Character and Fitness - stupid mistake on the job

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nylaw23
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Re: Character and Fitness - stupid mistake on the job

Postby nylaw23 » Wed May 26, 2010 12:43 pm

Make sure you inform someone of the problem before they find it out on their own.

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Bert
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Re: Character and Fitness - stupid mistake on the job

Postby Bert » Wed May 26, 2010 1:00 pm

OP, if you don't mind sharing, what do you for a living? Are you a Brinks security guard (in which case you may have just dropped a $1,000 deposit somewhere on your route), or a bank teller (and showed up $1,000 in the cash drawer short one day), or something else?

Going back to a prior point in the discussion, as for the regular retail cashier, I have held many such positions and have never had a "contract" per se. There was a company rule that if your till was short/over up by more than a certain amount for a certain number of days in a certain time frame, you were out the door. Whenever I put up the cash, it was because I had surpassed that quota and desparately needed to remain employed, and I only put up the money needed to get me back under the f'up limit. My boss never requested the money. F'ing up retail is so easy, as many have indicated.
Last edited by Bert on Wed May 26, 2010 1:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

NightHooded
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Re: Character and Fitness - stupid mistake on the job

Postby NightHooded » Wed May 26, 2010 1:02 pm

I would like to add to the thread by asking: how seriously is C&F usually taken?

If you didn't tell your LS about a certain job, or fudged things slightly, etc... is that a killer for you?

For example, in my PS, I talked about certain people in my life but changed their names, without saying "names changed." After reading all this C&F stuff, I am getting paranoid. And yet there are so many sleazy lawyers out there, I find it hard to believe anyone even mildly ethical has much to worry about.

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Bert
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Re: Character and Fitness - stupid mistake on the job

Postby Bert » Wed May 26, 2010 1:08 pm

What do you mean by "fudged things slightly"? Like, saying you left a job in October 2008, when you really left in August 2008? As for the changed names thing, I would think that this is not a cause for concern.

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Mattalones
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Re: Character and Fitness - stupid mistake on the job

Postby Mattalones » Wed May 26, 2010 1:19 pm

I looked back to my personal statement and realized that some of the stuff was slightly off because of the impression about certain facts I had during the time I wrote it. However, most of it is unverifiable and, even when it is, it isn't a major "he lied" sort of thing. It's within a reasonable "oops" margin. Don't trip on things like not changing names.

For me, I was let go from a job without cause, so the record does not say I did anything wrong (in reality I was a bummer at work cuz I openly hated it there, and that is why the let me go). Did I tell the law school that didn't ask about firing? NOPE!!! In fact, I didn't apply to law school that asked about it. I just listed the job on my with accurate dates, and that was that. I just plan to disclose it during the C&F.

The only argument I could see against doing something like this would be. "So you let law schools admit you under misleading pretenses ... bad character!" However, that would be a large leap of a conclusion based on the fact that I put it in my resume, but simply failed to write an essay about some stupid job I had.

NightHooded
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Re: Character and Fitness - stupid mistake on the job

Postby NightHooded » Wed May 26, 2010 1:32 pm

Bert wrote:What do you mean by "fudged things slightly"? Like, saying you left a job in October 2008, when you really left in August 2008? As for the changed names thing, I would think that this is not a cause for concern.


Well, just what you said - would that doom someone from practicing law? I just find it hard to believe because there are so many crooks in the field already.

But in my own example, I was selective in my LS apps. I might have mentioned one summer job to one school, another job to another; I worked for my uncle for a bit, and put that down - but I doubt it holds water as a true-blue "job." :oops:

Then again, I don't recall any app saying "you must put down every job ever, inclusive"

Anonymous User
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Re: Character and Fitness - stupid mistake on the job

Postby Anonymous User » Wed May 26, 2010 1:33 pm

A bank pressing charges against an employee for allegedly embezzling $1,000 is not worth the negative PR. Not that it's considerably newsworthy, but the brass wouldn't want to let the public know that it's employees steal their deposits, insured or not.

On the other hand, firing an employee, for what I am assuming is a first offense, while having no proof (and they will watch the videos) is possible, but highly unlikely. What does that say to the rest of the staff?

I've been in banking for a few years and yes all banks have their own policy on balancing outages. However, honesty is the best policy and it will set you free. Unless you are not telling the whole story, the bank has every reason to believe you.

If you contacted a lawyer at this point in the drama, he or she would hang up the phone. Some people on this site are flat out we tall did.

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Bert
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Re: Character and Fitness - stupid mistake on the job

Postby Bert » Wed May 26, 2010 1:42 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I've been in banking for a few years and yes all banks have their own policy on balancing outages. However, honesty is the best policy and it will set you free. Unless you are not telling the whole story, the bank has every reason to believe you.


