NALP Employment Data Released - 88.3%

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Mr. Matlock
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NALP Employment Data Released - 88.3%

Postby Mr. Matlock » Thu May 20, 2010 2:52 pm

Although the number sounds good, it isn't. :cry:

Analyses of the NALP Employment Report and Salary Survey for the Class of 2009 reveal an overall employment rate of 88.3% of graduates for whom employment status was known, a rate that has decreased for two years in a row, decreasing 3.6 percentage points from the recent historical high of 91.9% for the Class of 2007. The employment figure for the Class of 2009 also marks the lowest employment rate since the mid-1990s.

“There are dozens of reasons why the employment report for the Class of 2009 will be different than those that preceded it, and dozens of reasons why the data that has been gathered will require special explanation and analysis to make sense of it,” said NALP Executive Director James Leipold in commentary accompanying the Selected Findings. He noted that while the employment rate of 88.3% may seem stronger than expected, when the statistic is teased apart, it begins to reveal some of the fundamental weaknesses in the job market faced by this class.


Full articles:
--LinkRemoved--
http://www.nalp.org/2009selectedfindingsrelease

Full PDF Breakdown:
http://www.nalp.org/uploads/Class_of_2009_Selected_Findings.pdf

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A'nold
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Re: NALP Employment Data Released - 88.3%

Postby A'nold » Thu May 20, 2010 3:47 pm

This doesn't apply to me b/c I'd be happy making 80-90k starting out, just like Brooklyn Law's average salary stats say! I don't need biglaw like the greedy peeps on here.

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holydonkey
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Re: NALP Employment Data Released - 88.3%

Postby holydonkey » Thu May 20, 2010 3:51 pm

In before Fabian Ronisky

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jchoggan
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Re: NALP Employment Data Released - 88.3%

Postby jchoggan » Thu May 20, 2010 3:55 pm

A'nold wrote:This doesn't apply to me b/c I'd be happy making 80-90k starting out, just like Brooklyn Law's average salary stats say! I don't need biglaw like the greedy peeps on here.


Dude, I know you're on here a lot... you must know better than this.

Avg Salary =/= salary available to any new lawyer. You make $160+k or $45k... period. If you 'don't need biglaw,' enjoy making $45k. The 'greedy peeps' you speak of generally just need to pay off loans, and that won't cut it.

edit: of couse, if I misread you and you're joking, it's hilarious. :)

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romothesavior
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Re: NALP Employment Data Released - 88.3%

Postby romothesavior » Thu May 20, 2010 4:00 pm

jchoggan wrote:
A'nold wrote:This doesn't apply to me b/c I'd be happy making 80-90k starting out, just like Brooklyn Law's average salary stats say! I don't need biglaw like the greedy peeps on here.


Dude, I know you're on here a lot... you must know better than this.

Avg Salary =/= salary available to any new lawyer. You make $160+k or $45k... period. If you 'don't need biglaw,' enjoy making $45k. The 'greedy peeps' you speak of generally just need to pay off loans, and that won't cut it.

edit: of couse, if I misread you and you're joking, it's hilarious. :)


Sarcasm fail.

Also, your post is simply wrong. 160 vs. 45? Please. Many, many reputable firms (especially in smaller markets) pay 100k, 120k, 145k, etc.

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SamSeaborn2016
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Re: NALP Employment Data Released - 88.3%

Postby SamSeaborn2016 » Thu May 20, 2010 4:01 pm

A'nold wrote:This doesn't apply to me b/c I'd be happy making 80-90k starting out, just like Brooklyn Law's average salary stats say! I don't need biglaw like the greedy peeps on here.



:lol:
nicely done, sir.

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GordonBombay
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Re: NALP Employment Data Released - 88.3%

Postby GordonBombay » Thu May 20, 2010 4:11 pm

romothesavior wrote:
jchoggan wrote:
A'nold wrote:This doesn't apply to me b/c I'd be happy making 80-90k starting out, just like Brooklyn Law's average salary stats say! I don't need biglaw like the greedy peeps on here.


Dude, I know you're on here a lot... you must know better than this.

