Leak your school's OCI data here

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D Brooks
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Re: Leak your schools OCI data here

Postby D Brooks » Mon May 17, 2010 12:22 am

:|

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FlightoftheEarls
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Re: Leak your schools OCI data here

Postby FlightoftheEarls » Mon May 17, 2010 12:44 am

Anonymous User wrote:
starstruck393 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Penn did better, given its proximity to NYC. Michigan relies mostly on Chicago (and Detroit for the small section of its class that wants to stay in Michigan.) Chicago was pretty awful. Chicago firms didn't really show up to NYU/CLS, but a lot of them didn't show up to M either, and those that did, it was extremely competitive.


No, NYC is Michigan's top market. Chicago is like second or third...


This may be true, but OCS has definitely said otherwise. That being said, OCS has lied about everything else, so I don't doubt this. They definitely steered everyone to Chicago, as that's "our market!"

I'm a rising 2L at Michigan and although I should be working on this law review write-on, I'm taking a quick break to respond to this. FIrst of all, I went to probably 8-10 OCS events (including each of the market series events) during the months of March and April and not once did I hear this about Chicago. The fact that this anonymous user is suggesting that Michigan relies mostly on Chicago demolishes his credibility. I honestly do not think it's possible that a single student actually goes to Michigan and thinks that Chicago is our primary market, and especially not because OCS is apparently spouting this like it's gospel. Another thing that tarnishes his credibility? OCS doesn't update the previous year's employment data until June 1st of each year, and even then it is spread as a 8-year median for each firm and market. Students also have a list of law firms where 2Ls summered in 2009 (but this does not list numbers of SAs per office, so there is no way to even compile last year's information off of that). I find it beyond interesting that this anonymous poster has suddenly "added up some figures" and figured out our offer rate for this year's OCI, when that data has not been release and is not even released in a form conducive to doing this.

If Michigan's OCI last year was a bloodbath, I definitely want to know. But I haven't seen anything to suggest this, and everything that this poster has written diminishes his credibility significantly.

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Re: Leak your schools OCI data here

Postby Anonymous User » Mon May 17, 2010 12:49 am

FlightoftheEarls wrote:I'm a rising 2L at Michigan and although I should be working on this law review write-on, I'm taking a quick break to respond to this. FIrst of all, I went to probably 8-10 OCS events (including each of the market series events) during the months of March and April and not once did I hear this about Chicago.


Ask some rising 3Ls. It was repeatedly said that unless one has a strong tie to a non-Chicago market, do NOT bid on any of those markets. "It's not the time to say you think you want to live in New York, L.A., etc." They repeatedly said Chicago is an automatic connection, given Ann Arbor's proximity to it.

OCS doesn't update the previous year's employment data until June 1st of each year, and even then it is spread as a 8-year median for each firm and market. Students also have a list of law firms where 2Ls summered in 2009 (but this does not list numbers of SAs per office, so there is no way to even compile last year's information off of that). I find it beyond interesting that this anonymous poster has suddenly "added up some figures" and figured out our offer rate for this year's OCI, when that data has not been release and is not even released in a form conducive to doing this.


Are you insane? Go download the Cumulative GPA Data for 2Ls. Now change 2009 in that file name to 2008. Only one year has passed - 2009's OCI. Where do you think the differences in the "Count" came from? They're the offers given to members of my class.

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Re: Leak your schools OCI data here

Postby Anonymous User » Mon May 17, 2010 12:59 am

FlightoftheEarls wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
starstruck393 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Penn did better, given its proximity to NYC. Michigan relies mostly on Chicago (and Detroit for the small section of its class that wants to stay in Michigan.) Chicago was pretty awful. Chicago firms didn't really show up to NYU/CLS, but a lot of them didn't show up to M either, and those that did, it was extremely competitive.


No, NYC is Michigan's top market. Chicago is like second or third...


This may be true, but OCS has definitely said otherwise. That being said, OCS has lied about everything else, so I don't doubt this. They definitely steered everyone to Chicago, as that's "our market!"

I'm a rising 2L at Michigan and although I should be working on this law review write-on, I'm taking a quick break to respond to this. FIrst of all, I went to probably 8-10 OCS events (including each of the market series events) during the months of March and April and not once did I hear this about Chicago. The fact that this anonymous user is suggesting that Michigan relies mostly on Chicago demolishes his credibility. I honestly do not think it's possible that a single student actually goes to Michigan and thinks that Chicago is our primary market, and especially not because OCS is apparently spouting this like it's gospel. Another thing that tarnishes his credibility? OCS doesn't update the previous year's employment data until June 1st of each year, and even then it is spread as a 8-year median for each firm and market. Students also have a list of law firms where 2Ls summered in 2009 (but this does not list numbers of SAs per office, so there is no way to even compile last year's information off of that). I find it beyond interesting that this anonymous poster has suddenly "added up some figures" and figured out our offer rate for this year's OCI, when that data has not been release and is not even released in a form conducive to doing this.

