Above-market firms

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expat
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Above-market firms

Postby expat » Wed May 12, 2010 2:50 pm

Out of curiosity, which firms pay above market? With the exception of Wachtell (which I realize is because of the bonus, not the base), I have only ever heard people say "some boutiques."

Voyager
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Re: Above-market firms

Postby Voyager » Wed May 12, 2010 3:15 pm

expat wrote:Out of curiosity, which firms pay above market? With the exception of Wachtell (which I realize is because of the bonus, not the base), I have only ever heard people say "some boutiques."


No firm that hires entry level attorneys is paying "above market." So don't worry about that.

What you need to worry about are the firms that pay below market or are about to pay below market or have slashed their bonuses or about to withdraw offers before the summer even starts or plan on no offering half of the class or decide they are no offering half the class during the final week of the summer or plan on announcing the deferral of your full time start date fall 3L year or announce it the summer after you graduate or wait until a month before your start date to indefinitely defer you or withdraw your offer outright or hire you and then "Latham" you 6 months later or hire you etc...

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Rand M.
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Re: Above-market firms

Postby Rand M. » Wed May 12, 2010 3:22 pm

Wachtell's base-pay is actually 165k, so slightly above market. Boies comes to mind as one that does hire entry level and pays slightly above market. For the most part we're talking about 5-10k over, so nothing drastic.

imchuckbass58
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Re: Above-market firms

Postby imchuckbass58 » Wed May 12, 2010 3:28 pm

Voyager wrote:
expat wrote:Out of curiosity, which firms pay above market? With the exception of Wachtell (which I realize is because of the bonus, not the base), I have only ever heard people say "some boutiques."


No firm that hires entry level attorneys is paying "above market." So don't worry about that.



Well that's not really true.

Wachtell, Susman Godfrey, Kellogg Huber Hansen and Williams and Connolly all pay above market (Wachtell and Susman due to bonus, W&C and Kellogg due to higher base pay).

Here are Susman's bonuses (outsize compared to market): --LinkRemoved--

Wachtell ranges from 50%-100% of base typically.

W&C I believe starts its associates at $170K or $175k, but pays smaller bonuses.

That said, OP, to have a shot at any of these firms you will have to be Top 10% + law review at a T6 (not exaggerating), so don't worry about it.

Anonymous User
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Re: Above-market firms

Postby Anonymous User » Wed May 12, 2010 3:32 pm

imchuckbass58 wrote:
Voyager wrote:
expat wrote:Out of curiosity, which firms pay above market? With the exception of Wachtell (which I realize is because of the bonus, not the base), I have only ever heard people say "some boutiques."


No firm that hires entry level attorneys is paying "above market." So don't worry about that.



Well that's not really true.

Wachtell, Susman Godfrey, Kellogg Huber Hansen and Williams and Connolly all pay above market (Wachtell and Susman due to bonus, W&C and Kellogg due to higher base pay).

Here are Susman's bonuses (outsize compared to market): --LinkRemoved--

Wachtell ranges from 50%-100% of base typically.

W&C I believe starts its associates at $170K or $175k, but pays smaller bonuses.

That said, OP, to have a shot at any of these firms you will have to be Top 10% + law review at a T6 (not exaggerating), so don't worry about it.


Keep in mind W&C doesn't pay bonuses, which made them below market many years.

Accurate advice though - a laughably tiny fraction of first year associates make above market, and any place where you can do so it will be because of the absurd hiring selectivity.

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RVP11
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Re: Above-market firms

Postby RVP11 » Sun May 16, 2010 4:14 pm

imchuckbass58 wrote:
Voyager wrote:
expat wrote:Out of curiosity, which firms pay above market? With the exception of Wachtell (which I realize is because of the bonus, not the base), I have only ever heard people say "some boutiques."


No firm that hires entry level attorneys is paying "above market." So don't worry about that.



Well that's not really true.

Wachtell, Susman Godfrey, Kellogg Huber Hansen and Williams and Connolly all pay above market (Wachtell and Susman due to bonus, W&C and Kellogg due to higher base pay).

Here are Susman's bonuses (outsize compared to market): --LinkRemoved--

Wachtell ranges from 50%-100% of base typically.

W&C I believe starts its associates at $170K or $175k, but pays smaller bonuses.

That said, OP, to have a shot at any of these firms you will have to be Top 10% + law review at a T6 (not exaggerating), so don't worry about it.


Boies Schiller also pays $174k, at all of their offices.

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Wahoo1L
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Re: Above-market firms

Postby Wahoo1L » Sun May 16, 2010 7:17 pm

Williams & Connolly pays 180k w/ no bonuses.