Avg Salary =/= salary available to any new lawyer. You make $160+k or $45k... period. If you 'don't need biglaw,' enjoy making $45k. The 'greedy peeps' you speak of generally just need to pay off loans, and that won't cut it.

edit: of couse, if I misread you and you're joking, it's hilarious. :)


Sarcasm fail.

Also, your post is simply wrong. 160 vs. 45? Please. Many, many reputable firms (especially in smaller markets) pay 100k, 120k, 145k, etc.




I second this. I can only speak from research, not firsthand experience but I know there are plenty of firms in NY and DC that pay above 90 but below 160. I think the more important aspect is the secondary markets that pay around 90-100/ year at their biggest firms. So its still the "BIGLAW" of someplace, just not the firms most people usually think about. I had been wondering is that what people mean when they say things like "Boise BigLaw"?

recaldo
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Re: NALP Employment Data Released - 88.3%

Postby recaldo » Thu May 20, 2010 4:12 pm

this is horseshit. There is no way 88% of law school grads have jobs right now. I know like 40 people at columbia university who do not. Have of WUSTL doesnt have any sort of job. I do not believe these stats.

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webbylu87
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Re: NALP Employment Data Released - 88.3%

Postby webbylu87 » Thu May 20, 2010 4:21 pm

recaldo wrote:this is horseshit. There is no way 88% of law school grads have jobs right now. I know like 40 people at columbia university who do not. Have of WUSTL doesnt have any sort of job. I do not believe these stats.


First off, this is for the Class of 2009 not people just finishing up 3L year (aka Class of 2010). Second off, this is a 9 month out statistic is it not? They are not saying 88% of the Class of 2009 had jobs at graduation.

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jchoggan
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Re: NALP Employment Data Released - 88.3%

Postby jchoggan » Thu May 20, 2010 4:24 pm

romothesavior wrote:
jchoggan wrote:
A'nold wrote:This doesn't apply to me b/c I'd be happy making 80-90k starting out, just like Brooklyn Law's average salary stats say! I don't need biglaw like the greedy peeps on here.


Dude, I know you're on here a lot... you must know better than this.

Avg Salary =/= salary available to any new lawyer. You make $160+k or $45k... period. If you 'don't need biglaw,' enjoy making $45k. The 'greedy peeps' you speak of generally just need to pay off loans, and that won't cut it.

edit: of couse, if I misread you and you're joking, it's hilarious. :)


Sarcasm fail.

Also, your post is simply wrong. 160 vs. 45? Please. Many, many reputable firms (especially in smaller markets) pay 100k, 120k, 145k, etc.


*eye roll*. Yes, there are "many" firms that pay less than market. My comment was intentionally overbroad, but not by much. We've all seen the crazy bimodal salary distribution charts with huge spikes at 160 and 40-50. My point is the vast majority of jobs fall into one of these two categories, so to bank on the idea that you can just 'fall back' on a $90k 'mid-law' firm is probably a bigger gamble than banking on biglaw. I'm sure A'nold knows that (we all do)... just didn't catch the sarcasm the first go around, I guess.

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A'nold
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Re: NALP Employment Data Released - 88.3%

Postby A'nold » Thu May 20, 2010 4:44 pm

For realz though, people often misread the bimodal chart and assume that most jobs fall into either of the two extremes. Talk to Rayiner, the guy is a numbers whiz and a very freakin' smart dude overall. The barren wasteland that is the middle of the chart actually makes up like 1/3 of the jobs reported on the chart. There are these kinds of "midlaw" jobs (at least before ITE) but they are more spread out.

As for me, I truly will fall into one of the two extremes, out of necessity. If I strike out at OCI this year, I will fully devote 100% of my time to getting into gov. law, most likely prosecution b/c I have SO MUCH to pay off in loans. Biglaw wasn't even an option (and likely still isn't) before I received my grades last fall (and at least one from this Spring). My wife is pretty adamant and I am on the fence that it would be in our best interest to do biglaw (at market rate) if I can somehow manage to land a 2L SA at least for awhile to pay down debt. If that does not pan out, it is gov. for sure for me, so I can use the IBR and work less hours. I will not miss time with my family to be making the equivalent of 40k a year b/c of my high loan debt for an 80k-100k job (even if that were possible). I'm "biglaw/gov. or bust" haha.