If Michigan's OCI last year was a bloodbath, I definitely want to know. But I haven't seen anything to suggest this, and everything that this poster has written diminishes his credibility significantly.


I'm not the poster who posted the numbers, but judging from anecdotal evidence, it was a bloodbath. It seems to me that around 3.5 GPA was the general cutoff (unless of course you are an attractive female or very attractive male), and you can see from the GPA chart that the MEDIAN for a lot of firms the last 8 years was 3.1. I know many, many people with 3.4's that didn't get jobs through OCI. And considering that 3.5 is about top 30%, I think the poster's numbers seem to make a lot of sense.

That being said, I agree that Michigan doesn't tout Chicago as the primary market. But I think they did push a lot of people to target Chicago because D.C. and NY were supposed to be so tough (but it ended up that NY wasn't as bad as Chicago).

And the bottom line is that it sucked everywhere. I'm sure Michigan did comparatively just as well as it always does. 2L's need to learn from this and start their job searching NOW. Small and medium sized firms, send resumes, and start making calls. The general consensus among law firms is that hiring will be about the same as last year, but maybe a little better.

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Re: Leak your schools OCI data here

Postby cigol » Mon May 17, 2010 1:41 am

edited
Last edited by cigol on Tue May 18, 2010 12:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Leak your schools OCI data here

Postby byunbee » Mon May 17, 2010 1:49 am

cigol wrote:Is it possible that we're seeing a push from a few people looking to get off of UM's waitlist by trying to spook those who are still drawing straws / flipping coins / self rock-paper-scissoring between a few squandered seat deposits?


Paranoid are we?

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Re: Leak your schools OCI data here

Postby Anonymous User » Mon May 17, 2010 1:53 am

cigol wrote:So let me get this straight. We have somewhere between 200 and 300 entities spending thousands of dollars each between travel expenses and opportunity costs of time not billed to come out to UM and only 260 offers are made? "Hey boss...I just partied in Ann Arbor for a couple of days on your dime but I didn't make any offers." Yeah...I'm sure that'd go over really well. The fact that budgets are very tight makes it even harder to believe that they'd send people out to recruit without intending to reel in a few acceptances.

Is it possible that we're seeing a push from a few people looking to get off of UM's waitlist by trying to spook those who are still drawing straws / flipping coins / self rock-paper-scissoring between a few squandered seat deposits?


Even during the post-OCI callback period, certain firm names got brought up as "just transcript collecting" - a firm would rather pay a few thousand dollars in waste to keep up appearances with a law school it has relied on and will rely on again.

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Re: Leak your schools OCI data here

Postby Anonymous User » Mon May 17, 2010 8:32 am

Rising 3L at Michigan here. Going to take a moment to respond to flightoftheearl's post because it's the only one that made me laugh:

FIrst of all, I went to probably 8-10 OCS events (including each of the market series events) during the months of March and April and not once did I hear this about Chicago.


So let me get this straight: Because OCS never pulled the hard sell on Chicago at THIS YEAR'S OCS events, that means they didn't do it last year? That's the most absurd reasoning I've read so far. Have you considered the (strong) possibility that maybe, just maybe they told that to rising 1Ls in 2008-2009, and then changed their tune for your class when the Chicago-slaughter at OCI became evident? Have you at all considered the fact that just because OCS hasn't sold Chicago to YOU, that doesn't mean that the OP is a liar and that OCS didn't sell Chicago to him? My goodness.

And yes, OCS did sell Chicago hardcore.

OCS doesn't update the previous year's employment data until June 1st of each year, and even then it is spread as a 8-year median for each firm and market. Students also have a list of law firms where 2Ls summered in 2009 (but this does not list numbers of SAs per office, so there is no way to even compile last year's information off of that). I find it beyond interesting that this anonymous poster has suddenly "added up some figures" and figured out our offer rate for this year's OCI, when that data has not been release and is not even released in a form conducive to doing this.


Wow man. Just go to the career services website and download the GPA/Firm data. It was just updated. I hope you downloaded last year's data too. That way, you can actually compare the numbers!!! Now that wasn't so hard was it?

You should stop acting so self-righteous and instead accept the reality that last year's OCI was a bloodbath, and that this year probably will be too. The data OP used is readily available to all Michigan Law students, and the fact that OCS isn't selling Chicago anymore doesn't mean they never did. I'm slapping myself as I write this, because I never thought I would need to explain this to an intelligent person.