Boies also pays above market and gives above market bonuses based upon hours. So if you work 3000 hours, you'll earn more than a person who worked 2500 hours.

Anonymous Loser
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Re: Above-market firms

Postby Anonymous Loser » Sun May 16, 2010 8:58 pm

Are you guys just searching for the most unobtainable jobs in support of this ridiculous "market-plus" salary thread? Seriously, more people have commanded the Space Shuttle than have ever been associates at Susman. The firms you are discussing are competing with one another over impeccably pedigreed 9th/2d/D.C Cir./SCOTUS clerks: of course they pay more than firms hiring students off of the Fordham Law Review.

mhernton
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Re: Above-market firms

Postby mhernton » Sun May 16, 2010 9:02 pm

.

Grad09
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Re: Above-market firms

Postby Grad09 » Mon May 17, 2010 1:31 am

imchuckbass58 wrote:
Voyager wrote:
expat wrote:Out of curiosity, which firms pay above market? With the exception of Wachtell (which I realize is because of the bonus, not the base), I have only ever heard people say "some boutiques."


No firm that hires entry level attorneys is paying "above market." So don't worry about that.



Well that's not really true.

Wachtell, Susman Godfrey, Kellogg Huber Hansen and Williams and Connolly all pay above market (Wachtell and Susman due to bonus, W&C and Kellogg due to higher base pay).

Here are Susman's bonuses (outsize compared to market): --LinkRemoved--

Wachtell ranges from 50%-100% of base typically.

W&C I believe starts its associates at $170K or $175k, but pays smaller bonuses.

That said, OP, to have a shot at any of these firms you will have to be Top 10% + law review at a T6 (not exaggerating), so don't worry about it.


According to their website, Wachtell has partners from Fordham and Associates from Rutgers. I'm sure ITE its a lot tougher, but don't count anyone out.

I am out of the t6 but I hope to be partner at Wachtell some day... being pessimistic won't get me there.

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thesealocust
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Re: Above-market firms

Postby thesealocust » Mon May 17, 2010 1:58 am

oops
Last edited by thesealocust on Wed Jun 30, 2010 8:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Anonymous User
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Re: Above-market firms

Postby Anonymous User » Mon May 17, 2010 8:25 am

Though Kirkland pays market for base salaries, I've heard that bonuses are typically above market, depending on your hours. Some (though not many) even got Skadden-level bonuses in 2008.

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TTT-LS
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Re: Above-market firms

Postby TTT-LS » Mon May 17, 2010 9:44 am

,
Last edited by TTT-LS on Mon Jul 12, 2010 11:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Anonymous User
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Re: Above-market firms

Postby Anonymous User » Mon May 17, 2010 9:53 am

also clarifying: while i dropped kirkland as an example, it wasnt meant to be an example of an above-market paying unattainable firm. i posted it because i think it's not nearly as unattainable as the other firms mentioned in this thread, and gives you a decent shot of making above market.

also, boies is not that unattainable either. they try to recruit the best and the brightest, but those students often have offers at firms with better cultures (i.e., firms with a significant number of equity partners, near 100% SA offer rate, more diversified practices, etc.)

edit: I think Kramer Levin and Irell do some degree of profit-sharing for their associates. Kramer is not that hard to get at all from a top law school, and top third or so at a place like Columbia should give you a good shot at Irell.

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BradyToMoss
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Re: Above-market firms

Postby BradyToMoss » Mon May 17, 2010 12:33 pm

You won't become an associate at Wachtell coming from outside of the t6 (MVP could have an outside chance). Yes, they have a couple partners who aren't from that mold, but something tells me they brought quite the impressive resume/book by the time they headed over to Wachtell.

As mentioned, outside of Wachtell a few places will pay a little better than 160k+ NYC Bonus. W&C does the $180k with no bonus, Boies pays a slightly higher base, Irell has consistently paid 160k with a bonus roughly double in size to the standard bonus NYC firms have been giving out the last few years.

RisingMichigan3L
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Re: Above-market firms

Postby RisingMichigan3L » Mon May 17, 2010 12:45 pm

(MVP could have an outside chance).


MV have 0 chance, since WLRK doesnt recruit at those schools. P has a good chance relative to the rest of the T14, but not as good as HYS. It's so hard to tell because WLRK's summer class is btw 20-30 students every year and the distribution changes.

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BradyToMoss
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Re: Above-market firms

Postby BradyToMoss » Mon May 17, 2010 12:49 pm

RisingMichigan3L wrote:
(MVP could have an outside chance).


MV have 0 chance, since WLRK doesnt recruit at those schools. P has a good chance relative to the rest of the T14, but not as good as HYS. It's so hard to tell because WLRK's summer class is btw 20-30 students every year and the distribution changes.