In banking, did you ever hear of any employee voluntarily ponying up a significant amount of money to cover a mistake of theirs?

ScaredWorkedBored
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Re: Character and Fitness - stupid mistake on the job

Postby ScaredWorkedBored » Wed May 26, 2010 1:44 pm

NightHooded wrote:I would like to add to the thread by asking: how seriously is C&F usually taken?


Varies depending on the state, but generally quite seriously. Everyone gets investigated but most people pass either because they really haven't done anything worth mentioning, or they were up-front about the serious issues.

In most states, there is no automatic deny other than lying to the bar.

If you didn't tell your LS about a certain job, or fudged things slightly, etc... is that a killer for you?


If you left it off your resume, probably no issue. Maybe not the best if it was something significant where you were fired for cause

If you were asked for employment history and specifically omitted job(s), problem.

Let's be honest - you know if the discrepency was material or not because you know why you "fudged."
Last edited by ScaredWorkedBored on Wed May 26, 2010 1:49 pm, edited 2 times in total.

eldizknee
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Re: Character and Fitness - stupid mistake on the job

Postby eldizknee » Wed May 26, 2010 1:48 pm

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Last edited by eldizknee on Fri Jan 28, 2011 10:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

xyzzzzzzzz
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Re: Character and Fitness - stupid mistake on the job

Postby xyzzzzzzzz » Wed May 26, 2010 1:48 pm

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Last edited by xyzzzzzzzz on Thu Jul 08, 2010 10:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Character and Fitness - stupid mistake on the job

Postby Anonymous User » Wed May 26, 2010 1:52 pm

There is only an actual problem if they file some type of charges against you. I handle thousands weekly, and credit card numbers. On occasion, I turn in dollar bills that are fake or process credit card numbers that are stolen, and I'm not punished for my actions on the job. In total, the amount of charge-backs and fake dollar bills is more than $1k, but I'm not penalized by the company.

Will I tell someone that I process fake currency or stolen credit cards on occasion? No, I will not. It happens on the job and it stays on the job.

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Bert
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Re: Character and Fitness - stupid mistake on the job

Postby Bert » Wed May 26, 2010 1:55 pm

xyzzzzzzzz wrote:So basically if asked for employment history, you should list every job you ever had, even if it was under 3 months? and um, is this ever asked?


You should, yes, because that is what they asked for. Let them determine it is irrelevant on their own. I don't know where the 3 month rule came from, but I never heard about it. Maybe that is customary on a resume, I don't know. As for "is this ever asked," I have seen it asked before -- one was UCIrvine's application for the innaugural class.

Anonymous User
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Re: Character and Fitness - stupid mistake on the job

Postby Anonymous User » Wed May 26, 2010 2:11 pm

Bert wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I've been in banking for a few years and yes all banks have their own policy on balancing outages. However, honesty is the best policy and it will set you free. Unless you are not telling the whole story, the bank has every reason to believe you.


In banking, did you ever hear of any employee voluntarily ponying up a significant amount of money to cover a mistake of theirs?


No. Granted, anytime I saw an amount around that size go missing, it didn't take long to find it. Check your tape, even if you already have a hundred times. It's so easy to strike the wrong key as a teller.

Like some others have said, by offering to pay it back you are essentially pleading guilty. Yes, you are responsible, but as a subordinate, the decision to rectify the situation is not yours. That's why managers make more money. Decision-makers have to live with their decisions.

My gut tells me they will find the money, or actually the more probable typo, and balance your station. If they don't, they report it to a VP or Controller to show it as a loss. Until that time, you really should just do what you can to help. Once it gets classified as a loss, your manager, or more likely manager's manager, has to address the loss. Theft is taken incredibly serious at banks, for obvious reasons, and this matter might make it to the executive office or possibly board room depending on the size of your employer. They would fire you before they asked for your money, considering they would then have to explain the recovered funds to the controller again, and unless you are willing to admit to a crime you didn't do, I don't know what they could say other than to lie that it was found. So, I don't see you paying it back as a possibility at all. Therefore, don't dare offer to pay it back.

Be prepared for anything when it comes to your employment there though, including termination. Like I said before, I really doubt they would do that to a first offense (right?) and without proof. But, if your manager's manager is a total dick, you might want to start looking for another job. Always ask to review your personnel file with HR before you leave.

None of this should in any way be considered legal advice of course.

xyzzzzzzzz
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Re: Character and Fitness - stupid mistake on the job

Postby xyzzzzzzzz » Wed May 26, 2010 2:22 pm

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Last edited by xyzzzzzzzz on Thu Jul 08, 2010 10:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

blue5385
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Re: Character and Fitness - stupid mistake on the job

Postby blue5385 » Wed May 26, 2010 2:30 pm

xyzzzzzzzz wrote:
Bert wrote:
xyzzzzzzzz wrote:So basically if asked for employment history, you should list every job you ever had, even if it was under 3 months? and um, is this ever asked?