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Re: Leak your schools OCI data here

Postby miamiman » Mon May 17, 2010 9:05 am

Just a quick, clarifying question from a 0L: was it ever reasonable to assume Chicago or insert other, major market was -- absent a prior connection to that market -- anyone's "home" turf?

I ask this only because at my sit-down meeting with U of C's career services, they suggested that my attending Chicago was not, in and of itself, sufficient to establish a connection to that market. This surprised me. Do things operate differently at Michigan given that it is a regional powerhouse?

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Re: Leak your schools OCI data here

Postby of Benito Cereno » Mon May 17, 2010 9:30 am

anyone have any info on HYS OCI?

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Re: Leak your schools OCI data here

Postby Hitachi » Mon May 17, 2010 12:42 pm

That Michigan GPA data is extremely far from complete - you can't use it to calculate offers given. Some firms don't report and they are only listed if there is sufficient sample size.
And New York is definitely the main market, to the extent one exists - for the most recent data (07-09), there were 148 firm jobs in Chicago and 252 in New York. With no ties to either, a Michigan student'll have an easier time in New York, I'd be willing to bet (because NY doesn't care about ties and it's just a much easier market)

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Re: Leak your schools OCI data here

Postby 09042014 » Mon May 17, 2010 12:46 pm

Hitachi wrote:That Michigan GPA data is extremely far from complete - you can't use it to calculate offers given. Some firms don't report and they are only listed if there is sufficient sample size.
And New York is definitely the main market, to the extent one exists - for the most recent data (07-09), there were 148 firm jobs in Chicago and 252 in New York. With no ties to either, a Michigan student'll have an easier time in New York, I'd be willing to bet (because NY doesn't care about ties and it's just a much easier market)


Can anyone compare this to last years report?

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Re: Leak your schools OCI data here

Postby Anonymous User » Mon May 17, 2010 12:48 pm

That Michigan GPA data is extremely far from complete - you can't use it to calculate offers given. Some firms don't report and they are only listed if there is sufficient sample size.


1) I think all the firms that did OCI are on that list, though there might be 1 or 2 that arent, but I bet they dont give as many offers, so it wouldnt alter the result significantly (i.e., there's a reason why they dont have a sufficient sample size, and I doubt they gave more than 1 or 2 offers last OCI).

2) accounting for your argument, OP adjusted the number upward by about 40 (i realize and agree that this is extremely unscientific). but you are right, there are several firms on that list reporting no increase in offers, yet i know peple who had offers there (and no they arent liars)

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Re: Leak your schools OCI data here

Postby underdawg » Mon May 17, 2010 12:53 pm

of Benito Cereno wrote:anyone have any info on HYS OCI?

well in case that stanford poster brings his bullshit here again, just remember "only two people don't have jobs now" =/= a 99% success rate at OCI

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Re: Leak your schools OCI data here

Postby RisingMichigan3L » Mon May 17, 2010 12:58 pm

underdawg wrote:
of Benito Cereno wrote:anyone have any info on HYS OCI?

well in case that stanford poster brings his bullshit here again, just remember "only two people don't have jobs now" =/= a 99% success rate at OCI


thank god you mentioned it. i simultaneously rolled my eyes and burst out laughing when i read the original post

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Re: Leak your schools OCI data here

Postby miamiman » Tue May 18, 2010 9:02 am

RisingMichigan3L wrote:
underdawg wrote:
of Benito Cereno wrote:anyone have any info on HYS OCI?

well in case that stanford poster brings his bullshit here again, just remember "only two people don't have jobs now" =/= a 99% success rate at OCI


thank god you mentioned it. i simultaneously rolled my eyes and burst out laughing when i read the original post


I don't think its inconceivable that S did that well. Alternatively, a good friend of mine just finished his 2l at HLS and he reported having a handful of friends who struck out. No idea if they get something subsequently, but definitely not sunshine and rainbows across the vaunted T3.

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Re: Leak your schools OCI data here

Postby RVP11 » Tue May 18, 2010 10:43 am

imchuckbass58 wrote:
hubtubrub wrote:can someone explain what this means to a 0L? I'm sorry I'm stupid... why is mich stat's bad?


Someone claimed there were 260 total offers at Michigan OCI. But, they are not evenly distributed - people at the top of the class typically get many offers, whereas people at the bottom often get none.

Someone else tried to estimate overlap by comparing to CLS stats. From this, they estimated 130 students received the 260 offers.

