Northwestern Law Grad Can't find a job...

(On Campus Interviews, Summer Associate positions, Firm Reviews, Tips, ...)
Forum rules
Anonymous Posting

Anonymous posting is only appropriate when you are revealing sensitive employment related information about a firm, job, etc. You may anonymously respond on topic to these threads. Unacceptable uses include: harassing another user, joking around, testing the feature, or other things that are more appropriate in the lounge.

Failure to follow these rules will get you outed, warned, or banned.
hubtubrub
Posts: 90
Joined: Fri Apr 09, 2010 8:02 pm

Northwestern Law Grad Can't find a job...

Postby hubtubrub » Thu May 06, 2010 3:28 pm

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... ESixthNews

Many of you may have read the WSJ's article.

It's interesting... the article says nothing about why this northwestern grad couldn't find a job (it's kind of deceptive). I mean: low grades+everything else that may have been a factor.

User avatar
D. H2Oman
Posts: 7469
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 5:47 am

Re: Northwestern Law Grad Can't find a job...

Postby D. H2Oman » Thu May 06, 2010 3:28 pm

Was hoping this was a thread about Corsair and not a repost of the same article. Very let down.

hubtubrub
Posts: 90
Joined: Fri Apr 09, 2010 8:02 pm

Re: Northwestern Law Grad Can't find a job...

Postby hubtubrub » Thu May 06, 2010 3:31 pm

D. H2Oman wrote:Was hoping this was a thread about Corsair and not a repost of the same article. Very let down.


oh this was already posted?

Damn... sorry... someone want to delete?

User avatar
Mattalones
Posts: 537
Joined: Sun Dec 03, 2006 8:18 pm

Re: Northwestern Law Grad Can't find a job...

Postby Mattalones » Thu May 06, 2010 3:34 pm

hubtubrub wrote:http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704866204575224350917718446.html?mod=WSJ_hps_MIDDLESixthNews

Many of you may have read the WSJ's article.

It's interesting... the article says nothing about why this northwestern grad couldn't find a job (it's kind of deceptive). I mean: low grades+everything else that may have been a factor.

Yeah, I've read it. The NU grad is just the hook anyway. They did a decent job of speculating about what is to come, and that was the main focus of the article anyway. I wouldn't focus on that specific grad too much. He also might have been a huge, scary tool:
--ImageRemoved--

User avatar
stintez
Posts: 307
Joined: Fri Apr 02, 2010 12:55 pm

Re: Northwestern Law Grad Can't find a job...

Postby stintez » Thu May 06, 2010 3:37 pm

Anyone that has done any type of research knows that the job market especially for lawyers is bad right now, due to the saturated market. No matter what law school one goes to the odd of landing a six fig job right away are very slim. However, going to a top 14 school will give you the best odds. Going to law school is a very risky investment, anyone who does not think that is ignorant, rich, or lacks the information. Also the job market is not going to change in the next 2 years, maybe not even in the next 5 years. Moreover, biglaw as we know it in the past may forever be gone. That said there will still be a lot of very successful lawyers.

stalls
Posts: 14
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2010 4:06 pm

Re: Northwestern Law Grad Can't find a job...

Postby stalls » Thu May 06, 2010 3:38 pm

i actually know this kid and he's quite competent and the man. shitty luck...

09042014
Posts: 18282
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2009 10:47 pm

Re: Northwestern Law Grad Can't find a job...

Postby 09042014 » Thu May 06, 2010 4:02 pm

D. H2Oman wrote:Was hoping this was a thread about Corsair and not a repost of the same article. Very let down.


Lol I was hoping you'd be the OP and the link would be to Corsairs post history.

User avatar
Corsair
Posts: 3997
Joined: Mon Oct 19, 1981 12:25 am

Re: Northwestern Law Grad Can't find a job...

Postby Corsair » Thu May 06, 2010 9:14 pm

..

User avatar
redsox
Posts: 612
Joined: Mon Jun 08, 2009 1:40 pm

Re: Northwestern Law Grad Can't find a job...

