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Re: Diff. between DC and NYC Legal Market

Posted: Wed May 12, 2010 2:42 pm
by Anonymous User
Do you mean actually handling a full blown trial yourself? Or do you mean observing while the partner handles the trial? Might want to clarify that.

If you want to handle trials yourself ASAP, your best bet is a DA or PDs office, a legal aid organization of some sort, or JAG. Not a large law firm.

Re: Diff. between DC and NYC Legal Market

Posted: Wed May 12, 2010 8:29 pm
by PLATONiC
Well the idea of handling an entire trial myself is pretty daunting. But if it's possible for me to stand in front of the judge every once in a while as a senior associate, that'd be awesome.

Don't some of these firms also take on small cases as well? I remember reading about how a partner grudgingly accepts a small-stakes case and calls up a first year associate to take care of it for him (I remember it saying how the partner just scratches his head and throws the briefs at the poor associate). I'm hoping that these small cases are up for grabs for non-partner litigation team members. I do not want to work for the government fresh out of law school though.

Re: Diff. between DC and NYC Legal Market

Posted: Wed May 12, 2010 8:41 pm
by T14_Scholly
Pearalegal wrote: T-20s have a vague leg up on GULC.


What does that even mean?

Re: Diff. between DC and NYC Legal Market

Posted: Wed May 12, 2010 8:59 pm
by T14_Scholly
Any difference between the two cities in firm culture or hours is going to depend entirely on the firm.

Re: Diff. between DC and NYC Legal Market

Posted: Wed May 12, 2010 9:18 pm
by PLATONiC
T14_Scholly wrote:Any difference between the two cities in firm culture or hours is going to depend entirely on the firm.


I was able to assume that much, of course. I was just trying to inquire whether the differences in the nature of the work that the two cities do has any effect on firm cultures. This is very vague, so I was just trying to obtain a kind of sound-bite opinion.

Re: Diff. between DC and NYC Legal Market

Posted: Thu May 13, 2010 11:07 am
by tinman
PLATONiC wrote:Well the idea of handling an entire trial myself is pretty daunting. But if it's possible for me to stand in front of the judge every once in a while as a senior associate, that'd be awesome.

Don't some of these firms also take on small cases as well? I remember reading about how a partner grudgingly accepts a small-stakes case and calls up a first year associate to take care of it for him (I remember it saying how the partner just scratches his head and throws the briefs at the poor associate). I'm hoping that these small cases are up for grabs for non-partner litigation team members. I do not want to work for the government fresh out of law school though.


I talked to a firm that does IP litigation in DC and then seem to accept a bunch of pro bono works for the precise reason of getting courtroom experience for associates. Seems like an interesting idea: an IP head defending someone charged with a high crime or something like that.

Re: Diff. between DC and NYC Legal Market

Posted: Thu May 13, 2010 9:47 pm
by Anonymous User
RPK34 wrote:Biggest recruits from top DC firms:

Jones Day: UVA
Wilmer: UVA/NYU/BC
Hogan and Hartson: GW
Akin: UVA

And GULC blows all of them out of the water in terms of total grads.


At least for Hogan, this is not even remotely true - for instance, there's only 1 summer from GW this year, whereas there are 11 from Harvard and 6 each from Stanford and UVA. GULC has 3. This pattern is pretty consistent year-over-year, and you can bet that ITE, prestige matters more than ever....DC firms were not afraid to "overlook" DC-based schools this year during OCI.

Re: Diff. between DC and NYC Legal Market

Posted: Thu May 13, 2010 10:03 pm
by RPK34
Anonymous User wrote:
RPK34 wrote:Biggest recruits from top DC firms:

Jones Day: UVA
Wilmer: UVA/NYU/BC
Hogan and Hartson: GW
Akin: UVA

And GULC blows all of them out of the water in terms of total grads.


At least for Hogan, this is not even remotely true - for instance, there's only 1 summer from GW this year, whereas there are 11 from Harvard and 6 each from Stanford and UVA. GULC has 3. This pattern is pretty consistent year-over-year, and you can bet that ITE, prestige matters more than ever....DC firms were not afraid to "overlook" DC-based schools this year during OCI.