Speaking of "Boise Biglaw": that is actually an option for me but it appears at first glance that the firms pay too low to make it a worthwhile venture b/c of what I said above. However, b/c of the low COL in Idaho it could possibly be worthwhile and I'd have to crunch the #'s again.

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Mr. Matlock
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Re: NALP Employment Data Released - 88.3%

Postby Mr. Matlock » Thu May 20, 2010 4:52 pm

recaldo wrote:this is horseshit. There is no way 88% of law school grads have jobs right now. I know like 40 people at columbia university who do not. Have of WUSTL doesnt have any sort of job. I do not believe these stats.

Perhaps you should read the links?????? Hmmmmm??????

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romothesavior
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Re: NALP Employment Data Released - 88.3%

Postby romothesavior » Thu May 20, 2010 6:59 pm

betasteve wrote:
jchoggan wrote:
romothesavior wrote:
jchoggan wrote:
Dude, I know you're on here a lot... you must know better than this.

Avg Salary =/= salary available to any new lawyer. You make $160+k or $45k... period. If you 'don't need biglaw,' enjoy making $45k. The 'greedy peeps' you speak of generally just need to pay off loans, and that won't cut it.

edit: of couse, if I misread you and you're joking, it's hilarious. :)


Sarcasm fail.

Also, your post is simply wrong. 160 vs. 45? Please. Many, many reputable firms (especially in smaller markets) pay 100k, 120k, 145k, etc.


*eye roll*. Yes, there are "many" firms that pay less than market. My comment was intentionally overbroad, but not by much. We've all seen the crazy bimodal salary distribution charts with huge spikes at 160 and 40-50. My point is the vast majority of jobs fall into one of these two categories, so to bank on the idea that you can just 'fall back' on a $90k 'mid-law' firm is probably a bigger gamble than banking on biglaw. I'm sure A'nold knows that (we all do)... just didn't catch the sarcasm the first go around, I guess.

You don't know how to integrate, do you? You can't, because if you did you'd realize there are actually a fuckton of jobs between the two spikes on the bimodal curve.


+1

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IzziesGal
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Re: NALP Employment Data Released - 88.3%

Postby IzziesGal » Thu May 20, 2010 7:01 pm

betasteve wrote:
You don't know how to integrate, do you? You can't, because if you did you'd realize there are actually a fuckton of jobs between the two spikes on the bimodal curve.


I miss you, betasteve. We haven't talked since we decided to run for office together about 1,000 posts ago. :(

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thesealocust
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Re: NALP Employment Data Released - 88.3%

Postby thesealocust » Thu May 20, 2010 7:03 pm

oops
Last edited by thesealocust on Tue Jun 29, 2010 8:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Matthies
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Re: NALP Employment Data Released - 88.3%

Postby Matthies » Thu May 20, 2010 7:05 pm

jchoggan wrote:
romothesavior wrote:
jchoggan wrote:
A'nold wrote:This doesn't apply to me b/c I'd be happy making 80-90k starting out, just like Brooklyn Law's average salary stats say! I don't need biglaw like the greedy peeps on here.


Dude, I know you're on here a lot... you must know better than this.

Avg Salary =/= salary available to any new lawyer. You make $160+k or $45k... period. If you 'don't need biglaw,' enjoy making $45k. The 'greedy peeps' you speak of generally just need to pay off loans, and that won't cut it.

edit: of couse, if I misread you and you're joking, it's hilarious. :)


Sarcasm fail.

Also, your post is simply wrong. 160 vs. 45? Please. Many, many reputable firms (especially in smaller markets) pay 100k, 120k, 145k, etc.


*eye roll*. Yes, there are "many" firms that pay less than market. My comment was intentionally overbroad, but not by much. We've all seen the crazy bimodal salary distribution charts with huge spikes at 160 and 40-50. My point is the vast majority of jobs fall into one of these two categories, so to bank on the idea that you can just 'fall back' on a $90k 'mid-law' firm is probably a bigger gamble than banking on biglaw.