If these stats and estimations are correct, that would mean about 35%-40% of the Michigan class recieved offers through OCI. This would be really bad because that is much, much lower than previous years. If you do not receive offers through OCI, chances are you are effectively shut out of biglaw.


Is 35% to 40% of students at MVPB getting BigLaw through OCI really that much worse than anyone expected? Sounds about right to me.

IDK about "effectively shut out" of BigLaw - maybe you're shut out of NYC/DC/Chicago, but a lot fewer firms are traveling to distant OCIs. If anything, a higher % of big firm SAs are being snatched up outside of OCI.

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Re: Leak your schools OCI data here

Postby RisingMichigan3L » Tue May 18, 2010 10:49 am

I don't think its inconceivable that S did that well. Alternatively, a good friend of mine just finished his 2l at HLS and he reported having a handful of friends who struck out. No idea if they get something subsequently, but definitely not sunshine and rainbows across the vaunted T3.


I don't dispute this at all. I just took issue with legend's post and its intended implication. His conclusion didn't follow from his premises.

If we were to count how many kids are unemployed at CLS, the number would be similarly impressive. That's not the point, though. The point was to learn how many students got offers from OCI. Legend's post didn't really speak to that... at all.

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Re: Leak your schools OCI data here

Postby RisingMichigan3L » Tue May 18, 2010 10:57 am

s 35% to 40% of students at MVPB getting BigLaw through OCI really that much worse than anyone expected? Sounds about right to me.


My issue is that this wasn't what we bargained for. Many of us had acceptances at "superior" schools, but we choose Michigan because of fit and because we were assured that, even if there is a disparity in placement between MVPB and CCN, the disparity isn't significant enough to be worth worrying about.

But my impression is that ITE hit MVPB particularly hard. Think about it for a second... 70% of CLS's class received an offer from OCI, maybe 30-40% at M received an offer from OCI... isn't that difference far too much? I guess I'm just a little bitter.

I also think OCS set up the 2Ls' demise. OCS encouraged everyone to bid conservatively. The result was that everyone bid so conservatively that "safety" firms were over-subscribed. Because of that, the lottery was triggered, and many students who were relying on the "safety" firms to get offers couldn't even get an interview with them. On the other hand, we ended up with interviews at reach firms like S&C, which we bid at 26-30 (we would have shoved more "safeties" in there, but they started dropping out of OCI like flies in the months leading to it). We got interviews at those places because they were so under-subscribed. What was the consequence of all this? There were 3.8s interviewing at Schulte, and 3.2s interviewing at Cravath. Who got the shaft here?

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Re: Leak your schools OCI data here

Postby markymark » Tue May 18, 2010 11:15 am

RVP11 wrote:
imchuckbass58 wrote:
hubtubrub wrote:can someone explain what this means to a 0L? I'm sorry I'm stupid... why is mich stat's bad?


Someone claimed there were 260 total offers at Michigan OCI. But, they are not evenly distributed - people at the top of the class typically get many offers, whereas people at the bottom often get none.

Someone else tried to estimate overlap by comparing to CLS stats. From this, they estimated 130 students received the 260 offers.

If these stats and estimations are correct, that would mean about 35%-40% of the Michigan class recieved offers through OCI. This would be really bad because that is much, much lower than previous years. If you do not receive offers through OCI, chances are you are effectively shut out of biglaw.


Is 35% to 40% of students at MVPB getting BigLaw through OCI really that much worse than anyone expected? Sounds about right to me.

IDK about "effectively shut out" of BigLaw - maybe you're shut out of NYC/DC/Chicago, but a lot fewer firms are traveling to distant OCIs. If anything, a higher % of big firm SAs are being snatched up outside of OCI.



This. I know some 2Ls who struck out at OCI (at my MVP) and ended up pulling SA positions at biglaw firms in November/December.

Another thing I want to reiterate is that grades were not as big of a deal as I thought they would be. Decent number of sub-median kids with biglaw and a decent number of top 1/3 kids with no biglaw.

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Re: Leak your schools OCI data here

Postby motiontodismiss » Tue May 18, 2010 11:17 am

RisingMichigan3L wrote:
I also think OCS set up the 2Ls' demise. OCS encouraged everyone to bid conservatively. The result was that everyone bid so conservatively that "safety" firms were over-subscribed. Because of that, the lottery was triggered, and many students who were relying on the "safety" firms to get offers couldn't even get an interview with them. On the other hand, we ended up with interviews at reach firms like S&C, which we bid at 26-30 (we would have shoved more "safeties" in there, but they started dropping out of OCI like flies in the months leading to it). We got interviews at those places because they were so under-subscribed. What was the consequence of all this? There were 3.8s interviewing at Schulte, and 3.2s interviewing at Cravath. Who got the shaft here?


