Character and Fitness - stupid mistake on the job

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hubtubrub
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Re: Character and Fitness - stupid mistake on the job

Postby hubtubrub » Tue May 25, 2010 7:24 am

quickquestionthanks wrote:If you are terminated, you should ask that you be allowed to take a polygraph and have the results placed in your personnel file in case it is ever pulled.


as if polygraphs are accurate.

Action Jackson
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Re: Character and Fitness - stupid mistake on the job

Postby Action Jackson » Tue May 25, 2010 10:17 am

A'nold wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:Offering to pay it back is the dumbest fucking advice I've ever heard. Short of confessing, I can't think of anything that would make you appear more guilty.


Thank you.

ActionJackson- apparently me thinking this wasn't so off the wall, eh?

"I'm sorry. I know I made a mistake, and if you want to take the difference out of my paycheck I understand." Yeah, that screams guilty to me. :roll:

What we see in this thread is a bunch of people saying, "I work with money, sweep it under the rug and it'll go away," and me telling him to go talk to a lawyer. Again, IF his employers (who we don't know) don't care about this then maybe he is fine just ignoring it. But maybe his manager is a dick. Maybe this isn't the first time money has gone missing recently and they're suspicious. We don't know.

We also don't know how his bar looks at having one of your employers report money disappeared while you were on the job. This sounds like something every bar would red flag, but we don't know what every state will do.

A worry is that this does blow over, no big deal, but when the bar check with these guys about what happened, 3 years from now when they're not telling fart jokes with OP around the water cooler, their story might not sound so innocent to a bar. Am I really the only one that realizes that might be a problem? So OP can either ignore this entirely, or he can be smart and ask an expert in these kinds of issues what he needs to do and whether or not he should really be concerned. The amount of time and money to get professional advice on an issue like this is well worth it if it means you don't have to worry 3 years from now about being denied admission to the bar.

d34d9823
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Re: Character and Fitness - stupid mistake on the job

Postby d34d9823 » Tue May 25, 2010 10:25 am

Dude, don't listen to the freaking out people. If you don't get terminated, it's no biggie. As someone said before, I'm sure your employer has loss insurance.

If you do get terminated, it could look bad though. If you are terminated, I would clarify with your employer whether you are suspected of the loss. If so, you do need to get a lawyer. If not, have them swear an affidavit to the fact that you were terminated for negligence and not for suspected theft. If they won't do this, once again, you need to get a lawyer. You absolutely have to have documentation showing you were not discharged for suspicion of theft.

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Kiersten1985
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Re: Character and Fitness - stupid mistake on the job

Postby Kiersten1985 » Tue May 25, 2010 10:29 am

Miracle wrote:Just because you were short $1000 does not mean that you stold it. It could be a simple mistake-nothing more than that, but if you did not steal the money why in the world would you act as if you did.


I have to agree with this. First, TALK TO A LAWYER, to be sure. But I would think that offering to pay the missing money is somehow implicating yourself in the theft. Almost like paying your employer off to not file charge (though I don't think your employer would/should file charges anyway).

Don't offer to pay anything until you talk to a lawyer. I might even talk to a couple if I were you. Hope everything works out, and I have a strong feeling that it will.

d34d9823
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Re: Character and Fitness - stupid mistake on the job

Postby d34d9823 » Tue May 25, 2010 10:36 am

Kiersten1985 wrote:
Miracle wrote:Just because you were short $1000 does not mean that you stold it. It could be a simple mistake-nothing more than that, but if you did not steal the money why in the world would you act as if you did.


I have to agree with this. First, TALK TO A LAWYER, to be sure. But I would think that offering to pay the missing money is somehow implicating yourself in the theft. Almost like paying your employer off to not file charge (though I don't think your employer would/should file charges anyway).

Don't offer to pay anything until you talk to a lawyer. I might even talk to a couple if I were you. Hope everything works out, and I have a strong feeling that it will.

