Non-menial work, 8-5, ~$60K start: possible? Forum

[thesealocust]

never mind

[Scallywaggums]

edit: If you want a happy and fulfilling life and MUST work in law, I would say go to the best law school you can, forget the scholarship, find an area of law you're passionate about and WANT to work in for 60+ hours a week, and tailor your social life to fit that. After 5 or 6 years of working, branch off and start your own firm (when you have the capital). Otherwise, I'd say law is not for you.

Sucking it up until I can start my own firm or land a super-competitive gov job seems to be the consensus.

But I'm not sure I can stomach 'go to the best law school, forget the scholly' part... many TLSers, myself included, would not go to a T11-20 at sticker in today's economy.

My hunch at this point would be to take the best non-conditional scholly I could at a T30-100 school... but I'd love more input on this issue.

[icydash]

edit: If you want a happy and fulfilling life and MUST work in law, I would say go to the best law school you can, forget the scholarship, find an area of law you're passionate about and WANT to work in for 60+ hours a week, and tailor your social life to fit that. After 5 or 6 years of working, branch off and start your own firm (when you have the capital). Otherwise, I'd say law is not for you.

Sucking it up until I can start my own firm or land a super-competitive gov job seems to be the consensus.

But I'm not sure I can stomach 'go to the best law school, forget the scholly' part... many TLSers, myself included, would not go to a T11-20 at sticker in today's economy.

My hunch at this point would be to take the best non-conditional scholly I could at a T30-100 school... but I'd love more input on this issue.

Almost all scholarships will have -some- conditions. Just the better schools have more lenient conditions (like...just be in the top 65% of your class to maintain full scholarship, otherwise you keep half....that's it). If you can get greater than 1/2 tuition at a T30, then I'd say go that route, otherwise my vote is just go T14. You'll still probably land a decent gig from a T14 (especially if you don't go for biglaw) if you can land a little above median; even ITE...... then work for 4 or 5 years, save 2-300k, rent some offices/equipment, and maybe partner with someone who already has a decent book of business (harder then it sounds, but sometimes if you get lucky you can find a partner at a good firm looking to get out of the rat race).

[ggocat]

It is the NORM for the schools to give out WAY MORE conditional schollys that can be kept as a matter of statistics. Think about it. These schools want to BUY as many high LSAT students as they can, but there isn't enough $ to buy as many as they want. Thus, they give out money that is "recyclable". LS administrators know that LS is a different ball game than UG or anything else, and there is no way all the scholly students can keep them, so they give out full rides to 40-60% of the class. Their ranking goes up, a bunch of those students can't make the min. GPA for scholly renewal, and they recycle "your" scholly $ to the next crop of entering students.

Even if a school with a top 1/3 scholly req. only gave out schollys to 1/3 of the students, it's still a bad deal because past performance does not predict success with LS grades. t2/3/4 schools also have low curves. The most generous curve you're going to find at schools like these is a 2.7 or 2.8 median. Curves as low as 2.5 or lower are not unheard of. Getting a 3.3 on a curve like that is a lot harder than you think and your competition in LS is smarter than you think. Also, if too many 1Ls look like they are at risk for keeping scholly $ after 1st semester, NOTHING is stopping schools from lowering the curve 2nd semester to deflate students' GPAs. Some schools also keep up the tough curve for 2L and 3L so your scholly is always at risk.

Yikes. Do people agree with this being the norm? Anyone with anecdotal evidence?

There is some exaggeration, misinformation, and useless information in that post. But I agree with the general assertion that some schools give out more scholarships than can possibly be renewed, and many schools give out scholarships knowing that some scholarships will not be renewed.

[Scallywaggums]

People like you are why people like me enjoy the law and law school but turn into raging alcoholics anyway.

HTH.

Hyuckles.

You mean people like me annoy you 'cause we enjoy nitpicking arguments for the hell of it... often when the actual subject matter is trivial???

You have no idea how much I hate you right now. Seething, bitter, unmitigated contempt. Fire-eyed fury.

Oh dearie. If it makes you feel any better, I don't go around picking fights. I just love getting into genuine debate fueled by genuine disagreement.

As for the nitpicking things, you probably wouldn't be a target. I don't just say "I disagree with that" all the time if I know it won't go anywhere, but if someone offers a reason for something that is logically unsound I have a tendency to point it out.
I don't say "that's unsound", but rather something helpful, like "yes, IF we assume X".

This is horribly off-topic, I just don't want you to hate me ... Have I told you lately that your profile pic is amazing, as is your name?!?! Well they are!!!

Seriously though, what does HTH stand for?

[romothesavior]

Seriously though, what does HTH stand for?

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=What+does+HTH+stand+for%3F

[Scallywaggums]

Almost all scholarships will have -some- conditions. Just the better schools have more lenient conditions (like...just be in the top 65% of your class to maintain full scholarship, otherwise you keep half....that's it). If you can get greater than 1/2 tuition at a T30, then I'd say go that route, otherwise my vote is just go T14. You'll still probably land a decent gig from a T14 (especially if you don't go for biglaw) if you can land a little above median; even ITE...... then work for 4 or 5 years, save 2-300k, rent some offices/equipment, and maybe partner with someone who already has a decent book of business (harder then it sounds, but sometimes if you get lucky you can find a partner at a good firm looking to get out of the rat race).

