Class of 2013 will be part of the "Lost Generation"

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MD/JD2B
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Re: Class of 2013 will be part of the "Lost Generation"

Postby MD/JD2B » Fri Jun 11, 2010 2:08 pm

I'm so glad I can fall back on my MD after reading all the optimistic comments here. Of course, donning a saffron robe and carrying a begging bowl would be the ultimate....

rando
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Re: Class of 2013 will be part of the "Lost Generation"

Postby rando » Fri Jun 11, 2010 2:56 pm

motiontodismiss wrote:
jt134 wrote:
And how is it that i have a test prep tutor who is a 3L at UT who is graduating below 30% (class rank) and has a job lined up at Jones Day to start out making 160,000 a year. Oh and he only has COL debt... roughly 30,000 i would say.


And in 10 years he'll still be making $170k. Black box compensation=less compensation. Period. End of story.


This statement is dead wrong.

motiontodismiss
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Re: Class of 2013 will be part of the "Lost Generation"

Postby motiontodismiss » Fri Jun 11, 2010 6:36 pm

rando wrote:
motiontodismiss wrote:
jt134 wrote:
And how is it that i have a test prep tutor who is a 3L at UT who is graduating below 30% (class rank) and has a job lined up at Jones Day to start out making 160,000 a year. Oh and he only has COL debt... roughly 30,000 i would say.


And in 10 years he'll still be making $170k. Black box compensation=less compensation. Period. End of story.


This statement is dead wrong.


Why else would it be confidential? They keep saying it fosters a team atmosphere or whatever, but I don't buy it. If Jones Day really does pay market or higher, prove it. They should have no problem showing their above market numbers.

d34d9823
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Re: Class of 2013 will be part of the "Lost Generation"

Postby d34d9823 » Fri Jun 11, 2010 7:21 pm

motiontodismiss wrote:
rando wrote:
motiontodismiss wrote:And in 10 years he'll still be making $170k. Black box compensation=less compensation. Period. End of story.


This statement is dead wrong.


Why else would it be confidential? They keep saying it fosters a team atmosphere or whatever, but I don't buy it. If Jones Day really does pay market or higher, prove it. They should have no problem showing their above market numbers.


Common sense says that their talent would jump ship if their compensation wasn't comparable.

motiontodismiss
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Re: Class of 2013 will be part of the "Lost Generation"

Postby motiontodismiss » Fri Jun 11, 2010 9:46 pm

d34dluk3 wrote:
motiontodismiss wrote:
rando wrote:
motiontodismiss wrote:And in 10 years he'll still be making $170k. Black box compensation=less compensation. Period. End of story.


This statement is dead wrong.


Why else would it be confidential? They keep saying it fosters a team atmosphere or whatever, but I don't buy it. If Jones Day really does pay market or higher, prove it. They should have no problem showing their above market numbers.


Common sense says that their talent would jump ship if their compensation wasn't comparable.


ITE, to whom? Unemployment?

Did you account for the koolaid effect?

I don't know of a single firm that killed lockstep (McDermott, Winston, etc) that increased total comp in aggregate.

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vanwinkle
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Re: Class of 2013 will be part of the "Lost Generation"

Postby vanwinkle » Fri Jun 11, 2010 10:08 pm

motiontodismiss wrote:
d34dluk3 wrote:Common sense says that their talent would jump ship if their compensation wasn't comparable.

ITE, to whom? Unemployment?

To other firms. Firms used the economy as an excuse to execute mass layoffs, but they were still hiring highly qualified people. The bubble bursting didn't mean all layoffs were suspended, it just meant they were moving far away from the "hire them first and then screen them for ability" model they had been recklessly using for years.

HOV
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Re: Class of 2013 will be part of the "Lost Generation"

Postby HOV » Fri Jun 11, 2010 10:13 pm

TTTGrad wrote: A colleague's kid just graduated from CLS without a paying job. I suppose for employment purposes that person is employed even though it is a volunteer position.


surely this has something to do with the kids performance at CLS.