To add to this, no reputable company will accept an employee's offer to pay for a loss. It's akin to paying people under the table. It's extremely shady and you should NOT offer to do this. The only reason I can think of for someone to do something so shady is if they actually did steal it and are trying to buy their way out.

andreea7
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Re: Character and Fitness - stupid mistake on the job

Postby andreea7 » Tue May 25, 2010 10:51 am

I will preface this by saying I am not extremely knowledgeable about this sort of thing. And while I do not have an answer to the character and fitness question since I am not familiar with the disclosure requirements, etc. I do know that certain things in your background may hunt you at some point when you least expect it. One of my friends went for a government job and the background check turned up all sort of things, including a really old employment where she was terminated for some silly reason. As far as I am aware it did not affect her because things were explained, etc. but it seems to me that in this situation the most important thingis to make sure it is all good with your employer. If your employer doesn't write you up or terminate you because of this, I wouldn't worry much. Just work even harder than before.

Suppose this did not involve money. Would an error on your job be an issue if let's say you filed a report labeled the wrong way or sent it late or something? No. You work with money, and errors are bound to happen because we are humans. So while you should of course take responsability for it and be willing to take the fall should your employer want to deduct the money from your paycheck, I don't think you need to make it any bigger than it is. But make sure you know where your employer stands on this.

Action Jackson
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Re: Character and Fitness - stupid mistake on the job

Postby Action Jackson » Tue May 25, 2010 11:04 am

To be clear, this isn't like a stereo goes missing from the store and a random employee walks up and offers to cover the cost. OP handled money. OP's balance went short (by a lot). It's not unreasonable for this to come out of OP's paycheck. Back in high school I worked the register at a dime store and one day fell $10 short. It came out of my paycheck (I didn't have a choice in the matter, either). I don't think OP immediately, or thereabouts, offering to cover the cost of his mistake is an admission of guilt. I just can't see how "You can take it out of my paycheck," can be interpreted as "I stole your money." But what do I know.

Suppose this did not involve money.


The problem is that for C&F purposes you can't. C&F is very worried about lawyers grifting their clients. That's why debt blocks bar admission in some cases. An incident involving money in an employment capacity is much worse than getting fired from a job because you sucked at it. That's why I think OP should take this seriously. It's not just a mistake on the job, which would be no big deal. This involves money. OP needs to be careful.

andreea7
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Re: Character and Fitness - stupid mistake on the job

Postby andreea7 » Tue May 25, 2010 11:09 am

Action Jackson wrote:To be clear, this isn't like a stereo goes missing from the store and a random employee walks up and offers to cover the cost. OP handled money. OP's balance went short (by a lot). It's not unreasonable for this to come out of OP's paycheck. Back in high school I worked the register at a dime store and one day fell $10 short. It came out of my paycheck (I didn't have a choice in the matter, either). I don't think OP immediately, or thereabouts, offering to cover the cost of his mistake is an admission of guilt. I just can't see how "You can take it out of my paycheck," can be interpreted as "I stole your money." But what do I know.

Suppose this did not involve money.


The problem is that for C&F purposes you can't. C&F is very worried about lawyers grifting their clients. That's why debt blocks bar admission in some cases. An incident involving money in an employment capacity is much worse than getting fired from a job because you sucked at it. That's why I think OP should take this seriously. It's not just a mistake on the job, which would be no big deal. This involves money. OP needs to be careful.


Of course OP needs to be careful. I was not saying any less than that - quite the contrary, I advised to focus on making sure the employer understands he did not take the money and to agree to cover from his paycheck if need be. But I am not sure I understand why as long as this is cleared up with the employer and he is not terminated or written up this is something that would even come up as an issue ever again. It would?

ScaredWorkedBored
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Re: Character and Fitness - stupid mistake on the job

Postby ScaredWorkedBored » Tue May 25, 2010 11:18 am

Get a lawyer (ideally one who handles both criminal & bar admission) and stop taking message board advice.

