Does top 15% at MVP but no WE have a chance at elite firms?

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RVP11
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Re: Does top 15% at MVP but no WE have a chance at elite firms?

Postby RVP11 » Wed Jun 09, 2010 4:27 pm

Hiei wrote:
TTT-LS wrote:
MarkTwain wrote:Top 15% with LR at a T10 isn't even close to landing a job at W&C or Wachtell.

TITCR. That said, OP is pretty close to a lock for multiple V20 offers. S/he should still bid widely in the V100 as previously suggested, however, just as a fallback.



http://www.wc.com/attorneys-search.html ... ton=Search

You can look at those profiles and see that a number of those people were outside of the top 10 percent (ie not Coif). And for the record, although I shouldn't be putting this out there, I was given the GPA range of people hired from UVA at Williams and Conolly over the past few years and they definitely hired people with grades in the top 15 percent range. Being hired doesn't always come down to nothing but grades. There are other things that come into play when you pass a certain GPA threshold.


Isn't Coif given for grades at graduation? If so, someone could be well in the top 10% during OCI but later fall out of it.

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Hiei
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Re: Does top 15% at MVP but no WE have a chance at elite firms?

Postby Hiei » Wed Jun 09, 2010 4:59 pm

TTT-LS wrote:
Hiei wrote:Being hired doesn't always come down to nothing but grades. There are other things that come into play when you pass a certain GPA threshold.

I agree. At the very highest levels, ridiculously high numbers aren't sufficient--though they are often necessary. Even at firms like the ones discussed above, there will be a few outliers. Those exceptions don't mean the general rule is invalid, however. If we had a complete set of application data for the last, say, 10 years, I bet we'd see just how hard it is to land one of those jobs with just top 15% from MVP + LR. At least as to my school, I can speak somewhat authoritatively on what it takes to get W&C, since I had both a callback and offer from them my 2L year.



This is all that I was trying to say--that there are outliers and that other things come into play; not that top 15 percent at MVPB is a lock for those jobs.

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invisiblesun
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Re: Does top 15% at MVP but no WE have a chance at elite firms?

Postby invisiblesun » Wed Jun 09, 2010 5:02 pm

RVP11 wrote:
Hiei wrote:
TTT-LS wrote:
MarkTwain wrote:Top 15% with LR at a T10 isn't even close to landing a job at W&C or Wachtell.

TITCR. That said, OP is pretty close to a lock for multiple V20 offers. S/he should still bid widely in the V100 as previously suggested, however, just as a fallback.



http://www.wc.com/attorneys-search.html ... ton=Search

You can look at those profiles and see that a number of those people were outside of the top 10 percent (ie not Coif). And for the record, although I shouldn't be putting this out there, I was given the GPA range of people hired from UVA at Williams and Conolly over the past few years and they definitely hired people with grades in the top 15 percent range. Being hired doesn't always come down to nothing but grades. There are other things that come into play when you pass a certain GPA threshold.


Isn't Coif given for grades at graduation? If so, someone could be well in the top 10% during OCI but later fall out of it.


Possible, but unlikely considering most law students get better grades in their 2L and 3L years than in their 1L year. This might explain some of the cases but I'd wager against that theory explaining the majority of them.

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Re: Does top 15% at MVP but no WE have a chance at elite firms?

Postby RVP11 » Wed Jun 09, 2010 5:34 pm

invisiblesun wrote:
RVP11 wrote:Isn't Coif given for grades at graduation? If so, someone could be well in the top 10% during OCI but later fall out of it.


Possible, but unlikely considering most law students get better grades in their 2L and 3L years than in their 1L year. This might explain some of the cases but I'd wager against that theory explaining the majority of them.


Think about this logically for a little bit then get back to us. How does the fact that most people get better grades after 1L affect how many people fall out of the top 10%?

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Re: Does top 15% at MVP but no WE have a chance at elite firms?

Postby invisiblesun » Wed Jun 09, 2010 7:50 pm

RVP11 wrote:
invisiblesun wrote:
RVP11 wrote:Isn't Coif given for grades at graduation? If so, someone could be well in the top 10% during OCI but later fall out of it.


Possible, but unlikely considering most law students get better grades in their 2L and 3L years than in their 1L year. This might explain some of the cases but I'd wager against that theory explaining the majority of them.


Think about this logically for a little bit then get back to us. How does the fact that most people get better grades after 1L affect how many people fall out of the top 10%?


I've heard from numerous T14 grads that for the vast majority of law students, their ranking in the class rarely changes dramatically during their 2L and 3L years. You're suggesting that a non-trivial amount of these lawyers had top 10% GPAs during OCI and then dropped out of the top 10% - think about that logically for a little bit. That's highly unlikely unless for some reason all of these lawyers were right on the cusp and all subsequently declined in academic performance.