Postby redsox » Thu May 06, 2010 9:17 pm

stintez wrote:Anyone that has done any type of research knows that the job market especially for lawyers is bad right now, due to the saturated market. No matter what law school one goes to the odd of landing a six fig job right away are very slim. However, going to a top 14 school will give you the best odds. Going to law school is a very risky investment, anyone who does not think that is ignorant, rich, or lacks the information. Also the job market is not going to change in the next 2 years, maybe not even in the next 5 years. Moreover, biglaw as we know it in the past may forever be gone. That said there will still be a lot of very successful lawyers.


This reads like the abstract for a terrible thesis paper.

LateNight
Posts: 136
Joined: Fri Apr 30, 2010 4:08 am

Re: Northwestern Law Grad Can't find a job...

Postby LateNight » Thu May 06, 2010 9:19 pm

So should I not go to Law School? Will my proespects be better with a Political Science Degree, can I land a 6 figure job with it?
:roll:

Most lawyers don't make six figures. I'd be happy with 55k and a pension.

270910
Posts: 2437
Joined: Thu May 21, 2009 9:51 pm

Re: Northwestern Law Grad Can't find a job...

Postby 270910 » Thu May 06, 2010 9:25 pm

LateNight wrote:So should I not go to Law School? Will my proespects be better with a Political Science Degree, can I land a 6 figure job with it?
:roll:

Most lawyers don't make six figures. I'd be happy with 55k and a pension.


If your goal is to be a lawyer and you know what you're getting into, go for it. Go into debt for it. Great country where you can achieve something like that even if it's not a net financially beneficial transaction - more power to you.

For a lot of people though, a big (and often only) factor is the value equation, which is looking poor for an awful lot of schools / grads these days :-/

LateNight
Posts: 136
Joined: Fri Apr 30, 2010 4:08 am

Re: Northwestern Law Grad Can't find a job...

Postby LateNight » Thu May 06, 2010 9:28 pm

This depresses me. I just want a job with the IRS.

LateNight
Posts: 136
Joined: Fri Apr 30, 2010 4:08 am

Re: Northwestern Law Grad Can't find a job...

Postby LateNight » Thu May 06, 2010 9:30 pm

And I think you are all forgetting about student load reform, which limits the amount of debt that you have to pay off each year to 10% of disposible income. The loans are also from the feds now, not from private banks.

User avatar
webbylu87
Posts: 659
Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2009 9:07 pm

Re: Northwestern Law Grad Can't find a job...

Postby webbylu87 » Thu May 06, 2010 9:43 pm

LateNight wrote:And I think you are all forgetting about student load reform, which limits the amount of debt that you have to pay off each year to 10% of disposible income. The loans are also from the feds now, not from private banks.


IBR will be greatly beneficial to help people who legitimately want to become attorneys for the career, not the money. That said I don't think it should be seen as a blank check to make bad financial and career decisions. I personally don't think anything outside of the top 100 is worth paying a considerable amount of money to attend. I definitely don't think anything outside of the T25 is worth sticker, but obviously these are my own personal judgments and everyone has their own qualifications.

I truly believe this economy has been helpful in diminishing expectations and controlling assumptions of law students (or at least those who choose to be well-informed). I'm of the mindset with LateNight that I just want to be an attorney. A modest salary in an area with a low COL coupled with IBR and (possibly) PSLF doesn't sound all that awful to me.

User avatar
Matthies
Posts: 1253
Joined: Fri Aug 14, 2009 6:18 pm

Re: Northwestern Law Grad Can't find a job...

Postby Matthies » Thu May 06, 2010 10:00 pm

hubtubrub wrote:http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704866204575224350917718446.html?mod=WSJ_hps_MIDDLESixthNews

Many of you may have read the WSJ's article.

It's interesting... the article says nothing about why this northwestern grad couldn't find a job (it's kind of deceptive). I mean: low grades+everything else that may have been a factor.


25-year-old student at Chicago's Northwestern University School of Law, spent the fall sending 50 resumes to law firms and government agencies, to no avail.


That seems to me to a big why. Shitty luck he did not get a summer offer, but 50 resmues over the fall is not exactly an extensive job search in a great economy much less ITE. i mean I know some people who have sent out that many resumes in day. Finding a job is a full time job. It can be hard when you get rejection after rejection, but hopefully thsi kid after rgaduation will get back and the horse and try again if he really wants to be a lawyer.

hubtubrub
Posts: 90
Joined: Fri Apr 09, 2010 8:02 pm

Re: Northwestern Law Grad Can't find a job...

