Page 1 of 2

5H/5P at HLS; reaches, targets, safeties?

Posted: Mon Jun 14, 2010 11:27 pm
by Anonymous User
NYC/DC. Not sure about a practice area yet. Very conversant with Vault, Chambers, etc.

Re: 5H/5P at HLS; reaches, targets, safeties?

Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2010 12:02 am
by Anonymous User
If it helps, that should be somewhat above median.

Re: 5H/5P at HLS; reaches, targets, safeties?

Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2010 10:17 am
by Anonymous User
v10 is a moderate reach but doable. wlrk, sullcrom, etc. likely out; same with WC D.C. and other like top firms in primary markets.

where did you get your info about the curve? please share.

Re: 5H/5P at HLS; reaches, targets, safeties?

Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2010 10:50 pm
by Cleareyes
Anonymous User wrote:v10 is a moderate reach but doable. wlrk, sullcrom, etc. likely out; same with WC D.C. and other like top firms in primary markets.

where did you get your info about the curve? please share.


My guess would be assumption based on the way classes are curved.

Re: 5H/5P at HLS; reaches, targets, safeties?

Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2010 1:24 am
by dbt
I think you'll get V20. V10 are probably generally reaches.

Re: 5H/5P at HLS; reaches, targets, safeties?

Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2010 1:27 am
by Anonymous User
dbt wrote:I think you'll get V20. V10 are probably generally reaches.


Now wait a minute, given the other active thread on grades and OCI at YLS, how does straight P's at YLS essentially = 5H/5P from HLS?

Re: 5H/5P at HLS; reaches, targets, safeties?

Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2010 1:30 am
by dbt
Anonymous User wrote:
dbt wrote:I think you'll get V20. V10 are probably generally reaches.


Now wait a minute, given the other active thread on grades and OCI at YLS, how does straight P's at YLS essentially = 5H/5P from HLS?


Is 5Hs/5Ps slightly above median at Harvard? Then, assuming straight P's at Yale is just below median (which I think is what that thread decided on), you're asking whether just above median at Harvard = just below median at Yale.

I would guess no. Yale seems to be in a different league than any school. But by all means, apply to Skadden, etc. I'm just saying that according to our stats, for V10 generally (Skadden again seems to be an exception), you're going to be up against top 15-20% at NYU. In that case, V20 sounds like a good bet for you, and V10 sounds like reaches.

Re: 5H/5P at HLS; reaches, targets, safeties?

Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2010 7:16 am
by thesealocust
edit: n/m

Re: 5H/5P at HLS; reaches, targets, safeties?

Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2010 9:11 am
by Anonymous User
pretty sure it's lower than top quarter.

Re: 5H/5P at HLS; reaches, targets, safeties?

Posted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 1:32 pm
by BLS2010
Is there any reliable way to gauge class rank with the new HLS grading system? If not, does anyone know how employers evaluate our grades? How, if at all, do dean's scholar prizes factor into the equation?

PS - Does anybody know what the curve was like this year? Are professors still giving out LPs after they became discretionary? Are there any useful self-reported surveys out there?

Re: 5H/5P at HLS; reaches, targets, safeties?

Posted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 1:57 pm
by Cleareyes
BLS2010 wrote:Is there any reliable way to gauge class rank with the new HLS grading system? If not, does anyone know how employers evaluate our grades? How, if at all, do dean's scholar prizes factor into the equation?

PS - Does anybody know what the curve was like this year? Are professors still giving out LPs after they became discretionary? Are there any useful self-reported surveys out there?


The best way to gauge class rank would probably be to look at another school that has ranked classes and a somewhat analogous grading system (not H vs P but rather some grade cutoff around 37%) and see how their curve works.

I would think employers evaluate our grades based on other transcripts they see. They don't know where you are in the class but they have a rough idea of where you are compared to other HLS candidates who've applied to them.

Professors are still giving out LPs, but not all of them are doing so, and I doubt many are giving out 8% LPs.

x

Posted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 3:16 pm
by APimpNamedSlickback
x

Re: 5H/5P at HLS; reaches, targets, safeties?

