All this talk about Biglaw... But what about Midlaw????

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MorningHood
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All this talk about Biglaw... But what about Midlaw????

Postby MorningHood » Sun Jun 13, 2010 11:20 pm

There's a ton of information about Biglaw, but can someone please point towards the right direction in terms of finding information about Midlaw (i.e. TLS posts, legal tabloids/blogs, online articles, etc.)?

Also, some random questions for anyone willing to take a stab:

1. What I've read about Midlaw in passing is that the hours could be just as brutal as biglaw, but with substantially lower pay. Is this generally true?
2. Given the fact that Midlaw has much less resources then biglaw, I expect that they might be less willing to hire inexperienced candidates. Does this mean that it might be just as difficult to obtain a job at midlaw as it is for biglaw?

Thank you!

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romothesavior
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Re: All this talk about Biglaw... But what about Midlaw????

Postby romothesavior » Sun Jun 13, 2010 11:22 pm

ZOMG THERE IS NO MIDLAW!!!!

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thesealocust
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Re: All this talk about Biglaw... But what about Midlaw????

Postby thesealocust » Sun Jun 13, 2010 11:23 pm

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Hiei
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Re: All this talk about Biglaw... But what about Midlaw????

Postby Hiei » Sun Jun 13, 2010 11:25 pm

Just so you know, most people on TLS consider any law firm job outside of NYC, DC, and Cali to be "midlaw". This includes working at firms like Vinson Elkins in Houston, King and Spalding in Atlanta, and Jones Day in Cleveland where your salary is only slightly below (actually in Texas oftentimes the same) that it would be in NYC/DC/Cali. Are you talking about firms like this? It isn't too hard to find info on those firms; it's more difficult to find info on the firms that pay less than 100K but greater than say 60K.
Last edited by Hiei on Sun Jun 13, 2010 11:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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thesealocust
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Re: All this talk about Biglaw... But what about Midlaw????

Postby thesealocust » Sun Jun 13, 2010 11:27 pm

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Grizz
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Re: All this talk about Biglaw... But what about Midlaw????

Postby Grizz » Sun Jun 13, 2010 11:29 pm

Hiei wrote:Just so you know, most people on TLS consider any law firm job outside of NYC, DC, and Cali to be "midlaw". This includes working at firms like Vinson Elkins in Houston, King and Spalding in Atlanta, and Jones Day in Cleveland where your salary is only slightly below (actually in Texas oftentimes the same) what it would be in NYC/DC/Cali. Are you talking about firms like this? It isn't too hard to find info on those firms; it's more difficult to find info on the firms that pay less than 100K but greater than say 60K.


I don't think anyone considers any of those firms midlaw. Lulz.

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Hiei
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Re: All this talk about Biglaw... But what about Midlaw????

Postby Hiei » Sun Jun 13, 2010 11:31 pm

thesealocust wrote:
Hiei wrote:Just so you know, most people on TLS consider any law firm job outside of NYC, DC, and Cali to be "midlaw".


Total fucking bullshit. TLS isn't exactly the brain trust, but even taken collectively we've figured out that there is 'big law' across the country, just higher concentrations in big cities. When people use the term 'big law' they're basically trying to proxy for 'well compensated entry level legal work in the private sector'.

Hiei wrote:It isn't too hard to find info on those firms; it's more difficult to find info on the firms that pay less than 100K but greater than say 60K.


Exactly.



Hey that's what I thought too but I remember this renzo guy giving me a long spiel on how anything outside of NYC/DC/Cali was "by definition not BigLaw" and to be fair he's not even close to the only one I've seen make that claim. People often use this technique to claim that you have a "better shot" at biglaw from NYU than from Michigan, UVA, Penn,and Berkeley.

Aqualibrium
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Re: All this talk about Biglaw... But what about Midlaw????

Postby Aqualibrium » Sun Jun 13, 2010 11:31 pm

IMO, most places in the South are "mid-law." 10-50 person firms that pay as little as 75k and as much as 100k.
Last edited by Aqualibrium on Sun Jun 13, 2010 11:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Hiei
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Re: All this talk about Biglaw... But what about Midlaw????

Postby Hiei » Sun Jun 13, 2010 11:32 pm

Aqualibrium wrote:IMO, most places in the South are "mid-law" imo. 10-50 person firms that pay as little as 75k and as much as 100k.