At least this was the case in 2009, wher GW led with 6 (according to NLJ). Wouldn't be surprised if that data is wrong or if it's changed though, I'm guessing GW isn't the top recruit at too many Vault25 firms.

Re: Diff. between DC and NYC Legal Market

Posted: Fri May 14, 2010 5:35 pm
by T14_Scholly
Just a little more misinformation on TLS.

Re: Diff. between DC and NYC Legal Market

Posted: Fri May 14, 2010 5:42 pm
by dbt
The D.C. market is generally harder to crack than the NYC market.

The D.C. market is more grades-focused than other markets, generally.

I think both of those are true.

GULC is a good school. If you want to work in D.C. and can't go to UVA or a T6, I imagine GULC is the way to go.

Re: Diff. between DC and NYC Legal Market

Posted: Mon May 17, 2010 5:26 pm
by extragnarls
What importance do DC firms place on market ties? My understanding is that ties are less important for major markets, and that DC firms could care even less than most since it's the most difficult market to crack and few would be looking to use it as a stepping stone for that reason. Can anyone offer any insight?

Re: Diff. between DC and NYC Legal Market

Posted: Mon May 17, 2010 10:58 pm
by thesealocust
oops

Re: Diff. between DC and NYC Legal Market

Posted: Tue May 18, 2010 1:53 pm
by extragnarls
thesealocust wrote:I talked to Dean Lawson about this, she mentioned that ties of some sort are pretty important, but it's more about holding an intelligent conversation demonstrating a desire to go to and remain in a region than it is having a sufficient laundry list of cold, hard 'connections'. But she made it seem like DC still required connections or ties the way any other market did... she said even New York did, but that saying you wanted to work on the fanciest pantsiest deals or whatever would usually be enough to placate them.

I think in general non-major markets 'require' more substantial ties because a T14 grad interviewing for a Boise firm is just going to stand out without a compelling story. But I think even in DC there's a level of screening going on to make sure the student has actually thought about settling in the region - it came up in one form or another every time I interviewed for 1L summer gigs, and I've got just about every tie to the DC market you can imagine.

(P.S. HIIIIII 2L FRIEND we survived!)


Thank you sir. And welcome back. That's good news that interviewers want to discuss ties, then, since that's also an easy talking point for me and a natural segue into one of the few things I can talk about that might be memorable (growing up in the hood, of course).

Re: Diff. between DC and NYC Legal Market

Posted: Tue May 18, 2010 2:04 pm
by creatinganalt
thesealocust wrote:
extragnarls wrote:What importance do DC firms place on market ties? My understanding is that ties are less important for major markets, and that DC firms could care even less than most since it's the most difficult market to crack and few would be looking to use it as a stepping stone for that reason. Can anyone offer any insight?


I talked to Dean Lawson about this, she mentioned that ties of some sort are pretty important, but it's more about holding an intelligent conversation demonstrating a desire to go to and remain in a region than it is having a sufficient laundry list of cold, hard 'connections'. But she made it seem like DC still required connections or ties the way any other market did... she said even New York did, but that saying you wanted to work on the fanciest pantsiest deals or whatever would usually be enough to placate them.

I think in general non-major markets 'require' more substantial ties because a T14 grad interviewing for a Boise firm is just going to stand out without a compelling story. But I think even in DC there's a level of screening going on to make sure the student has actually thought about settling in the region - it came up in one form or another every time I interviewed for 1L summer gigs, and I've got just about every tie to the DC market you can imagine.

(P.S. HIIIIII 2L FRIEND we survived!)


Sorry, I'm not clear if you're differentiating DC from NY in the ties required or not. DC = NY on connections? Or more substantial ties needed in DC? I'm not sure being able to intelligently advocate for a region is what people generally mean by 'connections', or is it? I assumed living there/born there/family there type stuff was what would fly in minor markets.

