beat me if I whined about taking a job like that. If I can get 70k a year with a 10-15k bonus in the city I want to practice in, I'd say, "Where do I sign?"

The problem is these jobs are far more rare than 160k jobs. Generally, it seems its 125k+ (depending on city) or 40k starting.

[98234872348]

I guess this is where I'm coming from... a 70k per year salary with a nice bonus at 25 would be far higher than most of my friends, even after you take out my IBR payment. I'll also be able to do something I want to do and that I have an interest in, and I'll have far more opportunity for advancement than most people at that age. Of course, there are no guarantees for a job like this ITE, but I would jump at the opportunity. I'm certainly not saying this type of opportunity will even be available to me; I'm just arguing against everyone who wants to call this job "shitlaw."

But what do I know? I'm just a naive 0L heading to WUSTTTL. Apparently it is "models and bottles" or killself for just about everyone on TLS. I'm sorry for the pissy attitude, but this site is really wearing me thin the past few days.

I believe shitlaw refers to the kinds of cases you take on, not how you're compensated. I could be absolutely wrong.

This has generally been my experience with the term. I believe "shit law" as it is used on this site refers to insurance defense, dui defense, criminal defense, bankruptcy, workers' compensation, personal injury, doc review, etc.

Although, as with anything else on TLS, this term seems to be nebulous and subjective.

[mallard]

Yeah, I've lost sight of what my argument is. Anyway, $70k is pretty close to the lower end of the bimodal distribution. I'm not sure what the effect of IBR is, but it doesn't liquidate the debt, does it?

[romothesavior]

I guess this is where I'm coming from... a 70k per year salary with a nice bonus at 25 would be far higher than most of my friends, even after you take out my IBR payment. I'll also be able to do something I want to do and that I have an interest in, and I'll have far more opportunity for advancement than most people at that age. Of course, there are no guarantees for a job like this ITE, but I would jump at the opportunity. I'm certainly not saying this type of opportunity will even be available to me; I'm just arguing against everyone who wants to call this job "shitlaw."

But what do I know? I'm just a naive 0L heading to WUSTTTL. Apparently it is "models and bottles" or killself for just about everyone on TLS. I'm sorry for the pissy attitude, but this site is really wearing me thin the past few days.

I believe shitlaw refers to the kinds of cases you take on, not how you're compensated. I could be absolutely wrong.

This has generally been my experience with the term. I believe "shit law" as it is used on this site refers to insurance defense, dui defense, criminal defense, bankruptcy, workers' compensation, personal injury, doc review, etc.

Although, as with anything else on TLS, this term seems to be nebulous and subjective.

I do agree that there are some shitty law jobs in the fields you described, but I also know there are some people making damn good money in those fields. I personally would not want to work in those fields, but all hope is not lost either if that's where a person ends up.

[TonyDigital]

Congrats RM...I have always enjoyed your posts.

As far as the shitlaw, midlaw arguments...who really cares? If RM is happy with his move then let him be happy with his move. Seems like the one guy calling RM out for being "misleading" wants to whip out a ruler and start a manhood contest. It's quite childish.