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PigNipple
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Re: Character and Fitness - stupid mistake on the job

Postby PigNipple » Tue May 25, 2010 11:19 am

You're screwed. You will never be able to practice, time to find a new career - bank robber maybe?

09042014
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Re: Character and Fitness - stupid mistake on the job

Postby 09042014 » Tue May 25, 2010 11:52 am

quickquestionthanks wrote:If you are terminated, you should ask that you be allowed to take a polygraph and have the results placed in your personnel file in case it is ever pulled.


Pollygraphs are junk science and are easily manipulated.

09042014
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Re: Character and Fitness - stupid mistake on the job

Postby 09042014 » Tue May 25, 2010 11:55 am

I'm going to say it again, offering to pay back money, makes it look like you are trying to give back stolen money without admitting it.

It is fucking retarded to do so.

I cost my company 60K dollars, I didn't offer to work a year for free.

Action Jackson
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Re: Character and Fitness - stupid mistake on the job

Postby Action Jackson » Tue May 25, 2010 12:12 pm

Desert Fox wrote:I'm going to say it again, offering to pay back money, makes it look like you are trying to give back stolen money without admitting it.

It is fucking retarded to do so.

I cost my company 60K dollars, I didn't offer to work a year for free.

Because had you offered to work for free your employers would have realized you had cost them $60k on purpose...?

And he's not supposed to offer to "pay back" the money. He's supposed to offer to cover his mistake. Which, again, is not unreasonable for someone working a register.

09042014
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Re: Character and Fitness - stupid mistake on the job

Postby 09042014 » Tue May 25, 2010 12:14 pm

Action Jackson wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:I'm going to say it again, offering to pay back money, makes it look like you are trying to give back stolen money without admitting it.

It is fucking retarded to do so.

I cost my company 60K dollars, I didn't offer to work a year for free.

Because had you offered to work for free your employers would have realized you had cost them $60k on purpose...?

And he's not supposed to offer to "pay back" the money. He's supposed to offer to cover his mistake. Which, again, is not unreasonable for someone working a register.


I worked as a cashier, it is very unreasonable. Offering is shady as fuck.

d34d9823
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Re: Character and Fitness - stupid mistake on the job

Postby d34d9823 » Tue May 25, 2010 12:15 pm

Action Jackson wrote:Because had you offered to work for free your employers would have realized you had cost them $60k on purpose...?

And he's not supposed to offer to "pay back" the money. He's supposed to offer to cover his mistake. Which, again, is not unreasonable for someone working a register.

Yeah dude, it is. It's not professional. A lot of us work jobs with inherent risk. Like DF said, no one is coughing up their salary when they screw up. I could see if you were working a till at McDonalds or something, but even then, it's a shady move for your boss to ask you to cover it.

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PigNipple
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Re: Character and Fitness - stupid mistake on the job

Postby PigNipple » Tue May 25, 2010 12:16 pm

Just tell them you're Robin Hood and that you stole the money for the poor. And make sure that they do not see those new rims on your car.

d34d9823
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Re: Character and Fitness - stupid mistake on the job

Postby d34d9823 » Tue May 25, 2010 12:17 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
Action Jackson wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:I'm going to say it again, offering to pay back money, makes it look like you are trying to give back stolen money without admitting it.

It is fucking retarded to do so.

I cost my company 60K dollars, I didn't offer to work a year for free.

Because had you offered to work for free your employers would have realized you had cost them $60k on purpose...?

And he's not supposed to offer to "pay back" the money. He's supposed to offer to cover his mistake. Which, again, is not unreasonable for someone working a register.


I worked as a cashier, it is very unreasonable. Offering is shady as fuck.

I also worked as a cashier back in the day. It just isn't done. If you offer, your boss is likely to freak out because of the questionable ethical position you put him in.