You should, yes, because that is what they asked for. Let them determine it is irrelevant on their own. I don't know where the 3 month rule came from, but I never heard about it. Maybe that is customary on a resume, I don't know. As for "is this ever asked," I have seen it asked before -- one was UCIrvine's application for the innaugural class.



Oh i meant like seasonal employment, summer type work. thanks tho.


I don't know about this. I was worried about a job I left off my LS apps and resume (< 2 months; was not terminated & never got in trouble on the job; irrelevant to law school). I called the NY Bar C&F committee and spoke to the person I was told would evaluate my C&F form. He said as long as I listed all the required info on the Bar app and submitted legal employment affidavits where necessary, there would be no reason for him to flag my Bar app for leaving a job off my LS apps. My law school only asked me to "list up to four jobs" and did not use the words "employment history" or otherwise indicate I needed to disclose every single job I've ever worked (fwiw, the person from the C&F committee never once asked me about the wording of the applicable employment-related question on my LS app).

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Bert
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Re: Character and Fitness - stupid mistake on the job

Postby Bert » Wed May 26, 2010 3:01 pm

blue5385 wrote:
xyzzzzzzzz wrote:
Bert wrote:
xyzzzzzzzz wrote:So basically if asked for employment history, you should list every job you ever had, even if it was under 3 months? and um, is this ever asked?


You should, yes, because that is what they asked for. Let them determine it is irrelevant on their own. I don't know where the 3 month rule came from, but I never heard about it. Maybe that is customary on a resume, I don't know. As for "is this ever asked," I have seen it asked before -- one was UCIrvine's application for the innaugural class.



Oh i meant like seasonal employment, summer type work. thanks tho.


I don't know about this. I was worried about a job I left off my LS apps and resume (< 2 months; was not terminated & never got in trouble on the job; irrelevant to law school). I called the NY Bar C&F committee and spoke to the person I was told would evaluate my C&F form. He said as long as I listed all the required info on the Bar app and submitted legal employment affidavits where necessary, there would be no reason for him to flag my Bar app for leaving a job off my LS apps. My law school only asked me to "list up to four jobs" and did not use the words "employment history" or otherwise indicate I needed to disclose every single job I've ever worked (fwiw, the person from the C&F committee never once asked me about the wording of the applicable employment-related question on my LS app).


You indicated that you left a job off your LS apps when LS only asked for "up to four jobs", so they clearly weren't asking for an employment history. I have seen instances where schools ask for a complete employment history or an employment history since graduating UG. If the school goes so far as to word their request in such a way as to intimate that they are looking for a comprehensive list, I believe that you should provide them what they are specifically requesting.

NightHooded
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Re: Character and Fitness - stupid mistake on the job

Postby NightHooded » Wed May 26, 2010 3:12 pm

Bert wrote:You indicated that you left a job off your LS apps when LS only asked for "up to four jobs", so they clearly weren't asking for an employment history. I have seen instances where schools ask for a complete employment history or an employment history since graduating UG. If the school goes so far as to word their request in such a way as to intimate that they are looking for a comprehensive list, I believe that you should provide them what they are specifically requesting.


On my LS app, it says full or part time work since college, and I put in 3 of 4 possible spaces. I did have some crap part-time things in there, but I didn't include them. Anything I'd consider "substantial" was mentioned. Please tell me leaving off an insignificant job or two on my LS app won't haunt me :| :?

blue5385
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Re: Character and Fitness - stupid mistake on the job

Postby blue5385 » Wed May 26, 2010 3:22 pm

Bert wrote:You indicated that you left a job off your LS apps when LS only asked for "up to four jobs", so they clearly weren't asking for an employment history. I have seen instances where schools ask for a complete employment history or an employment history since graduating UG. If the school goes so far as to word their request in such a way as to intimate that they are looking for a comprehensive list, I believe that you should provide them what they are specifically requesting.


That's true, and I'm not trying to advocate for being dishonest on apps and purposely leaving out things that will affect the way adcomms evaluate one's app. The point I was trying to make is that IMO, after talking to the NY Bar C&F person, it's not a deal-breaker with the Bar if someone did not list an irrelevant, short-term job that they didn't leave under negative or shady circumstances on their law school app. The C&F person seemed nonchalant about it even though NY is a state known for being tough on C&F, so I don't think something this minor would prevent someone from practicing law on its own. However, I do think forgetting to list something relevant on the Bar app could be a deal-breaker depending on what someone left off (even something minor like this). These things also vary from state to state, so if someone is concerned it's probably a good idea to call the state Bar where you plan to practice and ask if/how leaving a job off the LS app will affect your Bar app.