Posted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 3:25 pm
by Cleareyes
APimpNamedSlickback wrote:wait, so just to be clear, a full 37% or so of the students in each class receive Hs?! Does this vary across profs and classes? is there a mandated percentage of students to whom professors have no choice but to give high passes?

For some reason, I thought a much, much lower percentage of kids managed to do that well in a given class.


my understanding is that it's not strictly mandated but almost all professors give out the full complement of Hs they can. And yes it's 37%

x

Posted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 3:30 pm
by APimpNamedSlickback
x

Re: 5H/5P at HLS; reaches, targets, safeties?

Posted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 4:31 pm
by Anonymous User
dbt wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
dbt wrote:I think you'll get V20. V10 are probably generally reaches.


Now wait a minute, given the other active thread on grades and OCI at YLS, how does straight P's at YLS essentially = 5H/5P from HLS?


Is 5Hs/5Ps slightly above median at Harvard? Then, assuming straight P's at Yale is just below median (which I think is what that thread decided on), you're asking whether just above median at Harvard = just below median at Yale.

I would guess no. Yale seems to be in a different league than any school. But by all means, apply to Skadden, etc. I'm just saying that according to our stats, for V10 generally (Skadden again seems to be an exception), you're going to be up against top 15-20% at NYU. In that case, V20 sounds like a good bet for you, and V10 sounds like reaches.


Straight Ps at Yale can mean top ~40% to anything above bottom 10% given how the discretionary nature of H is awarded and how seldom an L is awarded (or whatever the equivalent is). To equate it to a 5H/5P at HLS which is most likely top 30% (H's are typically concentrated and seldom independent of one another), is ridiculous.

Re: 5H/5P at HLS; reaches, targets, safeties?

Posted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 4:36 pm
by Anonymous User
ITE all schools want their 1Ls grades to look as strong as possible. There is no way that straight P's is top 40% at Yale. This is the same rationale that led HLS to drop the hard 8% requirement for LPs. It's impossible to know exactly what the curve is at either but straight P's at YLS sounds pretty low. The main consideration though is that bottom of the class at YLS is still going to be highly prized by most firms, I would imagine.

Re: 5H/5P at HLS; reaches, targets, safeties?

Posted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 5:15 pm
by Anonymous User
Take it how you will, but a friend of a friend (so doubt it already) apparently came up with a way to, in his opinion, mathematically model the HLS grade distribution and grouping of grades and said that graduation honors (top ~40%) means about 1/3 of a person's credits are H's. I don't know if I believe him, but that's what he said. So, my guess if this is right is that half and half puts you in the top third.

Re: 5H/5P at HLS; reaches, targets, safeties?

Posted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 5:32 pm
by Anonymous User
Hey anyone out there with LPs? What's your list looking like?

Re: 5H/5P at HLS; reaches, targets, safeties?

Posted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 6:06 pm
by BLS2010
I doubt a 5H/5P breakdown is top third. If 37.5% of grades are Hs, the average HLS student should be getting around two Hs per semester. Of course, depending on how concentrated Hs are, average may be better than median.

Re: 5H/5P at HLS; reaches, targets, safeties?

Posted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 6:32 pm
by Anonymous User
FWIW, I wrote a computer model that assumes each class is 40% Hs, 60% Ps, and no LPs. It assigns N students a rank from 1 to N in terms of ability and simulates their grades in ten classes where your grade in each class is the average of N and some random number also between 1 and N. Top 40% of grades gets an H in that simulated class and everyone else gets a P.

I did a run with N=10,000 and got that 5Hs/5Ps is between top 25% and top 35%. Median is 3 Hs and closer to the 2/3 cutoff than the 3/4 cutoff. In reality, it's probably more impressive because professors do give out LPs and there's probably more randomness than I'm accounting for (The fact that I take an average of ability and randomness is kind of an arbitrary assumption, but that creates an R between ability and grades of .7, which is already higher than the R between LSAT+UGPA and grades, which I think is .49. More randomness makes above-median grades look better and below-median grades look worse). So takeaway: Under conservative assumptions, OP is around top 30%.