JOThompson
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Re: Character and Fitness - stupid mistake on the job

Postby JOThompson » Tue May 25, 2010 12:22 pm

I still don't understand why someone would pocket the money, immediately follow protocol and report it missing, and then immediately offer to cover his mistake. Where is any semblance of profit in that? How could anyone reasonably assume the OP stole the money? It would be incredibly bold or insane and I doubt the OP is either.

I do work as a cashier and if my till was significantly unintentionally short, I'd feel the responsibility to repay it. Maybe I was wrongly raised to admit my mistakes (intentional or not) and attempt to correct them. I didn't realize that was a path to failure for C&F.

d34d9823
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Re: Character and Fitness - stupid mistake on the job

Postby d34d9823 » Tue May 25, 2010 12:26 pm

JOThompson wrote:I still don't understand why someone would pocket the money, immediately follow protocol and report it missing, and then immediately offer to cover his mistake. Where is any semblance of profit in that? How could anyone reasonably assume the OP stole the money? It would be incredibly bold or insane and I doubt the OP is either.

I do work as a cashier and if my till was significantly unintentionally short, I'd feel the responsibility to repay it. Maybe I was wrongly raised to admit my mistakes (intentional or not) and attempt to correct them. I didn't realize that was a path to failure for C&F.

I see your point as to his innocence. That said, in my profession, it would be extremely unprofessional to even bring up repaying it. Unless it's in his employment contract, it's a bad idea IMO. They should have insurance anyway. The best thing to do is follow all the appropriate company procedures and consult with your supervisor.

Action Jackson
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Re: Character and Fitness - stupid mistake on the job

Postby Action Jackson » Tue May 25, 2010 12:31 pm

d34dluk3 wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
Action Jackson wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:I'm going to say it again, offering to pay back money, makes it look like you are trying to give back stolen money without admitting it.

It is fucking retarded to do so.

I cost my company 60K dollars, I didn't offer to work a year for free.

Because had you offered to work for free your employers would have realized you had cost them $60k on purpose...?

And he's not supposed to offer to "pay back" the money. He's supposed to offer to cover his mistake. Which, again, is not unreasonable for someone working a register.


I worked as a cashier, it is very unreasonable. Offering is shady as fuck.

I also worked as a cashier back in the day. It just isn't done. If you offer, your boss is likely to freak out because of the questionable ethical position you put him in.

What is the ethical quandary? Employees royally fucks up at work with money. You make employee cover the loss out of his paycheck. OP's employment contract probably has a provision that gives the employer the power to deduct deficits from his paycheck. Usually for 10 cents no on cares, but if a lot of money is missing the boss might exercise their right to do that.

I still don't understand why someone would pocket the money, immediately follow protocol and report it missing, and then immediately offer to cover his mistake. Where is any semblance of profit in that? How could anyone reasonably assume the OP stole the money? It would be incredibly bold or insane and I doubt the OP is either.


Well said. I don't understand what the confusion is.

But, like I mentioned about myself, OP might not even get a choice in whether or not his wages are deducted. His boss might just do it. And fire him. Or not. Who knows.

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Janus
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Re: Character and Fitness - stupid mistake on the job

Postby Janus » Tue May 25, 2010 12:34 pm

I don't think he should offer to cover the loss if his company investigates and clears him.

Only if he is terminated, does he need to take some action. Maybe consult a lawyer, but I'm not sure here?

Anecdotally, I worked food and beverage for many years. It is NOT uncommon for you to have to pay back money, if you are short. I've seen this happen a lot (not necessarily to me, but people I've worked with). IT SUCKS.

I also knew a girl who worked at the same law firm as I did. She was offered a new job (I believe at another law firm). They called her previous employers. She had ONE indiscretion (I believe she was short) with money years ago and was fired over it. He new employer rescinded the job offer. Our firm would not take her back because she had already put her notice in, and subsequently, she was unemployed. *This is probably an extreme scenario, but nonetheless these things can come back and haunt you.*

All this being said, I don't think you should go into hysterics just yet. Just wait and see what your employer says. If you really are innocent and were the person who merely discovered the mistake, but maybe disovered it later than you should have, you should not draw attention to it at all right now.