Greater than 1/2 tuition at T30 is probably impossible with a GPA of 3.55. I assume I'd need to be at LEAST above median for LSAT and GPA to do that. Am i correct that an LSAT above 75th percentile will get me in, but not land a massive scholly with a 3.55 that is below median?

Do other people think that Georgetown or Cornell at sticker is a better bet than the best scholly from a T30-100?
If you disagree, how far down the rankings would your cutoff point be before T11-14 at sticker sounded better?

[ggocat]

Seriously though, what does HTH stand for?

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=What+does+HTH+stand+for%3F

It's after 5:00 p.m. You expect OP to do any work?

[Scallywaggums]

Seriously though, what does HTH stand for?

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=What+does+HTH+stand+for%3F

::wince::

Thanks for the subtle help.

[ggocat]

Am i correct that an LSAT above 75th percentile will get me in, but not land a massive scholly with a 3.55 that is below median?

Probably yes.

[Scallywaggums]

Seriously though, what does HTH stand for?

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=What+does+HTH+stand+for%3F

It's after 5:00 p.m. You expect OP to do any work?

Haha. Once a cleverness threshold is surpassed, being the brunt of a joke isn't so bad.

[lostjake]

Starting up your own law firm takes some serious cash, its not something you can do if you only have 50k in the bank and a wife making 50k a year, unless you want to eat bread sandwiches for a couple of years.

[icydash]

Starting up your own law firm takes some serious cash, its not something you can do if you only have 50k in the bank and a wife making 50k a year, unless you want to eat bread sandwiches for a couple of years.

Yeah but if you took a big law job and put away 40k dedicated to this venture a year for 5 years or so, you'd probably have built enough of a reputation, have enough experience/a few clients that know you, and enough $ to rent some offices and get a secretary. If you can partner with someone else with a decent book of business whose also willing to hire a secretary or an associate, you may be able to get somethin goin.

[Scallywaggums]

Starting up your own law firm takes some serious cash, its not something you can do if you only have 50k in the bank and a wife making 50k a year, unless you want to eat bread sandwiches for a couple of years.

icydash threw out a ballpark of 200-300K. Anyone else's thoughts on this?

Assuming T11-14, median rank and landing a decent firm job, what might my salary be?

[Scallywaggums]

Yeah but if you took a big law job and put away 40k dedicated to this venture a year for 5 years or so, you'd probably have built enough of a reputation, have enough experience/a few clients that know you, and enough $ to rent some offices and get a secretary. If you can partner with someone else with a decent book of business whose also willing to hire a secretary or an associate, you may be able to get somethin goin.

Assuming T11-14 & median rank, I'm assuming BigLaw is out?

I'm aware of the two disparate groups of salaries for lawyers, but I'm hoping you can crack $100K outside of BigLaw... ... ?

[lostjake]

Thinking that you're going to walk out of big law and start your own biz is stupid. Do you think that Walt Disney is going to follow you to your office next to Taco Bell? Most people who start their own biz are in shit law. The reason they're in there is because they don't have big law. If you have a book thats willing to follow you, you either A. stay where you are and make your 200 a year (which people with a book make at least) or move to another biglaw firm taking said book at make 200 there, not start your own shitlaw firm.

HTH.

[Scallywaggums]

Thinking that you're going to walk out of big law and start your own biz is stupid. Do you think that Walt Disney is going to follow you to your office next to Taco Bell? Most people who start their own biz are in shit law. The reason they're in there is because they don't have big law. If you have a book thats willing to follow you, you either A. stay where you are and make your 200 a year (which people with a book make at least) or move to another biglaw firm taking said book at make 200 there, not start your own shitlaw firm.

Oh nooooes!

Up until that zinger, starting my own firm seemed like the ideal end-game... now you're saying it's impossible.

Bear in mind, I'm fine with starting my own firm to work with individual citizens who may not be super wealthy. I'd be happy with going from $200K BigLaw to $40K start-up firm working 50 hour weeks if turning that into $80K in a couple years were feasible. [I realize the first year or so would NOT be 50 hour weeks, until the cash flow was steady]

Anyone with anecdotal evidence on this? We all know that it can be done, I just wonder how high the flop rate is.

[Scallywaggums]

Starting up your own law firm takes some serious cash, its not something you can do if you only have 50k in the bank and a wife making 50k a year, unless you want to eat bread sandwiches for a couple of years.

Depends on the bread. Also, bulk grains, dried beans, eggs & potatoes are the way to go... with multivitamin pills to delude yourself into thinking you're getting all the nutrients of a balanced diet.

[crazycanuck]

Thinking that you're going to walk out of big law and start your own biz is stupid. Do you think that Walt Disney is going to follow you to your office next to Taco Bell? Most people who start their own biz are in shit law. The reason they're in there is because they don't have big law. If you have a book thats willing to follow you, you either A. stay where you are and make your 200 a year (which people with a book make at least) or move to another biglaw firm taking said book at make 200 there, not start your own shitlaw firm.