See what I'm talking about.......

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Re: All this talk about Biglaw... But what about Midlaw????

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Jun 13, 2010 11:33 pm

What IS midlaw? It is a bit of semantics, but I wondering about a firm I am interviewing with that has 250 attorneys firmwide and pays 15k less than market (with a 1750 billable requirement). Is that midlaw? Or biglaw? Or is a boutique because it only does one specific type of law?

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MorningHood
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Re: All this talk about Biglaw... But what about Midlaw????

Postby MorningHood » Sun Jun 13, 2010 11:34 pm

Well, then how much more difficult is it to get hired at a smaller, let's say boutique law firm, than it is to get hired by biglaw?

I have a feeling that boutiques might not welcome the idea of training recent graduates.

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thesealocust
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Re: All this talk about Biglaw... But what about Midlaw????

Postby thesealocust » Sun Jun 13, 2010 11:36 pm

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Hiei
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Re: All this talk about Biglaw... But what about Midlaw????

Postby Hiei » Sun Jun 13, 2010 11:38 pm

MorningHood wrote:Well, then how much more difficult is it to get hired at a smaller, let's say boutique law firm, than it is to get hired by biglaw?

I have a feeling that boutiques might not welcome the idea of training recent graduates.


Usually they are much harder to get hired at because your partnership chances are quite high, the salaries are the same, and the work is substantive and fascinating (and provides awesome lateral opportunities).

http://www.bartlit-beck.com/
http://www.susmangodfrey.com/
--LinkRemoved--
http://www.brsfirm.com/
http://www.gibbsbruns.com/
http://www.bmelaw.com/

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thesealocust
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Re: All this talk about Biglaw... But what about Midlaw????

Postby thesealocust » Sun Jun 13, 2010 11:39 pm

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Aqualibrium
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Re: All this talk about Biglaw... But what about Midlaw????

Postby Aqualibrium » Sun Jun 13, 2010 11:43 pm

Hiei wrote:
Aqualibrium wrote:IMO, most places in the South are "mid-law" imo. 10-50 person firms that pay as little as 75k and as much as 100k.



See what I'm talking about.......


I initially started the sentence with the word "most." I instead decided that I would like to start it with "imo." I forgot to remove the latter "imo" after adding it to the beginning of the sentence. Don't see how that makes what I said any more or less right/wrong.

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Hiei
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Re: All this talk about Biglaw... But what about Midlaw????

Postby Hiei » Sun Jun 13, 2010 11:45 pm

Aqualibrium wrote:
Hiei wrote:
Aqualibrium wrote:IMO, most places in the South are "mid-law" imo. 10-50 person firms that pay as little as 75k and as much as 100k.



See what I'm talking about.......


I initially started the sentence with the word "most." I instead decided that I would like to start it with "imo." I forgot to remove the latter "imo" after adding it to the beginning of the sentence. Don't see how that makes what I said any more or less right/wrong.


I'm not saying whether you are right or wrong; if you look at my first post my comment was about what a lot of people on TLS consider biglaw.

Renzo
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Re: All this talk about Biglaw... But what about Midlaw????

Postby Renzo » Sun Jun 13, 2010 11:45 pm

Hiei wrote:Hey that's what I thought too but I remember this renzo guy giving me a long spiel on how anything outside of NYC/DC/Cali was "by definition not BigLaw" and to be fair he's not even close to the only one I've seen make that claim. People often use this technique to claim that you have a "better shot" at biglaw from NYU than from Michigan, UVA, Penn,and Berkeley.


I dare you to find where I made anything even resembling such a statement. If you can find a post where I say biglaw=only Cali, NY, and DC, I'll change my avatar to a self-tar of me wearing women's underwear.

I have said that not all the NLJ 250 are "big" and therefore not "biglaw."

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fenderjsm88
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Re: All this talk about Biglaw... But what about Midlaw????

Postby fenderjsm88 » Sun Jun 13, 2010 11:48 pm

My best friend's dad is a partner in a "midlaw" firm in Baltimore. I don't know exactly what his salary is, but it's definitely over 100k. They have about 50 attorneys. They hire a few (less than 10) summer associates each year, and they usually plan on hiring those students as full-time lawyers when they graduate. My friend's dad claims that his is a pretty typical mid-sized firm, but I don't know if that's accurate or not. Also, I think on average he works less than 60 hrs. a week.