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Mattalones
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Re: Character and Fitness - stupid mistake on the job

Postby Mattalones » Tue May 25, 2010 12:37 pm

Here is what can happen:

HR will put it in your file OR they won't.

If they do, then worry about how to mitigate you C&F problems.

If they don't, the BAR will almost certainly not know about it. They just pull your files from HR and (maybe) call your managers. You need to just be sure that your managers remember you as a good employee, but talking about this too much will make them associate it with you. Just wait and see what happens and don't mention it. Be normal, answer questions only if they come up, and don't lose any more money.

You can ask a lawyer if you really want, but make sure it stays on the DL because you don't want your employer knowing you sought legal counsel about this; it'll make you look MAD SHADY!

Exception: If you feel like you know your boss/company well enough to be almost certain what they will do, then prepare for that inclination. Doing the "wait and see" is pointless if you already know what they will do. In any case, don't bring it up any more and hope they find the money in someone else's drawer.

Good luck

d34d9823
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Re: Character and Fitness - stupid mistake on the job

Postby d34d9823 » Tue May 25, 2010 12:38 pm

Action Jackson wrote:What is the ethical quandary? Employees royally fucks up at work with money. You make employee cover the loss out of his paycheck. OP's employment contract probably has a provision that gives the employer the power to deduct deficits from his paycheck. Usually for 10 cents no on cares, but if a lot of money is missing the boss might exercise their right to do that.

It puts your boss in a bad position because unless it's in your contract, he would be opening himself up to liability by suggesting that you repay it out of your pocket. So even if he didn't suggest it, he doesn't want to discuss it because of the possibility that anything he says could be taken out of context in the future.

Where have you been working that has this provision in the contract though? I've never had that in my employment contracts and I've worked a till more than once. My impression has been that it's a very shady employment practice. It's much more common to just fire people who screw up.

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PigNipple
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Re: Character and Fitness - stupid mistake on the job

Postby PigNipple » Tue May 25, 2010 12:46 pm

JOThompson wrote:I still don't understand why someone would pocket the money, immediately follow protocol and report it missing, and then immediately offer to cover his mistake. Where is any semblance of profit in that? How could anyone reasonably assume the OP stole the money? It would be incredibly bold or insane and I doubt the OP is either.

I do work as a cashier and if my till was significantly unintentionally short, I'd feel the responsibility to repay it. Maybe I was wrongly raised to admit my mistakes (intentional or not) and attempt to correct them. I didn't realize that was a path to failure for C&F.


Step 1: He pockets the money and deposits it in his glove compartment during a 15 min break.

Step 2: He reports the incident "immediately," hoping that by doing so he will be eliminated as a suspect and therefore face no disciplinary actions.

Step 3: When he finds out that he will face disciplinary actions, he contrives a plan to replace the stolen money that will help him avoid having to admit to theft, which will be far more damaging to his employment record and certainly be more damning on his ethics report to the bar.

Nothing insane about this scenario. I worked as a cashier through my undergrad, and while it is possible to short change the register from 1 to even 100 dollars by mistakenly handing a large bill as change for what should have been a smaller bill, short changing the register $1000.00 DOES throw up a red flag to employers, because it is simply impossible to do this unless 1: you are special needs stupid, or more likely 2: you stole it. This is why it is such a big deal, because quite simply this sort of thing does not happen unless you pulled something really shady.
Last edited by PigNipple on Tue May 25, 2010 1:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Mattalones
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Re: Character and Fitness - stupid mistake on the job

Postby Mattalones » Tue May 25, 2010 1:19 pm

If he were smart and found a $2,000 overage, he could have pulled $3,000 and reported a $1,000 shortage, offering to "pay it out of his pocket." He'd still be up 2Gs :lol:




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