Re: 5H/5P at HLS; reaches, targets, safeties?

Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 10:19 am
by Anonymous User
dear anonymous computer maven,

could you put your model to work to predict latin honors cut-offs at graduation for HLS class of 2011 onward (and, if you're feeling extra helpful, post-2L distributions for our friends in clerkship land)? I imagine this will be more difficult than assessing the post-1L curve because students have differential course loads, and many seminars are uncurved (assume all Hs if you want the estimate to be extremely conservative). but most students take a least a couple of hard-curve classes each 2L/3L semester, and an average of 14 hours or so seems reasonable to me.

Such an exercise would be greatly appreciated. your program will probably yield a better estimate than those i've heard.

Re: 5H/5P at HLS; reaches, targets, safeties?

Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 10:24 am
by Anonymous User
Dean's Scholar prizes are just tie-breakers for latin honors' purposes. They have no GPA effect otherwise. I'm sure employers are happy to see them, but they all they do in terms of ranking is bump you above those with identical H-and-P grades, i.e. 5H (no DS)/5P < 5H (all DS)/5 P < 6H (no DS)/4P.

I personally doubt DS amount to anything more than strong interview talking points.

Re: 5H/5P at HLS; reaches, targets, safeties?

Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 10:26 am
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote:Dean's Scholar prizes are just tie-breakers for latin honors' purposes. They have no GPA effect otherwise. I'm sure employers are happy to see them, but they all they do in terms of ranking is bump you above those with identical H-and-P grades, i.e. 5H (no DS)/5P < 5H (all DS)/5 P < 6H (no DS)/4P.

I personally doubt DS amount to anything more than strong interview talking points.


OP here (I think!). I don't think this is really true, but DS prizes tended to cluster around people with a lot of Hs anyhow.

I think you guys are being a bit too optimistic about my rank and chances, but I appreciate the encouragement!

Re: 5H/5P at HLS; reaches, targets, safeties?

Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 10:58 am
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote:dear anonymous computer maven,

could you put your model to work to predict latin honors cut-offs at graduation for HLS class of 2011 onward (and, if you're feeling extra helpful, post-2L distributions for our friends in clerkship land)? I imagine this will be more difficult than assessing the post-1L curve because students have differential course loads, and many seminars are uncurved (assume all Hs if you want the estimate to be extremely conservative). but most students take a least a couple of hard-curve classes each 2L/3L semester, and an average of 14 hours or so seems reasonable to me.

Such an exercise would be greatly appreciated. your program will probably yield a better estimate than those i've heard.


Honestly, this would require a lot more coding than I have the time and probably skill to do, especially since as you note people take different courseloads with different curves, different grades, different numbers of credits, etc. An above poster said he has a model that says 1/3rd Hs is cum laude (top 41%). That's consistent with the conservative assumptions my model, where the cum laude cutoff at the end of 1L year is 4Hs, but closer to the 3/4 cutoff than the 4/5 cutoff. I think you're probably best off asking your friends who are graduating if they are (magna) cum laude or not and what their grades are :). My best guess is that 35-40% Hs gets you cum laude and 70-75% Hs gets you magna cum laude.

Re: 5H/5P at HLS; reaches, targets, safeties?

Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 10:59 am
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Dean's Scholar prizes are just tie-breakers for latin honors' purposes. They have no GPA effect otherwise. I'm sure employers are happy to see them, but they all they do in terms of ranking is bump you above those with identical H-and-P grades, i.e. 5H (no DS)/5P < 5H (all DS)/5 P < 6H (no DS)/4P.

I personally doubt DS amount to anything more than strong interview talking points.


OP here (I think!). I don't think this is really true, but DS prizes tended to cluster around people with a lot of Hs anyhow.

I think you guys are being a bit too optimistic about my rank and chances, but I appreciate the encouragement!


I used to think that, but then I had a semester with only DSs and Ps, no regular Hs. I think grades at Harvard are more random than might at first appear.