So is DC a NY or a Texas or an in-between?

Re: Diff. between DC and NYC Legal Market

Posted: Tue May 18, 2010 2:06 pm
by starstruck393
thesealocust wrote:
extragnarls wrote:What importance do DC firms place on market ties? My understanding is that ties are less important for major markets, and that DC firms could care even less than most since it's the most difficult market to crack and few would be looking to use it as a stepping stone for that reason. Can anyone offer any insight?


I talked to Dean Lawson about this, she mentioned that ties of some sort are pretty important, but it's more about holding an intelligent conversation demonstrating a desire to go to and remain in a region than it is having a sufficient laundry list of cold, hard 'connections'. But she made it seem like DC still required connections or ties the way any other market did... she said even New York did, but that saying you wanted to work on the fanciest pantsiest deals or whatever would usually be enough to placate them.

I think in general non-major markets 'require' more substantial ties because a T14 grad interviewing for a Boise firm is just going to stand out without a compelling story. But I think even in DC there's a level of screening going on to make sure the student has actually thought about settling in the region - it came up in one form or another every time I interviewed for 1L summer gigs, and I've got just about every tie to the DC market you can imagine.

(P.S. HIIIIII 2L FRIEND we survived!)


What counts as a tie? How would a SI fit in?

Re: Diff. between DC and NYC Legal Market

Posted: Tue May 18, 2010 3:45 pm
by Anonymous User
This past cycle, I would say that you needed pretty strong ties to DC to make the cut. DC was seen as the "safe" market, so I think pulled more applicants than usual. As a result, market ties seemed to be used as a screening device. If you had lived or worked in DC, that seemed to carry the most weight. If you could discuss practice interests that were DC specific (or specific to that firm's DC office), that also seemed to get you more attention. (And by interests, I should say *legal* interests. Political/lobbying interests could backfire (even at firms that have lobbying arms).) Without one/both of these things, DC callbacks/offers seemed pretty far between.

Also, there seemed to be a DC "type" this past year (at least at my school). People seemed to do either very well in the DC market or be locked out -- and it wasn't a matter of them not being competitive, because they were able to land competitive positions in other markets.

Re: Diff. between DC and NYC Legal Market

Posted: Tue May 18, 2010 5:47 pm
by creatinganalt
Anonymous User wrote:This past cycle, I would say that you needed pretty strong ties to DC to make the cut. DC was seen as the "safe" market, so I think pulled more applicants than usual. As a result, market ties seemed to be used as a screening device. If you had lived or worked in DC, that seemed to carry the most weight. If you could discuss practice interests that were DC specific (or specific to that firm's DC office), that also seemed to get you more attention. (And by interests, I should say *legal* interests. Political/lobbying interests could backfire (even at firms that have lobbying arms).) Without one/both of these things, DC callbacks/offers seemed pretty far between.

Also, there seemed to be a DC "type" this past year (at least at my school). People seemed to do either very well in the DC market or be locked out -- and it wasn't a matter of them not being competitive, because they were able to land competitive positions in other markets.


Very helpful. Thank you.

Re: Diff. between DC and NYC Legal Market

Posted: Tue May 18, 2010 6:06 pm
by RisingMichigan3L
Going against the grain here and saying:

You don't need any ties to DC. Just good grades. And I mean really good grades. DC is hard to get because it's super grade-conscious. That's the screening device. I don't think people give a rat's ass whether you've had some interaction with DC/VA/MD in your life.

Re: Diff. between DC and NYC Legal Market

Posted: Tue May 18, 2010 6:08 pm
by starstruck393
RisingMichigan3L wrote:Going against the grain here and saying:

You don't need any ties to DC. Just good grades. And I mean really good grades. DC is hard to get because it's super grade-conscious. That's the screening device. I don't think people give a rat's ass whether you've had some interaction with DC/VA/MD in your life.


What kind of grades would you need from Michigan to get a decent firm?