Postby hubtubrub » Thu May 06, 2010 10:17 pm

i wish someone can facebook him this thread.

User avatar
Matthies
Posts: 1253
Joined: Fri Aug 14, 2009 6:18 pm

Re: Northwestern Law Grad Can't find a job...

Postby Matthies » Thu May 06, 2010 10:42 pm

hubtubrub wrote:i wish someone can facebook him this thread.


Basically what we are seeing in even T14 grads having a tough time finding jobs is the death of Cravth Model of hiring. Law students, and especially new grads need to be aware of what that means in simple terms: firms are no longer need, nor can afford as many top tier talent as before. It was unstianable before the crash, and impossible now.

The reason why, 2008 and before, T14 was a ticket to riches is because every Amlaw 200 firm pretty much followed the Crvath Model but there were not enough T14 grads, even at the bottom of the classes, to fill the need by firms. It was driven by the fact that under the Cravath Model firms billed more and clients were willing to pay more, for talent from name brand schools. In 2009 that all imploded and almost overnight the Cravath Model (for all but a few firms) died a painful death. It's no longer the standard model in firm hiring or billing. That is a sea change that most new law students and a very many recent law grads have yet to full understand or grasp. We are not ever going back to pre 2007 and we are never going to see the bidding wars of staring salaries like we did the 10 years proceeding that.

Several scholars predicted this back in 2008 when things were at their all-time best for new grads, they predicted even during those good times that the model could not sustain its self. Then bam the bubble hit and it killed it overnight.
So now when people say things like how can a T14 grad be without a job, or that guy must have bad grades its because they have spent too much time looking at old numbers and the old methods of hiring, without really understanding why they existed that way before, and why they are never, recovery or not, coming back.

For more on how/why and more important what new law grads need to understand see these links (written again BEFORE the crash).

http://lawprofessors.typepad.com/legal_ ... avath.html

http://www.abajournal.com/magazine/arti ... ath_model/ (in this second article pay attention the info about H&H I have seen them thrive during the recession here using the stragey that many firms are now adopting after the big crunch)

User avatar
rayiner
Posts: 6184
Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2008 11:43 am

Re: Northwestern Law Grad Can't find a job...

Postby rayiner » Thu May 06, 2010 10:49 pm

The guy had good grades and was no-offered.

User avatar
Matthies
Posts: 1253
Joined: Fri Aug 14, 2009 6:18 pm

Re: Northwestern Law Grad Can't find a job...

Postby Matthies » Thu May 06, 2010 10:58 pm

rayiner wrote:The guy had good grades and was no-offered.


This summer's no offers are going o ake 2009 look like candyland, its going to be a bloodbath I'm afraid, what was 2009 down to something like 69% offer rate?

270910
Posts: 2437
Joined: Thu May 21, 2009 9:51 pm

Re: Northwestern Law Grad Can't find a job...

Postby 270910 » Thu May 06, 2010 11:07 pm

Matthies: I have a lot of respect for you, but I've seen no indication of the death of the Cravath model. Plenty of grumbling, but a lot of firms have been rolling back their roll backs, etc... firms seem excited to get back to business, and I feel like you could find doomsayers about the cravath model from every downturn (even if this one has been bigger than most) over the last several decades.

I could be proven wrong, and I'm not calling you full of shit or anything, but I don't see the tea leaves the way you see them.

User avatar
DerrickRose
Posts: 1106
Joined: Sat Dec 06, 2008 5:08 pm

Re: Northwestern Law Grad Can't find a job...

Postby DerrickRose » Thu May 06, 2010 11:35 pm

webbylu87 wrote:IBR will be greatly beneficial to help people who legitimately want to become attorneys for the career, not the money. That said I don't think it should be seen as a blank check to make bad financial and career decisions.


omgthis.

User avatar
webbylu87
Posts: 659
Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2009 9:07 pm

Re: Northwestern Law Grad Can't find a job...

Postby webbylu87 » Fri May 07, 2010 12:04 am

DerrickRose wrote:
webbylu87 wrote:IBR will be greatly beneficial to help people who legitimately want to become attorneys for the career, not the money. That said I don't think it should be seen as a blank check to make bad financial and career decisions.


omgthis.