Any idea what created the "bi modal" chart, or what was desgined to show? Also you don't get mid-law/mid pay jobs from OCI, hence most students won't get them

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Matthies
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Re: NALP Employment Data Released - 88.3%

Postby Matthies » Thu May 20, 2010 7:06 pm

thesealocust wrote:
A'nold wrote:This doesn't apply to me b/c I'd be happy making 80-90k starting out, just like Brooklyn Law's average salary stats say! I don't need biglaw like the greedy peeps on here.


I would propose to you, but I am already married to the sea.


Brandy your a fine girl , what a good wife you would be...

Kobe_Teeth
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Re: NALP Employment Data Released - 88.3%

Postby Kobe_Teeth » Thu May 20, 2010 7:10 pm

betasteve wrote:
jchoggan wrote:
jchoggan wrote:
A'nold wrote:This doesn't apply to me b/c I'd be happy making 80-90k starting out, just like Brooklyn Law's average salary stats say! I don't need biglaw like the greedy peeps on here.


Dude, I know you're on here a lot... you must know better than this.

Avg Salary =/= salary available to any new lawyer. You make $160+k or $45k... period. If you 'don't need biglaw,' enjoy making $45k. The 'greedy peeps' you speak of generally just need to pay off loans, and that won't cut it.

edit: of couse, if I misread you and you're joking, it's hilarious. :)



*eye roll*. Yes, there are "many" firms that pay less than market. My comment was intentionally overbroad, but not by much. We've all seen the crazy bimodal salary distribution charts with huge spikes at 160 and 40-50. My point is the vast majority of jobs fall into one of these two categories, so to bank on the idea that you can just 'fall back' on a $90k 'mid-law' firm is probably a bigger gamble than banking on biglaw. I'm sure A'nold knows that (we all do)... just didn't catch the sarcasm the first go around, I guess.

You don't know how to integrate, do you? You can't, because if you did you'd realize there are actually a fuckton of jobs between the two spikes on the bimodal curve.



+1
I'm a math retard so I just pulled up the picture and moved my finger across the screen and added in my head. Each little notch between 72,000 and 160,000 is at about 1-3%. If you add all that up, I think it ends up being around 30some%. That's nothing to laugh at.

Kobe_Teeth
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Re: NALP Employment Data Released - 88.3%

Postby Kobe_Teeth » Thu May 20, 2010 7:14 pm

Matthies wrote:
romothesavior wrote:
jchoggan wrote:
A'nold wrote:This doesn't apply to me b/c I'd be happy making 80-90k starting out, just like Brooklyn Law's average salary stats say! I don't need biglaw like the greedy peeps on here.


Dude, I know you're on here a lot... you must know better than this.

Avg Salary =/= salary available to any new lawyer. You make $160+k or $45k... period. If you 'don't need biglaw,' enjoy making $45k. The 'greedy peeps' you speak of generally just need to pay off loans, and that won't cut it.

edit: of couse, if I misread you and you're joking, it's hilarious. :)

Also, your post is simply wrong. 160 vs. 45? Please. Many, many reputable firms (especially in smaller markets) pay 100k, 120k, 145k, etc.


*eye roll*. Yes, there are "many" firms that pay less than market. My comment was intentionally overbroad, but not by much. We've all seen the crazy bimodal salary distribution charts with huge spikes at 160 and 40-50. My point is the vast majority of jobs fall into one of these two categories, so to bank on the idea that you can just 'fall back' on a $90k 'mid-law' firm is probably a bigger gamble than banking on biglaw.


Any idea what created the "bi modal" chart, or it what was desgined to show? Also you don't get mid-law/mid pay jobs from OCI, hence most students won't get them


I think someone at NALP saw it and thought the same thing as everyone here seems to think - there's no such thing as a mid-level firm.

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GATORTIM
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Re: NALP Employment Data Released - 88.3%

Postby GATORTIM » Thu May 20, 2010 7:18 pm

I'm going to law school for intellectual enrichment; I place the massive paycheck and unlimited open career options at a distant 2 and 2a.