I remembered seeing a couple associates from MVP when I went through their site, just couldn't remember which one of the 3 so I wanted to throw in a disclaimer to my t6 comment. Now that you mention it, I think Penn was the only one of the 3 listed as an associate's school.

RisingMichigan3L
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Re: Above-market firms

Postby RisingMichigan3L » Mon May 17, 2010 12:51 pm

Michigan had 1 a while ago:

http://www-cs-students.stanford.edu/~ch ... Resume.pdf

yeah. if you're as good as that guy, you will get WLRK.

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BradyToMoss
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Re: Above-market firms

Postby BradyToMoss » Mon May 17, 2010 12:54 pm

RisingMichigan3L wrote:Michigan had 1 a while ago:

http://www-cs-students.stanford.edu/~ch ... Resume.pdf

yeah. if you're as good as that guy, you will get WLRK.


Actually just went through again, 8 or 9 associates from Penn. Also two associates with J.D.s from Northwestern, both also had an MBA From Kellogg though. A Cornell, Notre Dame and 2 Howard J.D.s listed as associates as well.

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Re: Above-market firms

Postby Anonymous User » Mon May 17, 2010 12:55 pm

cornell and ND guys are interesting. howard not so much, since WLRK recruits on campus there (I realize that doesnt count for much, but getting a screening interview>>>>>>>>>>>>sending in a resume)

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underdawg
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Re: Above-market firms

Postby underdawg » Mon May 17, 2010 12:57 pm

RisingMichigan3L wrote:Michigan had 1 a while ago:

http://www-cs-students.stanford.edu/~ch ... Resume.pdf

yeah. if you're as good as that guy, you will get WLRK.

wow what a climber

thechee
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Re: Above-market firms

Postby thechee » Mon May 17, 2010 1:24 pm

RisingMichigan3L wrote:
(MVP could have an outside chance).


MV have 0 chance, since WLRK doesnt recruit at those schools. P has a good chance relative to the rest of the T14, but not as good as HYS. It's so hard to tell because WLRK's summer class is btw 20-30 students every year and the distribution changes.


Among current associates who graduated from law school in the last 5 years (2005-2009), 9 T14s are represented:

Harvard: 22
Columbia: 14
NYU: 11
Penn: 10
Yale:10
Stanford:7
Chicago: 6
Northwestern: 2
Duke: 1

Zero for GULC, Cornell, Michigan, Virginia, and Berkeley.

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Hiei
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Re: Above-market firms

Postby Hiei » Sun May 30, 2010 10:16 pm

thechee wrote:
RisingMichigan3L wrote:
(MVP could have an outside chance).


MV have 0 chance, since WLRK doesnt recruit at those schools. P has a good chance relative to the rest of the T14, but not as good as HYS. It's so hard to tell because WLRK's summer class is btw 20-30 students every year and the distribution changes.


Among current associates who graduated from law school in the last 5 years (2005-2009), 9 T14s are represented:

Harvard: 22
Columbia: 14
NYU: 11
Penn: 10
Yale:10
Stanford:7
Chicago: 6
Northwestern: 2
Duke: 1

Zero for GULC, Cornell, Michigan, Virginia, and Berkeley.


They definitely hire people from UVA every so often. Many of them just left Wachtell for other firms.
http://www.davispolk.com/lawyers/scott-luftglass/

One thing people have to realize about a firm like Wachtell is that working there for a few years and then lateraling can actually be a very attractive thing. When you have worked at a small elite firm like Wachtell (or Williams and Conolly, Boies, Munger etc.) where you get real experience (unlike at many of the other massive V10 firms where you don't get to touch much substantive work) you are a very attractive hire. Actually if you want to make partner at firms like Kirkland and Skadden, you have a better shot working at a small firm that gives substantive work and then lateraling to the larger firms.

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RVP11
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Re: Above-market firms

Postby RVP11 » Sun May 30, 2010 10:23 pm

RisingMichigan3L wrote:
(MVP could have an outside chance).


MV have 0 chance, since WLRK doesnt recruit at those schools. P has a good chance relative to the rest of the T14, but not as good as HYS. It's so hard to tell because WLRK's summer class is btw 20-30 students every year and the distribution changes.


You're putting way too much stock in where the firm recruits. WLRK also does OCI at UCLA/Texas/Howard, but you can bet your ass someone who is top of the class at Virginia/Michigan/Duke probably has just as good or better chances.

RisingMichigan3L
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Re: Above-market firms

Postby RisingMichigan3L » Mon May 31, 2010 8:25 am

but you can bet your ass someone who is top of the class at Virginia/Michigan/Duke probably has just as good or better chances


I, actually, am going to disagree with this. But this is my opinion, so whatever.




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