Re: Diff. between DC and NYC Legal Market

Posted: Tue May 18, 2010 6:12 pm
by RisingMichigan3L
Hmmm. Depends on how you define "decent." From mich, I think DC is a difficult propostion with anything below a 3.5. With a lower GPA, you're looking at DC firms you don't exactly want to be involved with at the moment (howrey, hogan lovells, etc.).


but tha's the thing, even the "sub-par" offices of DC are very selective. Cleary DC (Cleary is a great firm, but it's DC office is a non-player) is hard to get, for example. DC is just a weird place.

Re: Diff. between DC and NYC Legal Market

Posted: Tue May 18, 2010 6:15 pm
by starstruck393
RisingMichigan3L wrote:Hmmm. Depends on how you define "decent." From mich, I think DC is a difficult propostion with anything below a 3.5. With a lower GPA, you're looking at DC firms you don't exactly want to be involved with at the moment (howrey, hogan lovells, etc.).


but tha's the thing, even the "sub-par" offices of DC are very selective. Cleary DC (Cleary is a great firm, but it's DC office is a non-player) is hard to get, for example. DC is just a weird place.


What does 3.5 equate to rank wise? And what do you mean don't want to be involved with? Thanks.

Re: Diff. between DC and NYC Legal Market

Posted: Tue May 18, 2010 6:22 pm
by RisingMichigan3L
3.5 is probably top 20% or so. those are firms i wouldnt want to be involved with because i dont think id be "safe" there for numerous reasons. then again, ITE, an offer is an offer. the luxury of picking and choosing is not for us. But if I had a choice, I'd go to these DC offices: Williams, Covington, A&P, Jenner, sidley, gibson, kirkland, steptoe, and a few others i cant think of at the moment. but you get the idea.

Re: Diff. between DC and NYC Legal Market

Posted: Wed May 19, 2010 4:58 am
by fortissimo
Anonymous User wrote:This past cycle, I would say that you needed pretty strong ties to DC to make the cut. DC was seen as the "safe" market, so I think pulled more applicants than usual. As a result, market ties seemed to be used as a screening device. If you had lived or worked in DC, that seemed to carry the most weight. If you could discuss practice interests that were DC specific (or specific to that firm's DC office), that also seemed to get you more attention. (And by interests, I should say *legal* interests. Political/lobbying interests could backfire (even at firms that have lobbying arms).) Without one/both of these things, DC callbacks/offers seemed pretty far between.

Also, there seemed to be a DC "type" this past year (at least at my school). People seemed to do either very well in the DC market or be locked out -- and it wasn't a matter of them not being competitive, because they were able to land competitive positions in other markets.


I disagree with this. It's really just about grades for DC, really good grades. (I have a couple friends who landed DC biglaw with NO connections, just top good grades.) It is the MOST competitive market, always has been and probably always will be.

NYC is much, much easier to get. And from data I have seen, before ITE people with absolute shit grades (bottom 10%) at MVP could land NYC biglaw. It was never like that for DC.

Re: Diff. between DC and NYC Legal Market

Posted: Wed May 19, 2010 9:27 am
by T14_Scholly
RisingMichigan3L wrote:Going against the grain here and saying:

You don't need any ties to DC. Just good grades. And I mean really good grades. DC is hard to get because it's super grade-conscious. That's the screening device. I don't think people give a rat's ass whether you've had some interaction with DC/VA/MD in your life.


Incorrect. As another poster said, most DC firms ask about ties to the area when interviewing. They don't want to pay a summer associate who is only in the area to be with his girlfriend for the summer.

Re: Diff. between DC and NYC Legal Market

Posted: Wed May 19, 2010 9:41 am
by RisingMichigan3L
So wait, you're correcting me based on what some other poster said? And then you give a dumb reason to support it? By that reasoning, NYC firms require ties to the market too (because "[t]hey don't want to pay a summer associate who is only in the area to be with his girlfriend for the summer").

Moreover, they may ask for ties, but that doesn't mean it really matters. During all my NYC interviews, I was asked for my "ties" to NYC, yet NYC is considered the paradigmatic example of a market that does not require ties.