Oh nooooes!

Up until that zinger, starting my own firm seemed like the ideal end-game... now you're saying it's impossible.

Bear in mind, I'm fine with starting my own firm to work with individual citizens who may not be super wealthy. I'd be happy with going from $200K BigLaw to $40K start-up firm working 50 hour weeks if turning that into $80K in a couple years were feasible. [I realize the first year or so would NOT be 50 hour weeks, until the cash flow was steady]

Anyone with anecdotal evidence on this? We all know that it can be done, I just wonder how high the flop rate is.

Have fun getting those individual citizens who may not be super wealthy to pay their lawyer bills.

[Scallywaggums]

Have fun getting those individual citizens who may not be super wealthy to pay their lawyer bills.

Hrmmm... good point. People in the [disappearing] middle class hire lawyers....... don't they?

Let's say criminal defense: am I completely delusional to dream of one day building this theoretical firm up so that I can just do criminal defense for cases where I actually believe the defendant is innocent?

[romothesavior]

When will this thread die?

[yabbadabbado]

They do when they can afford them, and then they are probably going to go with a 40-50+ year old guy whose been doing whatever type of case it is they need handled for many years. Often they will get referrals from friends or coworkers. When you start your own firm, you won't have the luxury to turn paying clients away because you think they might be guilty. And ask anyone who has worked in small firm crim defense et al how much time they spend trying to collect atty fees.

Have fun getting those individual citizens who may not be super wealthy to pay their lawyer bills.

Hrmmm... good point. People in the [disappearing] middle class hire lawyers....... don't they?

Let's say criminal defense: am I completely delusional to dream of one day building this theoretical firm up so that I can just do criminal defense for cases where I actually believe the defendant is innocent?

[icydash]

Have fun getting those individual citizens who may not be super wealthy to pay their lawyer bills.

Hrmmm... good point. People in the [disappearing] middle class hire lawyers....... don't they?

Let's say criminal defense: am I completely delusional to dream of one day building this theoretical firm up so that I can just do criminal defense for cases where I actually believe the defendant is innocent?

My dad started a torts practice when he was about 30. He came together with two other older (like 50 year old) partners and they formed their firm. At their high point they probably had about 15 people including secretaries and made way, way over 200k a year each. If each attorney is billing 40 hours (so working 65ish) a week at 150-200$/hour, each attorney is bringing in around 300k/year. For a firm that size, they were probably getting paid 90k in salary (of the 300k they earned).... you do the math. The main problem with starting something yourself is you need some money and you need some business. If you have 5 years experience and 200k to put in (each), you should be in a good position to start. Then go out and get clients. Everyone knows someone who needs a lawyer. The hardest part is collecting the money you're owed, but that actually hasn't seemed to be a tremendous problem that my dads encountered (but I'm sure that all depends on what kind of law you practice).

[yabbadabbado]

This depends on so many factors...if things don't substantially improve I'd say there is a high risk you might not get biglaw.

$100K outside of biglaw is rare. Unless you have a hard science or engineering degree or can luck out and get a job at a large regional firm (very hard to land), I'd say the chances of making $100K to start outside biglaw are pretty much nil.

Assuming T11-14 & median rank, I'm assuming BigLaw is out?

I'm aware of the two disparate groups of salaries for lawyers, but I'm hoping you can crack $100K outside of BigLaw... ... ?

[yabbadabbado]

Let me guess, you haven't even taken the LSAT yet, have you? Why are you bothering with all these hypothetical questions? If you want to know which schools give schollys with little or no strings attached, start making phone calls to the schools. I'll give you a hint, almost no t2/3/4 schools will give scholarships without substantial conditions attached to them. As far as getting a full ride goes, try LSN. I do not think your GPA would necessarily pose a problem, but I don't track admissions stats. My guess is that it would hinge on your LSAT score. Why don't you worry about the LSAT for now, figure out where to apply after that, then evaluate your offers as they come in?

Almost all scholarships will have -some- conditions. Just the better schools have more lenient conditions (like...just be in the top 65% of your class to maintain full scholarship, otherwise you keep half....that's it). If you can get greater than 1/2 tuition at a T30, then I'd say go that route, otherwise my vote is just go T14. You'll still probably land a decent gig from a T14 (especially if you don't go for biglaw) if you can land a little above median; even ITE...... then work for 4 or 5 years, save 2-300k, rent some offices/equipment, and maybe partner with someone who already has a decent book of business (harder then it sounds, but sometimes if you get lucky you can find a partner at a good firm looking to get out of the rat race).

Greater than 1/2 tuition at T30 is probably impossible with a GPA of 3.55. I assume I'd need to be at LEAST above median for LSAT and GPA to do that. Am i correct that an LSAT above 75th percentile will get me in, but not land a massive scholly with a 3.55 that is below median?

Do other people think that Georgetown or Cornell at sticker is a better bet than the best scholly from a T30-100?
If you disagree, how far down the rankings would your cutoff point be before T11-14 at sticker sounded better?