Both.

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Re: Leak your schools OCI data here

Postby of Benito Cereno » Tue May 18, 2010 2:27 pm

As an CLS 0L I'm interested to know how Columbia students look at non-nyc market fared at OCI. Clearly the fact that elite nyc firms are filled with CLS alum partners really helps Columbia weather the storm decently in terms of nyc placement. However, how is columbia placing in Cali and DC offices (where it usually sends 20%+ of its class)? Clearly CLS doesn't have the same deeply established network and name in those markets as in nyc, so how do columbia students fare ITE in markets where they're depending more on reputation/rank than deep network?

For example, I'm sure top 10% still did fine at Cravath, Wachtell, and Davis Polk but did any CLS students get offers from W&C and Covington DC?

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Re: Leak your schools OCI data here

Postby Anonymous User » Tue May 18, 2010 2:48 pm

RisingMichigan3L wrote:
s 35% to 40% of students at MVPB getting BigLaw through OCI really that much worse than anyone expected? Sounds about right to me.


My issue is that this wasn't what we bargained for. Many of us had acceptances at "superior" schools, but we choose Michigan because of fit and because we were assured that, even if there is a disparity in placement between MVPB and CCN, the disparity isn't significant enough to be worth worrying about.

But my impression is that ITE hit MVPB particularly hard. Think about it for a second... 70% of CLS's class received an offer from OCI, maybe 30-40% at M received an offer from OCI... isn't that difference far too much? I guess I'm just a little bitter.



I actually don't think it's that much of a disparity. In my experience (in knowing and talking to many transfers to MVP from T25 to tier 4 schools), somebody at Mich who is below top 35-40% would have trouble getting into the top 70% at Columbia. Thus, you would be in the same boat if you had gone to Columbia as if you had gone to Mich.

I don't understand your reasoning. You make it sound as if, had you gone to Columbia, you would have been in the top 35-40% because you were at Mich. Not true.

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Re: Leak your schools OCI data here

Postby Anonymous User » Tue May 18, 2010 3:14 pm

of Benito Cereno wrote:As an CLS 0L I'm interested to know how Columbia students look at non-nyc market fared at OCI. Clearly the fact that elite nyc firms are filled with CLS alum partners really helps Columbia weather the storm decently in terms of nyc placement. However, how is columbia placing in Cali and DC offices (where it usually sends 20%+ of its class)? Clearly CLS doesn't have the same deeply established network and name in those markets as in nyc, so how do columbia students fare ITE in markets where they're depending more on reputation/rank than deep network?

For example, I'm sure top 10% still did fine at Cravath, Wachtell, and Davis Polk but did any CLS students get offers from W&C and Covington DC?


They did fine (or at least, as fine as they did in New York). Looking at the offer and callback rates, they are not appreciably lower for non-NY firms than they are for NY firms. Of course the absolute numbers are lower, but percentage-wise it's about the same.

W&C did not provide data. There were 3 offers at Covington DC. Healthy amount from other DC firms (Hogan and Hartson, Jenner, Skadden DC, etc), 3-4 each at the big CA firms (GDC, Latham, MoFo, O'Melveny, Wilson Sonsini, Quinn Emmanuel), and several at big Boston firms (Ropes, Goodwin Procter). The only place CLS did not seem to do great is Chicago.

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Re: Leak your schools OCI data here

Postby underdawg » Tue May 18, 2010 3:30 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
RisingMichigan3L wrote:
s 35% to 40% of students at MVPB getting BigLaw through OCI really that much worse than anyone expected? Sounds about right to me.


My issue is that this wasn't what we bargained for. Many of us had acceptances at "superior" schools, but we choose Michigan because of fit and because we were assured that, even if there is a disparity in placement between MVPB and CCN, the disparity isn't significant enough to be worth worrying about.

But my impression is that ITE hit MVPB particularly hard. Think about it for a second... 70% of CLS's class received an offer from OCI, maybe 30-40% at M received an offer from OCI... isn't that difference far too much? I guess I'm just a little bitter.



I actually don't think it's that much of a disparity. In my experience (in knowing and talking to many transfers to MVP from T25 to tier 4 schools), somebody at Mich who is below top 35-40% would have trouble getting into the top 70% at Columbia. Thus, you would be in the same boat if you had gone to Columbia as if you had gone to Mich.

I don't understand your reasoning. You make it sound as if, had you gone to Columbia, you would have been in the top 35-40% because you were at Mich. Not true.

by this logic, everyone should go to mich if they have the choice between CLS and mich with a bit of $. given this data though, no one would (unless it's $$$$).




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