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General Tso
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Re: Class of 2013 will be part of the "Lost Generation"

Postby General Tso » Sat Jun 12, 2010 1:57 am

motiontodismiss wrote:
rando wrote:
motiontodismiss wrote:
jt134 wrote:
And how is it that i have a test prep tutor who is a 3L at UT who is graduating below 30% (class rank) and has a job lined up at Jones Day to start out making 160,000 a year. Oh and he only has COL debt... roughly 30,000 i would say.


And in 10 years he'll still be making $170k. Black box compensation=less compensation. Period. End of story.


This statement is dead wrong.


Why else would it be confidential? They keep saying it fosters a team atmosphere or whatever, but I don't buy it. If Jones Day really does pay market or higher, prove it. They should have no problem showing their above market numbers.


Infirmation used to have solid payscales. Not sure if they've been updated in the last 2-3 years.

Also digging through old ATL posts might help.

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jeremydc
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Re: Class of 2013 will be part of the "Lost Generation"

Postby jeremydc » Sat Jun 12, 2010 2:13 am

So I guess C/O 2015 aint looking so hot huh :P

rando
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Re: Class of 2013 will be part of the "Lost Generation"

Postby rando » Sat Jun 12, 2010 6:10 pm

motiontodismiss wrote:
d34dluk3 wrote:
motiontodismiss wrote:
motiontodismiss wrote:And in 10 years he'll still be making $170k. Black box compensation=less compensation. Period. End of story.


Why else would it be confidential? They keep saying it fosters a team atmosphere or whatever, but I don't buy it. If Jones Day really does pay market or higher, prove it. They should have no problem showing their above market numbers.


Common sense says that their talent would jump ship if their compensation wasn't comparable.


ITE, to whom? Unemployment?

Did you account for the koolaid effect?

I don't know of a single firm that killed lockstep (McDermott, Winston, etc) that increased total comp in aggregate.


It is abundantly clear that you don't have the slightest idea what you are talking about.

Why would it be confidential? As opposed to having every associate in the building bitching about how their billables don't match their compensation or about how joe schmoe next door got paid more, they actually focus on performance. You seriously don't see the point in merit based compensation? And who do they need to prove it to? To you? certainly not.

Further, if you haven't noticed JD is one of the bigger/more prestigious firms in the world. If they aren't competing in the compensation marketplace, they will lose talent. It's pretty simple.

And your research about merit-based compensation failed miserably. JD didn't switch to merit based like other firms fighting the recession. They have always done merit comp.

That must be the kool-aid effect? Stop spouting ATL commentary as if you have first-hand knowledge.

Sick of 0L's that know everything.

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vanwinkle
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Re: Class of 2013 will be part of the "Lost Generation"

Postby vanwinkle » Sat Jun 12, 2010 7:11 pm

jeremydc wrote:So I guess C/O 2015 aint looking so hot huh :P

This was anonymous. Now it is not. As a reminder, do not use the anonymous feature when it is not necessary to do so. While some leeway will be given, things that clearly hide nothing but the OP's identity will be outed.

motiontodismiss
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Re: Class of 2013 will be part of the "Lost Generation"

Postby motiontodismiss » Sun Jun 13, 2010 1:12 pm

rando wrote:
It is abundantly clear that you don't have the slightest idea what you are talking about.

Why would it be confidential? As opposed to having every associate in the building bitching about how their billables don't match their compensation or about how joe schmoe next door got paid more, they actually focus on performance. You seriously don't see the point in merit based compensation? And who do they need to prove it to? To you? certainly not.

Further, if you haven't noticed JD is one of the bigger/more prestigious firms in the world. If they aren't competing in the compensation marketplace, they will lose talent. It's pretty simple.

And your research about merit-based compensation failed miserably. JD didn't switch to merit based like other firms fighting the recession. They have always done merit comp.

That must be the kool-aid effect? Stop spouting ATL commentary as if you have first-hand knowledge.

Sick of 0L's that know everything.


Law firms are incompetent at assessing talent and even worse at managing it. Any leeway given to arbitrary criteria will mean anyone not white and male will be disfavored. Suckups will be evaluated more leniently and/or more favorably, leading to higher comp. It's that simple.