Even the most common sense assumptions need to be restated once in a while.

User avatar
DerrickRose
Posts: 1106
Joined: Sat Dec 06, 2008 5:08 pm

Re: Northwestern Law Grad Can't find a job...

Postby DerrickRose » Fri May 07, 2010 12:28 am

webbylu87 wrote:
DerrickRose wrote:
webbylu87 wrote:IBR will be greatly beneficial to help people who legitimately want to become attorneys for the career, not the money. That said I don't think it should be seen as a blank check to make bad financial and career decisions.


omgthis.


Even the most common sense assumptions need to be restated once in a while.


People think IBR is their knight in shining armor, that suddenly that makes law school a good investment.

No, it just means that so long as you continue working for a pittance we won't send you to debtors prison.

270910
Posts: 2437
Joined: Thu May 21, 2009 9:51 pm

Re: Northwestern Law Grad Can't find a job...

Postby 270910 » Fri May 07, 2010 8:50 am

DerrickRose wrote:
webbylu87 wrote:
DerrickRose wrote:
webbylu87 wrote:IBR will be greatly beneficial to help people who legitimately want to become attorneys for the career, not the money. That said I don't think it should be seen as a blank check to make bad financial and career decisions.


omgthis.


Even the most common sense assumptions need to be restated once in a while.


People think IBR is their knight in shining armor, that suddenly that makes law school a good investment.

No, it just means that so long as you continue working for a pittance we won't send you to debtors prison.


The real answer is definitely between the two extremes. You have to keep in mind that for some people being a lawyer (not a big lawyer, not a corporate lawyer, not a big fed lawyer - just a lawyer) is a well thought out dream that IBR makes possible.

User avatar
Matthies
Posts: 1253
Joined: Fri Aug 14, 2009 6:18 pm

Re: Northwestern Law Grad Can't find a job...

Postby Matthies » Fri May 07, 2010 9:32 am

disco_barred wrote:Matthies: I have a lot of respect for you, but I've seen no indication of the death of the Cravath model. Plenty of grumbling, but a lot of firms have been rolling back their roll backs, etc... firms seem excited to get back to business, and I feel like you could find doomsayers about the cravath model from every downturn (even if this one has been bigger than most) over the last several decades.

I could be proven wrong, and I'm not calling you full of shit or anything, but I don't see the tea leaves the way you see them.


Really? I think the evidence of it is all around us and you can open any reputable legal tabloid (i.e. not ABL, although even they posted about) and see a discussion of it. 69% summer offer rate in 2009, lowest in 10 years, much smaller summer programs, summer programs being canceled, defered offers, 12k lawyers laid of in 2009, 100 year old firms going out of business. Its pretty clear to me.

Of course the standard response is "but that's the economy!" which is kind of like saying you have cancer. It answers nothing, what kind of cancer, how did I get it, what is the cure? Same thing with its the "economy."

The economy lead to the bust of the Cravath Model which we can see by firms cutting fat everywhere. Its not coming back, big firms biggest clients GC's for large corporations are the ones driving the cuts. They are not going to go back to a model of the whole amlaw200 charging so much for training so many new associates. That would be like say as soon as the market picks up banks are going to go back to subprime lending. Everyone learned their lessons when the economy tanked, that lesson being unsustainable business practices are unsustainable.

The economy is going to get better, but firms have learned from this too, they are not going back to a bloated system once incomes rise. They want to be able to weather the next ficinal storm and survive. Cravath Model was not sustainable for the entire amlaw 200 before the crash, we are not going back to it after either. (Note some firms can and will still make it work, but my guess is we are going to see many former amlaw 200 cravath type frims come up with new biz models to try and capture/build on the general disconsent wamong GCs)

I think we are in the midst of a change in the way law does business. It does not mean the sky is falling, but it means that law students should pay attention to the trends this new direction is taking us so they can best prepare themselves for what's coming next and where the demand is going to be in large firms.

fixed links from above

--LinkRemoved-- ... avath.html

http://www.abajournal.com/magazine/arti ... ath_model/

http://dealbook.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/ ... iates-pay/




Return to “Legal Employment”

Who is online

The online users are hidden on this forum.