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Bert
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Re: Character and Fitness - stupid mistake on the job

Postby Bert » Wed May 26, 2010 3:30 pm

NightHooded wrote:
Bert wrote:You indicated that you left a job off your LS apps when LS only asked for "up to four jobs", so they clearly weren't asking for an employment history. I have seen instances where schools ask for a complete employment history or an employment history since graduating UG. If the school goes so far as to word their request in such a way as to intimate that they are looking for a comprehensive list, I believe that you should provide them what they are specifically requesting.


On my LS app, it says full or part time work since college, and I put in 3 of 4 possible spaces. I did have some crap part-time things in there, but I didn't include them. Anything I'd consider "substantial" was mentioned. Please tell me leaving off an insignificant job or two on my LS app won't haunt me :| :?


I'm not trying to scare you at all (and I apologize if I did), but I was trying to highlight the distinction in the two scenarios. I think you are in the clear in the instance you set forth, but I think that people who are asked to provide an employment history should provide that which is requested and not try to determine what is relevant for the school (NOTE, I interpret employment history as being a cumulative list of your employment). It is the school's problem to decipher the "everything" once it is provided to them.

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Re: Character and Fitness - stupid mistake on the job

Postby Anonymous User » Wed May 26, 2010 3:34 pm

I have worked in similar cash handling operations where I was responsible for throughput of 100k+ a day. These things happen; it's really easy to drop a strap in another bag. Most of the time these things are easy to track down and no harm no foul. Worst case scenario is you'll get canned, but that does not mean that you will be suspected of stealing it. Most places that work with this amount of cash know how easy it is and I it is my experience that they wouldn't report you as a thief. They fire people who make large cash mistakes because they have to explain the shortage to someone higher at corporate, etc. If you have C&F issues in the future, get a lawyer then.

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Bert
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Re: Character and Fitness - stupid mistake on the job

Postby Bert » Wed May 26, 2010 3:58 pm

blue5385 wrote:That's true, and I'm not trying to advocate for being dishonest on apps and purposely leaving out things that will affect the way adcomms evaluate one's app. The point I was trying to make is that IMO, after talking to the NY Bar C&F person, it's not a deal-breaker with the Bar if someone did not list an irrelevant, short-term job that they didn't leave under negative or shady circumstances on their law school app. The C&F person seemed nonchalant about it even though NY is a state known for being tough on C&F, so I don't think something this minor would prevent someone from practicing law on its own. However, I do think forgetting to list something relevant on the Bar app could be a deal-breaker depending on what someone left off (even something minor like this). These things also vary from state to state, so if someone is concerned it's probably a good idea to call the state Bar where you plan to practice and ask if/how leaving a job off the LS app will affect your Bar app.


See my reply post to NightHooded. I think we are in agreement. Such an ommission on a LS app is not as serious as an ommission on the bar app. I still hold though that a school's request for an employment history should be responded to with an employment history (no matter how onerous). In the absence of specific language from the LS requesting comprehensiveness, such requests leave room for interpretation and partial answers can be acceptable, provided that they is no intent to deceive.

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Re: Character and Fitness - stupid mistake on the job

Postby Anonymous User » Wed May 26, 2010 6:08 pm

Bert wrote:
blue5385 wrote:See my reply post to NightHooded. I think we are in agreement. Such an ommission on a LS app is not as serious as an ommission on the bar app. I still hold though that a school's request for an employment history should be responded to with an employment history (no matter how onerous). In the absence of specific language from the LS requesting comprehensiveness, such requests leave room for interpretation and partial answers can be acceptable, provided that they is no intent to deceive.


No one has mentioned this - but can't you ask your school to amend your application?

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Matthies
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Re: Character and Fitness - stupid mistake on the job

Postby Matthies » Wed May 26, 2010 6:20 pm

NightHooded wrote:I would like to add to the thread by asking: how seriously is C&F usually taken?

If you didn't tell your LS about a certain job, or fudged things slightly, etc... is that a killer for you?

For example, in my PS, I talked about certain people in my life but changed their names, without saying "names changed." After reading all this C&F stuff, I am getting paranoid. And yet there are so many sleazy lawyers out there, I find it hard to believe anyone even mildly ethical has much to worry about.


Its very hard to be sleazy and get IN the profession, but its quite easy to becomes sleazy and stay IN the profesion onced your licernsed.

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Rock Chalk
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Re: Character and Fitness - stupid mistake on the job

Postby Rock Chalk » Wed May 26, 2010 6:38 pm

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