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Re: Does top 15% at MVP but no WE have a chance at elite firms?

Postby RVP11 » Wed Jun 09, 2010 8:01 pm

invisiblesun wrote:I've heard from numerous T14 grads that for the vast majority of law students, their ranking in the class rarely changes dramatically during their 2L and 3L years. You're suggesting that a non-trivial amount of these lawyers had top 10% GPAs during OCI and then dropped out of the top 10% - think about that logically for a little bit. That's highly unlikely unless for some reason all of these lawyers were right on the cusp and all subsequently declined in academic performance.


Yes I am suggesting that. There is undoubtedly going to be movement within the top 10% of the class. When you're ranked that high, it could only take one lackluster semester (say, only getting top quarter grades - NOT a huge slip from top 10% grades at most schools) and you fall out of the top 10%.

I would bet that, at most schools, one third to one half of the people in the top 10% at graduation were not there at the end of 1L. Even one third turnover is significant - enough to show that using Coif or no Coif as a proxy for great grades is far from precise.

And BTW, the nature of the bell curve means there should be a larger number of people on the cusp of the top 10% than people well established within it. Meaning, if 3.7 is the 10% cutoff, there should statistically be way more 3.7-3.8s than 3.9+s, and even more 3.6-3.7s waiting to get up into the top 10%.

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Re: Does top 15% at MVP but no WE have a chance at elite firms?

Postby NYAssociate » Wed Jun 09, 2010 8:25 pm

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Re: Does top 15% at MVP but no WE have a chance at elite firms?

Postby NYAssociate » Wed Jun 09, 2010 8:30 pm

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Re: Does top 15% at MVP but no WE have a chance at elite firms?

Postby thesealocust » Wed Jun 09, 2010 8:52 pm

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Hiei
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Re: Does top 15% at MVP but no WE have a chance at elite firms?

Postby Hiei » Wed Jun 09, 2010 10:56 pm

NYAssociate wrote:I don't understand why people are dividing selectivity by Vault range (i.e., OP will definitely get multiple "V20" offers--TTT-LS said this). There are many historically unselective firms in the V10 (and even V5). And there are some hugely selective firms in the ranks above that. Assuming OP isn't a douche, he/she should get some easy V5 like Skadden or easy V10 like Weil. Top 15% might not give OP shot at Wachtell, but places like DPW, CSM, and even SullCrom are fair game. Top 15% is definitely solid for places like Simpson, Cleary, Kirkland, Paul Weiss, and Debevoise.

I don't think OP's lack of WE will make a huge difference. But aside from that, if he gets rejected from all of the above, except for Wachtell, it won't have been because of his grades.


It comes from not really understanding that firms selectivity and prestige doesn't follow a neat ranking system like law schools do. Just as you say a lot of the V10 really aren't that selective--whereas some firms that don't even make the Vault list are extraordinarily selective (like Kellog Huber).

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Re: Does top 15% at MVP but no WE have a chance at elite firms?

Postby MarkTwain » Thu Jun 10, 2010 1:52 am

One important note regarding UVA: Top 15% doesn't give you a shot at VLR. Certainly you can be top 15% and write on, but otherwise it's top 25 students (6%ish - roughly 3.71+). Those who grade on to VLR definitely have a shot at W&C, and those who write on MAY have a shot (I don't know of anyone in this group). But a top 15% student who is not on VLR? No chance.

Also, when looking at a firm's bios, keep in mind that many attorneys lateral and thus are recruited under completely different conditions than prospective summer assocations (and with different criteria in mind).

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Re: Does top 15% at MVP but no WE have a chance at elite firms?

Postby TTT-LS » Thu Jun 10, 2010 9:08 am

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Hiei
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Re: Does top 15% at MVP but no WE have a chance at elite firms?

Postby Hiei » Thu Jun 10, 2010 12:51 pm

TTT-LS wrote:Thing is, W&C doesn't really hire laterals. IIRC, they've hired one lateral partner in the last decade or so, and a very, very small # of lateral associates.


You beat me to the punch. The smaller litigation firms almost never hire laterals (W&C, Munger, Susman, Kellogg). Most of those non Coif UVA hires at W&C were probably in the top 15 percent and ended up writing on.

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Re: Does top 15% at MVP but no WE have a chance at elite firms?

Postby RVP11 » Thu Jun 10, 2010 12:53 pm

Hiei wrote:
TTT-LS wrote:Thing is, W&C doesn't really hire laterals. IIRC, they've hired one lateral partner in the last decade or so, and a very, very small # of lateral associates.


You beat me to the punch. The smaller litigation firms almost never hire laterals (W&C, Munger, Susman, Kellogg). Most of those non Coif UVA hires at W&C were probably in the top 15 percent and ended up writing on.