I don't care what they say their motives are, if they do in fact pay better in aggregate, prove it. They should have no problems showing their average numbers if they do in fact pay market or better. Otherwise, I'll assume they do it to get away with paying below market. "Jones Day Way"... give me a break.

If merit based comp is so great, tell me, how many V5's are on merit based comp? Oh, that's right, none. Skadden, Sullivan, Wachtell, Cravath, and Davis (whomever the last V5 is) are all on some variant of lockstep, at least through the 8th year. I'm not going to claim a causal relationship, but I do think there's a relationship between JD's comp scheme and it's place in the biglaw world. I don't see top talent leaving Skadden in droves for the 5% chance of getting paid above market at a firm like JD.

rando
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Re: Class of 2013 will be part of the "Lost Generation"

Postby rando » Sun Jun 13, 2010 2:42 pm

You just sound silly. Firms may not be able to assess talent directly out of law school but they sure as hell can assess their associates. Your point that suckups get paid more. Maybe. But at the end of the day the partners making pay decisions pay the associates who make them money.

Your comparison to V5 firms is laughable. They are all lockstep so that makes them the best firms? Or lockstep causally leads to higher aggregate pay? Anyone with a meager understanding of stats or logic knows you cant even begin to make that assumption. Especially when JD is what V25? and the only firm to do black box comp? What about the 75 firms below jd that are all lockstep?

You seem really stuck on the whole "show me" and ill believe it. But as much as the whole legal field is about dick swinging contests, jd has said they dont want to be a part of it, for better or worse. I see where youre coming from, i do. But you are making unfounded assumptions. Those wont serve you well in LS.

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chicagolaw2013
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Re: Class of 2013 will be part of the "Lost Generation"

Postby chicagolaw2013 » Sun Jun 13, 2010 3:12 pm

Still wondering when TTTGrad is gonna get permabanned, mods. He creates the same post over and over.

Go grovel back to your woman who doesn't want you anymore, dude...maybe she'll give a shit about what you blabber on about all the damn time. WAHHHHH WAHHHHHH WAHHHHHH.

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theavrock
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Re: Class of 2013 will be part of the "Lost Generation"

Postby theavrock » Sun Jun 13, 2010 3:23 pm

TTT Grad = --ImageRemoved-- ?

The vocabulary is basically the same

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chicagolaw2013
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Re: Class of 2013 will be part of the "Lost Generation"

Postby chicagolaw2013 » Sun Jun 13, 2010 3:25 pm

theavrock wrote:TTT Grad = --ImageRemoved-- ?

The vocabulary is basically the same


I ROFLed. Thank you for that pic.

TTTGrad
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Re: Class of 2013 will be part of the "Lost Generation"

Postby TTTGrad » Sun Jun 13, 2010 4:51 pm

Chicagolaw2013, I recently read a story involving the TTT you are about to attend. If you are attending DePaul on a "scholly," please read the linked story that involves the dean enforcing the curve by changing the grades a professor gave so that some kids lose their "scholly." I hope for your sake you don't wind up a victim of this TTT's bait (scholarship) and switch (paying sticker for 2L and 3L) trick.

http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog ... prof-.html

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chicagolaw2013
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Re: Class of 2013 will be part of the "Lost Generation"

Postby chicagolaw2013 » Sun Jun 13, 2010 5:04 pm

TTTGrad wrote:Chicagolaw2013, I recently read a story involving the TTT you are about to attend. If you are attending DePaul on a "scholly," please read the linked story that involves the dean enforcing the curve by changing the grades a professor gave so that some kids lose their "scholly." I hope for your sake you don't wind up a victim of this TTT's bait (scholarship) and switch (paying sticker for 2L and 3L) trick.

http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog ... prof-.html


Thanks for looking out for me, TTTGrad. Maybe if you weren't such a condescending douchebag ALL THE FUCKING TIME, I would actually heed your advice.

Stop posting shit I've already seen, loser, and try to get back that "love of your life" that left you for being...what was the term someone used at one point? oh yeah...an insufferable douchetruck. Maybe she give a shit.