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A'nold
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Re: NALP Employment Data Released - 88.3%

Postby A'nold » Thu May 20, 2010 8:10 pm

thesealocust wrote:
A'nold wrote:This doesn't apply to me b/c I'd be happy making 80-90k starting out, just like Brooklyn Law's average salary stats say! I don't need biglaw like the greedy peeps on here.


I would propose to you, but I am already married to the sea.

:cry: :cry:

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Aberzombie1892
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Re: NALP Employment Data Released - 88.3%

Postby Aberzombie1892 » Thu May 20, 2010 8:23 pm

All NLJ250 offices in secondary markets pay between $75,000-$145,000.

What's a secondary market?

Pretty much everywhere that isn't NYC, Chicago, Dallas, Houston, DC, Atlanta, Philadelphia, Boston, and a variety of CA cities (I don't feel like naming them).

People seem to forget that NLJ firms have offices in many secondary markets. Oh and these firms do OCI for these offices, so one can get a $90,000 big law offer from OCI. Not only that, but many non-NLJ firms pay in that range as well.

Are these smaller firms hard to get jobs with? Generally the smaller the firm, the harder it is to get in right after school. However there are other factors (such as the prestige of the firm) which would have to be taken into account.

I personally think it's funny that people think NLJ250=$160,000 and that if you miss NLJ250 you either won't have a job or will be making $45,000. For the record, the bimodal chart only shows roughly HALF of all salaries for that year. It says so directly underneath it on the NALP page, for people that feel like verifying that (23,000 surveyed and about 45,000 graduates = roughly half).

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thesealocust
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Re: NALP Employment Data Released - 88.3%

Postby thesealocust » Thu May 20, 2010 9:25 pm

oops
Last edited by thesealocust on Tue Jun 29, 2010 8:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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IzziesGal
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Re: NALP Employment Data Released - 88.3%

Postby IzziesGal » Sat May 22, 2010 12:33 am

betasteve wrote:
IzziesGal wrote:
betasteve wrote:
You don't know how to integrate, do you? You can't, because if you did you'd realize there are actually a fuckton of jobs between the two spikes on the bimodal curve.


I miss you, betasteve. We haven't talked since we decided to run for office together about 1,000 posts ago. :(

I've been here... What happened to you??? ;) I think we'd have done a better job than either the President or McCain.


We still can! Weren't we running in 2012, anyway? :wink:

And I took a 1L hiatus from TLS. This message board stops me from doing anything productive.....like finishing my write-on casenote. Right now. Sigh.

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JCougar
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Re: NALP Employment Data Released - 88.3%

Postby JCougar » Sun May 23, 2010 11:47 pm

Aberzombie1892 wrote:All NLJ250 offices in secondary markets pay between $75,000-$145,000.

What's a secondary market?

Pretty much everywhere that isn't NYC, Chicago, Dallas, Houston, DC, Atlanta, Philadelphia, Boston, and a variety of CA cities (I don't feel like naming them).

People seem to forget that NLJ firms have offices in many secondary markets. Oh and these firms do OCI for these offices, so one can get a $90,000 big law offer from OCI. Not only that, but many non-NLJ firms pay in that range as well.

Are these smaller firms hard to get jobs with? Generally the smaller the firm, the harder it is to get in right after school. However there are other factors (such as the prestige of the firm) which would have to be taken into account.

I personally think it's funny that people think NLJ250=$160,000 and that if you miss NLJ250 you either won't have a job or will be making $45,000. For the record, the bimodal chart only shows roughly HALF of all salaries for that year. It says so directly underneath it on the NALP page, for people that feel like verifying that (23,000 surveyed and about 45,000 graduates = roughly half).


+1000

People don't realize that a lot of NLJ 250 jobs pay $90K-$120K if you're in a smaller city like Milwaukee, Kansas City, Tampa, Orlando, Nashville, Indianapolis, Charlotte, Cincinnati, Pittsburgh, etc.

I can't speak to the number of medium-sized firms that also pay in that range, though. Not sure if there is any way to measure that. Very few of them do OCI, that is for sure.




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