Aqualibrium
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Re: All this talk about Biglaw... But what about Midlaw????

Postby Aqualibrium » Sun Jun 13, 2010 11:48 pm

Hiei wrote:
Aqualibrium wrote:
Hiei wrote:
Aqualibrium wrote:IMO, most places in the South are "mid-law" imo. 10-50 person firms that pay as little as 75k and as much as 100k.



See what I'm talking about.......


I initially started the sentence with the word "most." I instead decided that I would like to start it with "imo." I forgot to remove the latter "imo" after adding it to the beginning of the sentence. Don't see how that makes what I said any more or less right/wrong.


I'm not saying whether you are right or wrong; if you look at my first post my comment was about what a lot of people on TLS consider biglaw.



Excuse me then...I don't necessarily think that anywhere outside the major cities is mid-law though. I just know from my experience that most of the firms I've encountered in the South are these 10-50 man firms that can't really be defined as big law, but are definitely not small time.

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thesealocust
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Re: All this talk about Biglaw... But what about Midlaw????

Postby thesealocust » Sun Jun 13, 2010 11:49 pm

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Renzo
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Re: All this talk about Biglaw... But what about Midlaw????

Postby Renzo » Sun Jun 13, 2010 11:59 pm

thesealocust wrote:
Renzo wrote:
Hiei wrote:Hey that's what I thought too but I remember this renzo guy giving me a long spiel on how anything outside of NYC/DC/Cali was "by definition not BigLaw" and to be fair he's not even close to the only one I've seen make that claim. People often use this technique to claim that you have a "better shot" at biglaw from NYU than from Michigan, UVA, Penn,and Berkeley.


I dare you to find where I made anything even resembling such a statement. If you can find a post where I say biglaw=only Cali, NY, and DC, I'll change my avatar to a self-tar of me wearing women's underwear.

I have said that not all the NLJ 250 are "big" and therefore not "biglaw."


Zuh? The smallest NLJ 250 firm has ~180 attorneys, IIRC. How the hell do you define big?

Yeah, but Jones Day employs like 2200 or something, so it's relative.

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thesealocust
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Re: All this talk about Biglaw... But what about Midlaw????

Postby thesealocust » Mon Jun 14, 2010 12:01 am

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Renzo
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Re: All this talk about Biglaw... But what about Midlaw????

Postby Renzo » Mon Jun 14, 2010 12:08 am

thesealocust wrote:And Wachtell and W&C are both around 200. Seriously, if you're just looking at law firm size, I fail to see how any NLJ 250 firm misses the target of "big" considering how many firms there are out there with <<<< 50 attorneys.

If anything bigger than 50 lawyers is "big," there really is no such thing as "midlaw."

If I recall, what I tried to say in the other thread is that if you subtract the non-market paying "midlaw" jobs from the NLJ250, and add back in the market-paying boutique jobs, it's probably a wash, so the NLJ250 is a pretty good proxy for the number of "biglaw" jobs out there.

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thesealocust
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Re: All this talk about Biglaw... But what about Midlaw????

Postby thesealocust » Mon Jun 14, 2010 12:11 am

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Renzo
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Re: All this talk about Biglaw... But what about Midlaw????

Postby Renzo » Mon Jun 14, 2010 12:19 am

thesealocust wrote:
Renzo wrote:
thesealocust wrote:And Wachtell and W&C are both around 200. Seriously, if you're just looking at law firm size, I fail to see how any NLJ 250 firm misses the target of "big" considering how many firms there are out there with <<<< 50 attorneys.

If anything bigger than 50 lawyers is "big," there really is no such thing as "midlaw."

If I recall, what I tried to say in the other thread is that if you subtract the non-market paying "midlaw" jobs from the NLJ250, and add back in the market-paying boutique jobs, it's probably a wash, so the NLJ250 is a pretty good proxy for the number of "biglaw" jobs out there.


viewtopic.php?f=2&t=80439&p=1875304

I was gonna say TL,DR. Then I saw:
thesealocust wrote:For the tl;dr crowd - I took the NLJ 250 data and calculated some actual stats to help settle the 'but the NLJ 250 is too east coast centric / includes many non 'market' paying firms / waaaaah' disputes that come up all the time on TLS.


DAMMIT! If you're gonna give me a TL,DR summary, I wan't the answer, not the question!




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