EDIT: Oh, and P.S. TTTGrad, almost forgot to mention...if you actually READ that article (serious RC fail on your part), a professor was not staying true to the MANDATORY grading curve, and giving everyone higher grades. I'll admit, that sounds like a pretty cool guy, but he went against the rules and regs the school set forth. Also, this wasn't a "bait and switch" maneuver...these were upper level students.

So, less giving advice, more working on RC for you.
Last edited by chicagolaw2013 on Sun Jun 13, 2010 5:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Scallywaggums
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Re: Class of 2013 will be part of the "Lost Generation"

Postby Scallywaggums » Sun Jun 13, 2010 5:09 pm

While this is an informational link, it's nothing to get up in arms about. The dean simply forced the prof to adhere to the school's curve. Major bummer for some students, yes, but no different from what's going on in all the classes in all the schools where the teachers simply play by their school's rules.

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Bildungsroman
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Re: Class of 2013 will be part of the "Lost Generation"

Postby Bildungsroman » Sun Jun 13, 2010 5:11 pm

TTTGrad wrote:Chicagolaw2013, I recently read a story involving the TTT you are about to attend. If you are attending DePaul on a "scholly," please read the linked story that involves the dean enforcing the curve by changing the grades a professor gave so that some kids lose their "scholly." I hope for your sake you don't wind up a victim of this TTT's bait (scholarship) and switch (paying sticker for 2L and 3L) trick.

http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog ... prof-.html


I haven't seen any evidence that the dean did this to ensure that some students would lose their scholarships. DePaul has a strict curve, and the dean used this professor's raw numbers to fit the students' grades to this curve. So, the dean wasn't selectively lowering student grades to cost them their scholarships, but was ensuring that the students weren't having their grades inflated. This may result in some students losing their scholarships, but actions can have unfortunate consequences without being nefarious.

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Scallywaggums
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Re: Class of 2013 will be part of the "Lost Generation"

Postby Scallywaggums » Sun Jun 13, 2010 5:17 pm

^ +1

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Topher
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Re: Class of 2013 will be part of the "Lost Generation"

Postby Topher » Sun Jun 13, 2010 5:17 pm

Can someone ban him already?

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Stanford4Me
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Re: Class of 2013 will be part of the "Lost Generation"

Postby Stanford4Me » Sun Jun 13, 2010 5:20 pm

HOV wrote:
TTTGrad wrote: A colleague's kid just graduated from CLS without a paying job. I suppose for employment purposes that person is employed even though it is a volunteer position.


surely this has something to do with the kids performance at CLS.


(This is in response to TTT)

And I could just as easily talk about the girl I know who just graduated from CLS and will be making $160000. My dad introduced me to her last week.

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chicagolaw2013
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Re: Class of 2013 will be part of the "Lost Generation"

Postby chicagolaw2013 » Sun Jun 13, 2010 5:21 pm

Topher wrote:Can someone ban him already?


Right there with you, man. Already asked multiple times. I'm about to scream over here. Troll to the nth degree.

Anyone know where this schmuck went for his JD? I'd be curious to know. Has to be T3 or T4, if he's willing to call himself TTTGrad, but unwilling to say exactly where he went for fear of mockery.

TTTGrad
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Re: Class of 2013 will be part of the "Lost Generation"

Postby TTTGrad » Sun Jun 13, 2010 5:39 pm

Chicagolaw2013,

=Sigh=

Perhaps if you had done a little more research on the story, you would have learned that this professor has in the past deviated from the grading curve. Why did the Dean at DePaul decide this semester to enforce the curve and not in the past? Surely many college grads are dying to go to law school, even at a festering TTT such as DePaul which was prominently featured in this article:

http://T14 Paradise.blogspot.com/20 ... ge-of.html

Some of the students at DePaul suspect the curve was enforced in order to prevent "scholly" kids from keeping their awards because the school may be hard up for money. After all, law professors and deans need to live a lavish lifestyle.

As for me, don't you concern your little brain about what TTT I attended (anything outside YHS is TTT). Rest assured my TTT alma mater is ranked way higher (T25) than DePaul for what it's worth.




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