Again, I'm fairly sure Coif is a graduation distinction. Those non-Coif UVA people could easily have been grade-on Law Review and then have fallen out of the top 10% before graduation - tons of people do that. I think that's a more likely explanation than UVA folks with high 3.5s at end of 1L magically pulling off W&C offers.

BTW...Kurama?

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Re: Does top 15% at MVP but no WE have a chance at elite firms?

Postby thesealocust » Thu Jun 10, 2010 1:45 pm

nm
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Re: Does top 15% at MVP but no WE have a chance at elite firms?

Postby bk1 » Thu Jun 10, 2010 2:27 pm

When the OP says "no WE" does he/she mean no WE prior to LS or no legal job during 1L summer?

If it's the latter, isn't that the OCI "kiss of death"?

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thesealocust
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Re: Does top 15% at MVP but no WE have a chance at elite firms?

Postby thesealocust » Thu Jun 10, 2010 2:40 pm

nm
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Re: Does top 15% at MVP but no WE have a chance at elite firms?

Postby bk1 » Thu Jun 10, 2010 2:43 pm

thesealocust wrote:Nobody refers to 1L summer as 'WE'. There's a 99% chance they meant no work experience prior to LS. And yes, no legal work during 1L summer is likely to be a kiss of death at OCI.


That is what I thought, but I found it curious that OP would bring up something fairly irrelevant (pre-LS work experience) and thought he/she might be erroneously referring to 1L summer work.

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Re: Does top 15% at MVP but no WE have a chance at elite firms?

Postby RVP11 » Thu Jun 10, 2010 2:54 pm

bk1 wrote:
thesealocust wrote:Nobody refers to 1L summer as 'WE'. There's a 99% chance they meant no work experience prior to LS. And yes, no legal work during 1L summer is likely to be a kiss of death at OCI.


That is what I thought, but I found it curious that OP would bring up something fairly irrelevant (pre-LS work experience) and thought he/she might be erroneously referring to 1L summer work.


How is pre-LS WE "irrelevant?"

I'm not happy with this 0L invasion of the Legal Employment board.

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Re: Does top 15% at MVP but no WE have a chance at elite firms?

Postby bk1 » Thu Jun 10, 2010 2:57 pm

RVP11 wrote:How is pre-LS WE "irrelevant?"

I'm not happy with this 0L invasion of the Legal Employment board.


Apologies, I meant far less relevant than things like grades, 1L summer, etc.

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Re: Does top 15% at MVP but no WE have a chance at elite firms?

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Jun 10, 2010 3:04 pm

MarkTwain wrote:One important note regarding UVA: Top 15% doesn't give you a shot at VLR. Certainly you can be top 15% and write on, but otherwise it's top 25 students (6%ish - roughly 3.71+). Those who grade on to VLR definitely have a shot at W&C, and those who write on MAY have a shot (I don't know of anyone in this group). But a top 15% student who is not on VLR? No chance.

Also, when looking at a firm's bios, keep in mind that many attorneys lateral and thus are recruited under completely different conditions than prospective summer assocations (and with different criteria in mind).


Can I ask, where are you getting this info that a 3.71 is top 6%? I have a 3.72 @ MVP after 1L year and would love to know where I stand re:class rank. Also, is everyone really that sure that a 3.7+ is that safe for the V10? With the economy as it is, and the # of summer associates way down, I have to say I am pretty skeptical about that.

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RVP11
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Re: Does top 15% at MVP but no WE have a chance at elite firms?

Postby RVP11 » Thu Jun 10, 2010 3:06 pm

bk1 wrote:
RVP11 wrote:How is pre-LS WE "irrelevant?"

I'm not happy with this 0L invasion of the Legal Employment board.


Apologies, I meant far less relevant than things like grades, 1L summer, etc.


I'd say it's more relevant than 1L summer in 90% of cases.

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Re: Does top 15% at MVP but no WE have a chance at elite firms?

Postby bk1 » Thu Jun 10, 2010 3:08 pm

RVP11 wrote:I'd say it's more relevant than 1L summer in 90% of cases.


I had no idea. That is an interesting tidbit to know.

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Re: Does top 15% at MVP but no WE have a chance at elite firms?

Postby vanwinkle » Thu Jun 10, 2010 3:38 pm

bk1 wrote:
RVP11 wrote:How is pre-LS WE "irrelevant?"

I'm not happy with this 0L invasion of the Legal Employment board.

Apologies, I meant far less relevant than things like grades, 1L summer, etc.

This is especially untrue ITE. WE has been an important factor for things like finding quality 1L summer work. With places being more selective now, pre-LS WE is a way to stand out even in 1L summer job searches. Thus WE is more relevant than 1L summer experience, since it affects both your 1L summer and later job hunts.

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Re: Does top 15% at MVP but no WE have a chance at elite firms?

Postby thesealocust » Thu Jun 10, 2010 3:57 pm

nm
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